LABOR DAY WEEKEND 2009 - RADIO'S SPECIAL PROGRAMMING

[scooty430]

All songs have a chance? You mean every charting single released from 1955 to, for the sake of argument, 1989? That is more like 15,000 or 20,000 songs.

Problem with testing is that you only hear a snippet. How can you judge a song on that, other than to "recognize" it?

 

[scooty430]

K-Earth has now done three "Lost Hits" (some on here would call them "Lost Stiffs") weekends this last month. It must be a success. They are playing all kinds of older (pre-Beatles) and lower charting hits, 4 or more per hour. A fake countdown is easy to spot.

Just 4+ songs?? Wow, how many songs can a station play in one hour: 12, 13, 15? This proves greatly that the other 8-12 songs KRTH plays per hour, during the "Lost Hits" weekend, are not lost hits. It's just their reg. playlist music that gets aired again and again...boring.

I don't think K-Earth tries to pretend the entire weekend is related to the theme. They intro and highlight every "lost hit" as a departure from the regular playlist. Yes, 4 per hour aren't much, but it's better than zero per hour!

They have also moved past the "no pre-Beatles" rule which I think is a good step for them.

Unfortunately, CBS-FM for the most part no longer does "solid" weekends. They too will drop in a few songs here and there that fit the theme.

 

[oldies76]

They have also moved past the "no pre-Beatles" rule which I think is a good step for them.

Well that's good. A few from pre '64 is always a good thing, huh? By the way, K-Earth has done the A to Z the past few Labor Day's...maybe this year??

 

[oldies76]

They have also moved past the "no pre-Beatles" rule which I think is a good step for them.

Well that's good. A few from pre '64 is always a good thing, huh? By the way, K-Earth has done the A to Z the past few Labor Day's...maybe this year??

I heard it's a Top 500 weekend instead.

 

[davideduardo]

All songs have a chance? You mean every charting single released from 1955 to, for the sake of argument, 1989? That is more like 15,000 or 20,000 songs.

OK, for economic reasons related to the uselessness of 55+ listeners, the '55 to about '65 or later songs are out.

Then comes the PD's own judgement on "fit" meaning that things that are too rock or too Manilow will not be used as a matter of format design. Then you have stations that have a heritage in the format that know that "Yummy Yummy" is not going to do any better today than it did when tested in the 80's or 90's or earlier this decade. Unless a song, like Buttercup is in a big hit movie or TV series, it will not get better with age.

So, it's easy over a perido of years to find out about every single song that might be useful.

Of course, we have to discount a lot of things on the charts... as the charts were, until the single nearly disappeared, based on singles sales which is somewhat irrelevant (although at the time the only measure we had) and were HIGHLY distorted by all kinds of chicanery. Using charts is a guide to identifying songs... going to the listeners themselves is the difinitive guide as to what to actually play.

Problem with testing is that you only hear a snippet. How can you judge a song on that, other than to "recognize" it?

Many of us use systems where the listener has a computer with each song on it; they listen and score and move on to another song. The average time a listener spends listening to a song is several seconds less than the normal hook length in a group music test. Listeners know the songs that were hits in their era and need only a moment to decide if they want to hear each song on the radio.

When we use "dials" such as the ones used by the cable news networks during the elections, in a room of 100 persons, all dial movement has ended within 5 to 6 seconds of hearing a hook of a song, and that goes for practically every vocal-based format there is, anywhere in the world.

Constantly saying that the biased and unreal charts should be a basis for programming is unreal and unrealistic. Charts reflect an often biased view of ancient history. The important thing is to find out if a song is liked and enjoyed today, and that is what testing does. And then, don't neglect the role of a good programmer in combining the science with art to make an exciting, fun station... something that KRTH and CBS-FM both succeed in doing, even in these horrible economic times.

 

[scooty430]

All songs have a chance? You mean every charting single released from 1955 to, for the sake of argument, 1989? That is more like 15,000 or 20,000 songs.

