L.A. Weekly on the demise of Indie

[RicoGregg]

Not a word in the new Citybeat:

http://www.laweekly.com/2009-01-22/columns/the-day-the-music-died/

 

[Zeb Norris]

I'm not in the market... were they ever this nice when Indie was on the air? Newspapers, who compete for ad dollars, aren't usually nice to stations when they are going concerns...

 

[4UH8SIMBKAGN]

I'm not in the market... were they ever this nice when Indie was on the air? Newspapers, who compete for ad dollars, aren't usually nice to stations when they are going concerns...

Indie was probably the biggest radio advertiser in the "alternative" news weekly papers in Los Angeles. (Los Angeles) Metromix in their current edition also has this on their demise http://losangeles.metromix.com/home/blog_post/blipster-commercial-radio-in/909075/content

 

[scooty430]

The LA Weekly article is quite interesting. It tells the tale of how Indie started, which amazingly was just two guys who went to Amoeba and bought $2000 worth of records they liked and made a station in a few days. No wonder they had such a small playlist when they started!

Interesting to note they pretty squarely put the blame on PPM, though the article doesn't explain WHY they felt the station was undercounted with PPM.

Another interesting note: the guys who really ran the station did not make or conceive of the looping "goodbye message," and didn't like it when they heard it. That's a relief because it screamed fake and phoney.

The corporate guys should have given this station a chance to do a real goodbye. Apparently it was so sudden that a guy from the Stray Cats and another from Motorhead were left standing in the hall, unaware their appearance on Jonsey's show would not be happening. Why not let the station have a goodbye - do they really think the El Gato audience would have cared?

 

[davideduardo]

Interesting to note they pretty squarely put the blame on PPM, though the article doesn't explain WHY they felt the station was undercounted with PPM.

It is suspected that ultra-partisans of niche stations "voted" in the diary survey by putting in lots of quarter hours. In the PPM, this can not happen and listening can not be faked.

The corporate guys should have given this station a chance to do a real goodbye.

Lawyers seldom will like letting people who have been fired talk on the radio. What they say may even endanger the license.

 

[MarcR]

"It is suspected that ultra-partisans of niche stations "voted" in the diary survey by putting in lots of quarter hours."

Isn't that what happened with Hip Hop/R&B, Urban and many Spanish-language stations?

 

[davideduardo]

"It is suspected that ultra-partisans of niche stations "voted" in the diary survey by putting in lots of quarter hours."

Isn't that what happened with Hip Hop/R&B, Urban and many Spanish-language stations?

Really? In most markets, today, Spanish language shares are within a share-point of the diary levels.

And neither Black not most Spanish language formats are ultra-niche. Indie, with the "widely unknown music" format is an ultra niche format; low potential cume and, on top of that, a sucky signal.

 

[scooty430]

Interesting to note they pretty squarely put the blame on PPM, though the article doesn't explain WHY they felt the station was undercounted with PPM.

It is suspected that ultra-partisans of niche stations "voted" in the diary survey by putting in lots of quarter hours. In the PPM, this can not happen and listening can not be faked.

The corporate guys should have given this station a chance to do a real goodbye.

Lawyers seldom will like letting people who have been fired talk on the radio. What they say may even endanger the license.

Fair point, and corporations do like to play it safe.

I think, though, that rather than bolting the door and telling everybody Friday morning that they're fired, if people were gathered together and talked to like humans, and given some lead time, it is just a nicer way of doing business. I think most on-air personalities are professional enough to realize they will need to be employed somewhere, and trashing the company isn't going to help their cause.

I still have the tapes of when The Edge went off the air, and it was really classy. The employees knew in advance, and on the last day, they had the whole crew in the studio, and for hours they shared stories, played favorite songs, and took calls from listeners. That's the way to go out.

 

[scooty430]

"It is suspected that ultra-partisans of niche stations "voted" in the diary survey by putting in lots of quarter hours."

Isn't that what happened with Hip Hop/R&B, Urban and many Spanish-language stations?

I've seen a lot of media coverage saying that Hip Hop/R+B, and Spanish language stations had this issue, as well as listeners who are not eager to wear a monitoring device, such as illegal immigrants.

My guess on Indie is that "super fans" may indeed have written down the station more than they really listened. But I also think the station was truly losing popularity. At first, they had a good buzz going with Jonsey, and they played some great new music. (They were the first to play Green Day's American Idiot, for example, long before KROQ put it in rotation.) They were able to play Scissor Sisters, Modest Mouse, Franz Ferdinand, White Stripes, Ya Ya Yas.... And many bands they had all to themselves. But as time went on, there was little good, catchy, new music for them to play. I found myself turning on Indie and hearing new music that made me say, "Man, this is AWFUL!" And I had been a fervent listener since the beginning.

