L.A. Times vs. Radio

[RicoGregg]

The Times disses on radio:

http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2008/05/broadcasters_dispute_time.php

 

[ofthevoice]

Just another reason to dislike the times! I'd take the Daily News over the L.A. times any day! (I even miss the old Herald Examiner!)

 

[hamNcheese]

2008. Budgets. Advertising dollars. you get the picture.

 

[Bob_Hudson]

I don't know: but "radio" should have a better response than the long convoluted stuff the association published on its website. The association sounded bush league by confusing the roles of the Times advertising and news departments and I just have to wonder about its stats about "On the average day, nearly 90% of the Adults 18+ in the Los Angeles market will spend over 3 hours with Radio." How do they get that? It's really hard to believe that nine out of ten adults are actually listening to radio three or more hours a day.

These kinds of sales pitches by both sides mean little or nothing. The big advertisers have their buyers who analyze the ratings, use sophisticated demographic and marketing data and then buy ads based on who gave them free golf and Disneyland tickets. The small advertisers, meanwhile, buy their ads based on who has the cutest ad salesperson.

 

[davideduardo]

I just have to wonder about its stats about "On the average day, nearly 90% of the Adults 18+ in the Los Angeles market will spend over 3 hours with Radio." How do they get that? It's really hard to believe that nine out of ten adults are actually listening to radio three or more hours a day.

The average weekly usage of radio by everyone 18+ is 20 hours 30 minutes a week. If you take off the 5.4% who don't listen, and a few more % of light listeners, you have around 23 hours per person of weekly listening, or 3 hours a day. Right out of Maximiser.

Frankly, I am surprised that someone who lays claim to the impressive call letters in your sig does not know, at least roughly, the PUR in LA (which is about the same all over the US)

These kinds of sales pitches by both sides mean little or nothing. The big advertisers have their buyers who analyze the ratings, use sophisticated demographic and marketing data and then buy ads based on who gave them free golf and Disneyland tickets.

Nearly every station in every major market is owned by a public corporation that must have governance in accordance with Sarbanes Oxley. Similarly, many large agencies fall under the same rules. And the stations that don't and the agencies that don't tend to follow normal business and personal ethics. Your suggestion at impropriety is both offensive and untrue.

Small business gifts are common in all industries; nearly everyone has rules about gifts that go beyond the normal and could harm the business.

The only "sophisticated market data" used to buy radio is arbitron and some reach and frequency software and job cost analysis software.

The small advertisers, meanwhile, buy their ads based on who has the cutest ad salesperson.

You may think this is funny, but smaller businesses look for results, not waitress candidates for Hooters, to make ad decisions. Like they say, the retail rating device is the cash register. Again, your stereotype is offensive, not funny.

 

[Shoot From Hip]

Actually, there are some business owners and agency principals and buyers who do verbalize preferences for AEs who fit specific profiles. Without violating privacies, I can think of one ad agency owner who would verbalize a preference for cute blondes as station reps; I can also think of one major retailer (a man who does his own commercials) who gets along better with other men...and they end up turning business relationships into friendships that include fishing trips, ballgames. ROI is part of the equation, but not the only part. People like to do business with people they like...and frankly, forcing an AE on a client is not usually the best way to endear the station or get the buy.

As to the LA Times controversy: the Times responded to SCBA by noting that what they did last weekend was a promotional piece, not a sales pitch or news story. I do believe they took advantage of Scarborough research to do an apples-oranges comparison. But given that the Times and WGN Radio are co-owned, I found it surprising that the Times would go so directly against radio. Most of us with a considerable amount of LA radio experience have pitched for years to companies that spend a lot in print to take that full-page ad or half-page ad and slightly reduce it, using the money saved to run a radio schedule at the same time...perhaps even promoting in the radio spot to the print ad for more details. The reach you get by doing so greatly expands the paper's likelihood of results. But it wasn't "do radio and dump the paper" pitches...it was "use both and increase your ROI".

 

[davideduardo]

Actually, there are some business owners and agency principals and buyers who do verbalize preferences for AEs who fit specific profiles. Without violating privacies, I can think of one ad agency owner who would verbalize a preference for cute blondes as station reps; I can also think of one major retailer (a man who does his own commercials) who gets along better with other men...and they end up turning business relationships into friendships that include fishing trips, ballgames. ROI is part of the equation, but not the only part. People like to do business with people they like...and frankly, forcing an AE on a client is not usually the best way to endear the station or get the buy.