OK, for economic reasons related to the uselessness of 55+ listeners, the '55 to about '65 or later songs are out.

Then comes the PD's own judgement on "fit" meaning that things that are too rock or too Manilow will not be used as a matter of format design. Then you have stations that have a heritage in the format that know that "Yummy Yummy" is not going to do any better today than it did when tested in the 80's or 90's or earlier this decade. Unless a song, like Buttercup is in a big hit movie or TV series, it will not get better with age.

So, it's easy over a perido of years to find out about every single song that might be useful.

Of course, we have to discount a lot of things on the charts... as the charts were, until the single nearly disappeared, based on singles sales which is somewhat irrelevant (although at the time the only measure we had) and were HIGHLY distorted by all kinds of chicanery. Using charts is a guide to identifying songs... going to the listeners themselves is the difinitive guide as to what to actually play.

Problem with testing is that you only hear a snippet. How can you judge a song on that, other than to "recognize" it?

Many of us use systems where the listener has a computer with each song on it; they listen and score and move on to another song. The average time a listener spends listening to a song is several seconds less than the normal hook length in a group music test. Listeners know the songs that were hits in their era and need only a moment to decide if they want to hear each song on the radio.

When we use "dials" such as the ones used by the cable news networks during the elections, in a room of 100 persons, all dial movement has ended within 5 to 6 seconds of hearing a hook of a song, and that goes for practically every vocal-based format there is, anywhere in the world.

Constantly saying that the biased and unreal charts should be a basis for programming is unreal and unrealistic. Charts reflect an often biased view of ancient history. The important thing is to find out if a song is liked and enjoyed today, and that is what testing does. And then, don't neglect the role of a good programmer in combining the science with art to make an exciting, fun station... something that KRTH and CBS-FM both succeed in doing, even in these horrible economic times.

I think the reason people stop moving the dial after 5 seconds proves my point: they are only testing very familiar songs.

Luckily, K-Earth is somehow rejecting the mindset you're articulating. They're playing 1955-1965. They're playing "stiffs." They're playing "Yummy Yummy Yummy." They're doing Chaka Khan "I Feel For You," followed by "Hello Mary Lou" followed by "Sky Pilot." And yes we still have to sit through Brown Eyed Girl, but I'll suffer that if I'm going to hear a real chestnut in my car.

The alternative: Brown Eyed Girl followed by My Guy followed by Unchained Melody. That's what the 'testing' suggested for so many years, and what sunk K-Earth (and is currently sinking KLOS.) It got unbearably repetitive and boring. Luckily, they are rethinking things. They have a way to go, but K-Earth is vastly improved.

 

[scooty430]

They have also moved past the "no pre-Beatles" rule which I think is a good step for them.

Well that's good. A few from pre '64 is always a good thing, huh? By the way, K-Earth has done the A to Z the past few Labor Day's...maybe this year??

I heard it's a Top 500 weekend instead.

I think K-Earth did the A to Z last November. Then a little later they did a Z to A. But I think those were the only two times they tried it. It was shorter than CBS-FM's epic one, but still very nice. By K-Earth standards I would call it radical.

 

[davideduardo]

I think the reason people stop moving the dial after 5 seconds proves my point: they are only testing very familiar songs.

Of course they are familiar.Nobody listens to a station with lots of songs that they don't know.

But, and of course you really don't know how a music test is done, we often put "ringers" in a test somewhere. The idea is to find bad respondents... if the ringers, which are bad, unfamiliar songs, get scored high, it is a clue to check all that respondent's scores... often we find that anyone who scores a ringer high either scored everything high (useless) or was just moving the dial or slider at random and was a bad recruit (this is just one of many ways to eliminate bad respondents in a process called "data cleansing.")

We also put in songs we know don't test with anyone. Once data is inspected, unfamiliar songs are seen to be the kiss of death. In perceptual studies, we see that the only reason to listen to an oldies or classic hits station is to enjoy familiar songs and to "feel" another era in one's life.