KROQ had a similar problem in the late 80's - new music was stagnant. Their solution was to play lots of old cuts, almost 75 percent. Then Nirvana and grunge came along and saved them.

Anyway, I think even the diaries on Indie were going down long before PPM came, right? I think PPM was just the final nail, along with the economy.

 

[gerald]

The corporate guys should have given this station a chance to do a real goodbye.

Lawyers seldom will like letting people who have been fired talk on the radio. What they say may even endanger the license.
[/quote]

If you were going to come up with a group of people who would be most likely to cause trouble on the air under these circumstances if given a chance, wouldn't it look like a staff photo of Indie? They would have nothing to lose. The FCC would go after the corporation, not the jock who has disappeared into the wilderness.

 

[Zeb Norris]

"It is suspected that ultra-partisans of niche stations "voted" in the diary survey by putting in lots of quarter hours."

Isn't that what happened with Hip Hop/R&B, Urban and many Spanish-language stations?

Really? In most markets, today, Spanish language shares are within a share-point of the diary levels.

And neither Black not most Spanish language formats are ultra-niche. Indie, with the "widely unknown music" format is an ultra niche format; low potential cume and, on top of that, a sucky signal.

That lawsuit in NYC wasn't because the shares stayed the same was it?

Not a rhetorical question; you know the numbers far better than I. But I find it hard to believe anyone would sue if their numbers weren't fairly seriously eroded once "voting" wasn't an option. Yet minority broadcasters got Cuomo to sue...

 

[davideduardo]

Really? In most markets, today, Spanish language shares are within a share-point of the diary levels.


[/quote]

That lawsuit in NYC wasn't because the shares stayed the same was it?

Not a rhetorical question; you know the numbers far better than I. But I find it hard to believe anyone would sue if their numbers weren't fairly seriously eroded once "voting" wasn't an option. Yet minority broadcasters got Cuomo to sue...
[/quote]

"Most Markets" is the keyword... and the issues, as reported, are related as much to cells, proportionality, etc., as to overall boxcar numbers. Arbitron generally, eventually, gets things right... but, using the example of language proportionality, it can take years and years.

I saw a case in LA where one station more than doubled its TSL to the highest in the market from just a single week's panel change. Makes one wonder how many meters there are for the cell that did this!

 

[Zeb Norris]

Ah. So in some cases, minorities probably DID use the diary system to "vote" for their favorite stations, just as Indie's audience likely did.

I think that is the point the other poster was trying to get you to acknowledge. It's good that you're a passionate booster of Spanish language radio. But if you're going to blast Indie's ratings record over this issue, it's only fair that you admit that some Spanish language stations have benefited from the same thing.

Can't say I share your faith in Arbitron. What is the delay in getting accredited? And if they're so accurate, why the differences between the diary system and PPM results?

Etc.

Just sayin'...

 

[davideduardo]

Ah. So in some cases, minorities probably DID use the diary system to "vote" for their favorite stations, just as Indie's audience likely did.

I don't think Hispanic listeners were voting... there are too many station choices in the large markets for that to happen. And it's evident from all the data that Hispanic listeners are less loyal than general market ones in those markets with a variety of choices.

What we do have is "rounding" and there are lots of cultural issues, but the bottom line is that diary entries in Spanish dominant Hispanic diaries tended to round to larger, more even time frames than non-Hispanic whites would enter. With the meter, both exact start and stop times become evident and interruptions do to.

The Indie listeners, being part of what I guess we could call an "affinity group" would be more likely to "give" more quarter hours as a way of supporting the station and the music itself.

I think that is the point the other poster was trying to get you to acknowledge. It's good that you're a passionate booster of Spanish language radio. But if you're going to blast Indie's ratings record over this issue, it's only fair that you admit that some Spanish language stations have benefited from the same thing.

Each benefitted in different ways from the unverified imprecision of the diary... one by hard core partisanship and the other by the cultural tendency to round to hours and, maybe, half hours, and not to anything less.

Can't say I share your faith in Arbitron.

"Faith" is a country singer. I'm skeptical enough to have even lost my faith in electricity, so ratings services are somewhat lower on my list. But, having dealt with IBOPE, INRA, Datos, etc., in other countries, I at least acknowledge that, defects and all, there are things even worse.