The more unusual experiences stick in our minds because they are unusual, and not common. On the average, there are few of these experiences compared to normal, businesslike ones.

Of course you are right on personality matches. When I had GSM / DOS as one of my functions, we would take time at least once a month for the AE's to discard accounts where they felt there was little compatibility and to pick up ones other AEs felt the same about. Nobody gets along with everyone, and this always turned out to be beneficial as nonproducing accounts often started to produce.

But to insinuate most agency sales are based on gifts and, therefore, bribery, is going over the line. Whadda' ya think we are, pharmaceutical sales reps visiting doctors? ;D

As to the LA Times controversy: the Times responded to SCBA by noting that what they did last weekend was a promotional piece, not a sales pitch or news story. I do believe they took advantage of Scarborough research to do an apples-oranges comparison.

The inaccurately compared AQH for multiple radio stations with newspaper circulation, where they should have used unduplicated cume from Maximiser. Scarborough does not even produce the numbers the Times allegedly had. It was a media drive-by, pure and simple, with distorted and improper facts. Fortunately, I did not see the ad, as I religiously do not read the Times.

 

[Marv-L.A.]

The LA Times's coverage of local radio has been flat-out pathetic for well over three decades, not since the late Don Page was their radio columnist.

He also hosted an exceptional show entitled 'Inside Radio' which aired on Sunday evenings on KLAC, and just about every major radio superstar you can think of from the mid-sixties to the mid-seventies would appear on his show, four or five guests at a time, in what was a very fascinating and insightful program.

 

[DoctorWu]

I don't know: but "radio" should have a better response than the long convoluted stuff the association published on its website.

I have never understood how it is that the Associations that promote the communications industry should, itself, be so poor at actually communicating its message. "Radio Heard Here" indeed.

-- Doc

 

[DoctorWu]

The small advertisers, meanwhile, buy their ads based on who has the cutest ad salesperson.

You may think this is funny, but smaller businesses look for results, not waitress candidates for Hooters, to make ad decisions. Like they say, the retail rating device is the cash register. Again, your stereotype is offensive, not funny.

David, you may have been so long in the corporate offices that you forget what it's like for the local salesperson on the street. The best sales manager I ever worked for once told me "your clients aren't buying this station - they're buying you." And he was absolutely right. A likable, good-looking salesperson (male or female) can close a sale more easily than can someone who lacks those qualities. You know I'm not wrong.

-- Doc

 

[davideduardo]

David, you may have been so long in the corporate offices that you forget what it's like for the local salesperson on the street. The best sales manager I ever worked for once told me "your clients aren't buying this station - they're buying you." And he was absolutely right. A likable, good-looking salesperson (male or female) can close a sale more easily than can someone who lacks those qualities. You know I'm not wrong.

All sales is based on a degree of confidence and the development of a relationship. But no relationship will get a renewal if the campaign does not work; most direct accounts do not buy so many stations and multiple media that they can not tell the effectiveness.

By the way, I spent 30 years calling on accounts in markets ranging from New York (national) to Lake City and Talahassee, FL, so I've got a pretty good idea of the challenges and reality of sales, both agency and direct. Agencies use numbers as a metric, direct uses sales and traffic.

 

[Bob_Hudson]

I don't know: but "radio" should have a better response than the long convoluted stuff the association published on its website.

I have never understood how it is that the Associations that promote the communications industry should, itself, be so poor at actually communicating its message. "Radio Heard Here" indeed.

-- Doc

That's because local and regional radio associations are usually headed by some cute former ad salesperson who got where they are by being good at selling ads, not creating them.

Oops...... no, no, that's not right, not at all, gracious no, excuse me: they are headed by talented professional communicators.

 

[MusicMaestro]

Just another reason to dislike the times! I'd take the Daily News over the L.A. times any day! (I even miss the old Herald Examiner!)

Dittos to that! As a longtime Southern California newspaper reader, I have read 'em all-Herald EX, Daily News, LB Press-Telegram, The OC Register, Daily Breeze, & WAS a subscriber to the LA Times--and over the years, the Times has gotten worse as their rivals have improved. This is just another example of their decline in credibility.