KRTH has added a percentage of pre-1965 songs, and the result is, after getting into the top 5 in 25-54 late last year, they are now around 12th or 13th in that demo... beaten by KLOS and with Jack, KIIS, KOST, KBIG and such ahead of them.

 

[disney fanatic]

I would love to hear "In the Still of the Nite" when it is still a number #1 most requested vote on CBS-FM's NY Top 500. It is still everyone's favorite for all ages.

I would never mind playing anymore rock stuff that CBS-FM doesn't seem to fit on the votes like "Radar Love" by Golden Earring, "Junior Farm" by Wings and the Tom Tom Club's "Genius of Love" and "Little Red Rapping Hood" which would sound a more WBPM-ish kinda thing, but it doesn't. We'll see what happens.

 

[oldies76]

Nobody listens to a station with lots of songs that they don't know.

If they are listening to a classic hits station, then most likely these folks were alive during the time these songs were released in their day on Top 40 radio, so they WOULD know them, or the majority of them. ie.. KRTH does not play "Welcome Back" by John Sebastian, but those who listen to classic hits, were alive in 1976 and would remember that song, if it ever aired on K-Earth. At least the mid to upper end of the 25-54 demo would for sure.

Now, would 25-54 tune in to Adult standards or pre 64's, most likely not, unless it's a hobby or interest.

 

[oldies76]

KRTH has added a percentage of pre-1965 songs, and the result is, after getting into the top 5 in 25-54 late last year, they are now around 12th or 13th in that demo... beaten by KLOS and with Jack, KIIS, KOST, KBIG and such ahead of them.

I'm willing to bet that the 55+ listeners tuning in, would have noticed this change to their favor. If such radio demo existed "officially", then these rankings would be much higher. Exactly why CBS-FM is holding on to these important groups by playing more pre-64's and some 50's on occasion, especially on weekends.

 

[oldies76]

Of course they are familiar.

These songs are familiar to the 25-54, only because that's all they play to begin with (due to repeated results of testing)...so yes these are "very" familiar to them....and so would be, the many hundreds of other hits that are not played, only because they have been temporarily forgotten by most, due to radio's inability to play them to begin with.

Exactly why, when a large theme is featured, like A to Z or a REAL top 500 countdown, many say..."Oh WOW" or "Man, haven't heard that one in years" or "Geez I remember that one, hope they play it again soon". It's reality David, it is.

 

[davideduardo]

I'm willing to bet that the 55+ listeners tuning in, would have noticed this change to their favor. If such radio demo existed "officially", then these rankings would be much higher. Exactly why CBS-FM is holding on to these important groups by playing more pre-64's and some 50's on occasion, especially on weekends.

55+ as a demo in Arbitron definitely exists, and is subdivided into 55-64 and 65+.

The problem, as I have stated multiple times, is that advertisers essentially have zero, nada, no interest in reaching this group as there is a poor or negative return on investment in advertising to them. So, for radio sales in larger markets, 55+ listeners are of no value whatsoever, as there is no revenue that can be obtained from having them as listeners.

CBS would not want to "hold on" to 55+ as there is no reason to from the business side of the station. In fact, excess 55+ makes media buyers question the usefulness of a station on any buy. And by moving this direction, KRTH has moved down about 8 positions in 25-54, and it will hurt any station, CBS Fm or other, that goes back to pre-65 music.

Again... stations do not benefit from 55+ listeners, because advertisers essentially have no interest in that demo.

 

[davideduardo]

If they are listening to a classic hits station, then most likely these folks were alive during the time these songs were released in their day on Top 40 radio, so they WOULD know them, or the majority of them. ie.. KRTH does not play "Welcome Back" by John Sebastian, but those who listen to classic hits, were alive in 1976 and would remember that song, if it ever aired on K-Earth. At least the mid to upper end of the 25-54 demo would for sure.

And my point is that KRTH does not play the song because it is familiar or unfamiliar, but because it does not get a positive response to "would you like to hear that song on the radio today" when listners are asked about the song and played a snippet of it.