Yes, there is something worse than the diary returns for young adults and young adult males, as inconceivable as it may sound.

What is the delay in getting accredited?

That's a whole chapter and thread of itself.

And if they're so accurate, why the differences between the diary system and PPM results?

1. Sample size and population of discreet cells.
2. Rounding
3. Rounding
4. The diary measures three things, TSL, cume and memory.

 

[JoshuaEscandon]

I have to say the music was very cool! I wish I had the chance of being on the air at that station. Indie's radio signal was difficult to get at times. They had the same issue's at Mars, Groove, the other great but short lived AAA. I think they could flourish online.


Joshua Escandon

 

[Zeb Norris]

Ah. So in some cases, minorities probably DID use the diary system to "vote" for their favorite stations, just as Indie's audience likely did.

I don't think Hispanic listeners were voting... there are too many station choices in the large markets for that to happen. And it's evident from all the data that Hispanic listeners are less loyal than general market ones in those markets with a variety of choices.

What we do have is "rounding" and there are lots of cultural issues, but the bottom line is that diary entries in Spanish dominant Hispanic diaries tended to round to larger, more even time frames than non-Hispanic whites would enter. With the meter, both exact start and stop times become evident and interruptions do to.

The Indie listeners, being part of what I guess we could call an "affinity group" would be more likely to "give" more quarter hours as a way of supporting the station and the music itself.

I think that is the point the other poster was trying to get you to acknowledge. It's good that you're a passionate booster of Spanish language radio. But if you're going to blast Indie's ratings record over this issue, it's only fair that you admit that some Spanish language stations have benefited from the same thing.

Each benefitted in different ways from the unverified imprecision of the diary... one by hard core partisanship and the other by the cultural tendency to round to hours and, maybe, half hours, and not to anything less.

Can't say I share your faith in Arbitron.

"Faith" is a country singer. I'm skeptical enough to have even lost my faith in electricity, so ratings services are somewhat lower on my list. But, having dealt with IBOPE, INRA, Datos, etc., in other countries, I at least acknowledge that, defects and all, there are things even worse.

Yes, there is something worse than the diary returns for young adults and young adult males, as inconceivable as it may sound.

What is the delay in getting accredited?

That's a whole chapter and thread of itself.

And if they're so accurate, why the differences between the diary system and PPM results?

1. Sample size and population of discreet cells.
2. Rounding
3. Rounding
4. The diary measures three things, TSL, cume and memory.

Hmmm... who is being "disingenuous" now?

The New York lawsuit was because or ROUNDING?!? What were they doing... innocently rounding up from 45 minutes to 6 hours? Come on DE... I'm having a little bit of trouble swallowing THAT one.

But as long as you're blowing smoke with a straight face, perhaps you could explain how the weighting up of "ethnic" diaries is fair. I'm open minded... perhaps it IS fair... but on the face of it, one person's report counting for more than another person's report sure doesn't LOOK fair. So what's the issue there... Arbitron can't find minorities in Los Angeles?

 

[davideduardo]

[Hmmm... who is being "disingenuous" now?

The New York lawsuit was because or ROUNDING?!? What were they doing... innocently rounding up from 45 minutes to 6 hours? Come on DE... I'm having a little bit of trouble swallowing THAT one.[/quote]

As I read the state attorney general's complaint, it is about fair and balanced representation, both among specific age groups and for minority groups as a whole.

But as long as you're blowing smoke with a straight face, perhaps you could explain how the weighting up of "ethnic" diaries is fair. I'm open minded... perhaps it IS fair... but on the face of it, one person's report counting for more than another person's report sure doesn't LOOK fair. So what's the issue there... Arbitron can't find minorities in Los Angeles?

In a panel, the panel itself is designed to be proportional. If the market is 1.7% Hispanic Spanish dominant Females 35-44, then the panel is 1.7% represented by that particular cell.

In the diary method, the return of diaries from accepting households and persons is erratic, and if it occurs late in the 12 week survey, there is no way to push out more diaries if too few have come back or hold back if there are too many.

No diary is weighted any more than needed to achieve proportionality for all the different stratification variables it may represent. If "other" males 18-24 proportionally indexed at a .6 return rate, each diary is weighted up to make the cell proportional at a 1:1 ratio. If any group has more returns, the diaries in that group are weighted down.

No group's returns... or presence on the panel... is weighted to exceed or under-represent the proportion of that group in the rated universe.

You speak of weighting diaries and ask if Arbitron can not find minorities in LA... remember, there are no diaries in LA. It's a PPM market. And, in LA, "other" is the minority of course.