 

[Bob_Hudson]

This is just another example of their decline in credibility.

Still failing to understand the difference between their promotion and news departments, huh?

 

[davideduardo]

That's because local and regional radio associations are usually headed by some cute former ad salesperson who got where they are by being good at selling ads, not creating them.

That's funny, but untrue. I've been a member of the AER (Asociación Ecuatoriana de Radiodifusión) the AIR (Asociaciaón Interamericana de Radiodifusión), the Puerto Rico Broadcasters Association, the Florida Broadcasters Assoc, the Miami Area Broadcasters Assoc., and participated with the Alabama association, the TAB, SCBA, Buenos Aires broadcasters association, and several others. In every case, the director is either a manager or management level broadcaster who does it part time, like the Arbitron Advisory Council members, or is someone with a management background, occasionally from a smaller market.

You have mentioned that you background is in on-air work. How would you know who manages the state and regional broadcast associations?

 

[TVC1500]

I know they type. 30 years ago they were a hottie cheerleader, then radio sales,
throw in some real estate background and bingo you got the typical regional
radio association president. Amazing that David feels like a mere air talent
would never be in the rareified air of a sales pimp with a badge.

 

[Bob_Hudson]

You have mentioned that you background is in on-air work. How would you know who manages the state and regional broadcast associations?

I was taught to read.

 

[Bob_Hudson]

I know they type. 30 years ago they were a hottie cheerleader, then radio sales,
throw in some real estate background and bingo you got the typical regional
radio association president. Amazing that David feels like a mere air talent
would never be in the rareified air of a sales pimp with a badge.

A "broadcaster", by the way, is someone who has never actually "broadcast." I spent many years in high-level politics and got to meet the heads of broadcasters associations and many other such business groups that mainly existed to do luncheons and give each other awards. They were - and are - mostly run by congenial babes (or former babes) who function as social directors. Of course, if you surround them with a large sampling of GM's and salespeople they do often look positively brilliant

Dave Eddie: what would the folks who've ruined this business do without you as their stats-loaded defender?

 

[davideduardo]

You have mentioned that you background is in on-air work. How would you know who manages the state and regional broadcast associations?

I was taught to read.

Obviously, you don't have first hand experience or you would know that the overwhelming and vast majority of those who direct broadcast associations, state, regional or market-based, are competent professionals who know the business and the issues that affect it.

Possibly your comment is just neanderthal sexist; women are slowly but surely becoming a vital part of the industry and I'd hope more and more take active roles in the industry associations and organizations. I hired my first woman GM back in 1972 so I am a proven believer in breaking that sort of stereotype that you seem to believe which is that women in radio are there for eye appeal and not for their proven intelligence, knowledge and skill.

 

[davideduardo]

A "broadcaster", by the way, is someone who has never actually "broadcast."

Many who did broadcast and who had the necessary skills moved into programming and sales and management; many who didn't simply liked what they were doing, but still others had no other abilities.

I spent many years in high-level politics and got to meet the heads of broadcasters associations and many other such business groups that mainly existed to do luncheons and give each other awards.

No they don't and no you didn't. Associations exist primarily to protect and promote the interests of stations. Take the FAB's two-time achievement of killing an ad sales tax in Florida as an example.... or the NYMRAD Radio Fair in NY which promotes radio to some of the world's largest agencies... or the radio fair right here in LA! The idea of associations is basically to promote the use of radio and to insure that local, state and national legislation that afffects broadcasters is reviewd and commented on and even lobbied against.

They were - and are - mostly run by congenial babes (or former babes) who function as social directors. Of course, if you surround them with a large sampling of GM's and salespeople they do often look positively brilliant

That's a demeaning, sexist remark. Using the term "babe" in a professional context tags you as a rube and a guttersnipe.

Dave Eddie: what would the folks who've ruined this business do without you as their stats-loaded defender?

The larger markets are dependent on transactional business, for which a metric is required. Otherwise, why would stations pay about $400 million a year to Arbitron for ratings unless they could be used to create sales? Agencies want more and more accountability, right down to posting... we can not live in your fantasy world today.