An unfamiliar song would be one that was not a significant song when it was released... in other words, it did not become a hit. Songs that were played in any significant amount on the radio will be recognized; most of them have no appeal today, however. And that is why they don't get played.

 

[mjb1124]

So has anyone been checking out the RXP countdown? It's certainly an atypical one. "Stairway to Heaven" only ranked somewhere in the bottom 50, lower than a lot of titles that Q104.3 wouldn't touch. I would assume it's a legitimate ranking of the listeners' votes... either that or they deliberately made it go all over the place. Actually, if you weren't paying attention to the countdown numbers, you might think this just sounded their day-to-day programming, aside from a few really out-of-the box choices like Weezer's "Surf Wax America" and Prince's "1999". (Although I personally would rather hear Prince than Van Halen on this station.) Nonetheless, an interesting listen.

 

[BJSteigner]

I hope Electric Zoo happens....I hope Pulse stays on until alot of issues are resolved.

 

[scooty430]

I think the reason people stop moving the dial after 5 seconds proves my point: they are only testing very familiar songs.

Of course they are familiar.Nobody listens to a station with lots of songs that they don't know.

But, and of course you really don't know how a music test is done, we often put "ringers" in a test somewhere. The idea is to find bad respondents... if the ringers, which are bad, unfamiliar songs, get scored high, it is a clue to check all that respondent's scores... often we find that anyone who scores a ringer high either scored everything high (useless) or was just moving the dial or slider at random and was a bad recruit (this is just one of many ways to eliminate bad respondents in a process called "data cleansing.")

We also put in songs we know don't test with anyone. Once data is inspected, unfamiliar songs are seen to be the kiss of death. In perceptual studies, we see that the only reason to listen to an oldies or classic hits station is to enjoy familiar songs and to "feel" another era in one's life.

KRTH has added a percentage of pre-1965 songs, and the result is, after getting into the top 5 in 25-54 late last year, they are now around 12th or 13th in that demo... beaten by KLOS and with Jack, KIIS, KOST, KBIG and such ahead of them.

Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. The pre-65 songs are just a sliver, and mostly confined to weekends. The BIG change at K-Earth is adding 80s. LOTS of 80s.

 

[scooty430]

Kudos to CBS-FM. The Labor Day countdown is indeed "for real."

#204 - Beautiful Sunday - Daniel Boone
#192 - Mandy by Barry Manilow
#185 - A Summer Place by Percy Faith
#183 - Come Go With Me - Del Vikings
#181 - Can't Find The Time - Orpheus

No market researched countdown would have those tunes! Listeners win again. Consultants LOSE!

 

[Silkie]

Buddy Holly - True Love Ways

I was going to say it is definitely for real when they hit the 50s.

 

[pjc1961]

More Labor Day Weekend 2009 programming from David Hinckley's N.Y. Daily News Column of Thursday 9/3/09:

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...he_works_on_four_new_york_radio_stations.html

Note: He writes that the CBS-FM Top 500 would begin "tomorrow" (meaning Friday 9/4/09) at 9AM. It actually began on Thursday 9/3/09 at 9AM, took a break for the N.Y. Giants-New England Patriots preseason football broadcast from 6:30PM-11:48PM, broke again from Midnight-6AM on Friday 9/4/09 (overnight voice-tracked show), resumed at 6AM on Friday 9/4/09. The countdown will probably break for the overnight (Midnight-6AM) voice-tracked shows & public affairs shows on Saturday, Sunday & Monday mornings & the Dick Bartley "Classic Countdown" show from 7-11PM & Joe Causi's "Classic Dance Showcase" at 11PM on Sunday evening. This leaves just under 77 hours of "Top 500 Countdown" playback time (consisting of 2 runs through the countdown) from 9AM on Thu. 9/3/09 to just before Midnight on Mon. 9/7/09. The start/stop times were probably figured on this formula: 13 songs per hour x 77 hours = 1001 songs.