LABOR DAY WEEKEND 2009 - RADIO'S SPECIAL PROGRAMMING

[davideduardo]

I think he totally understands "stiff." All Partridge Family songs are, in your world, "stiffs." Yet here it is in the top 100 requests!

How do you know that the songs are stiffs? Have you been at a music test in that market where those songs were tested?

 

[davideduardo]

What accounts for people still being "passionate" about classical music? Nobody around when that music was current is still alive, yet somehow the Hollywood Bowl is sold out all summer for people attending classical music concerts.

Classical is a rare exception. It was taught in schools quite widely until the last 40 to 50 years, and at the university level, too. Parents who had learned to appreciate classical music passed the appreciation on to their children.

But in recent decades, the listenership has become decidedly over 64, participation in classical events has become very sparse, and public radio stations have switched from classics to talk because there are not enough donors who like classices. And commercial classical stations can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Classical is disappearing; it has little interest among most ethnic groups, and only has isolated groups of appeal left.

The SoCal area has nearly 20 million persons. It does not take many of them to fill the Hollywood bowl (capacity 0.01% of the market). That's a really poor example.

Is it so farfetched to think the music of the 50s, 60s, or even 70s, is good enough to be, like classical music, somewhat timeless?

It isn't. It's just commercial music aimed at the market for such music in each period of time.

 

[oldies76]

When are you going to understand the definition of "stiff?" It is an industry term for a song that listeners don't want to hear, the opposite of "hit." Both are used in present time. Lots of songs that were "Top 10" (whatever that means) decades ago are not hits today. And lots of them are.

Do you hear Partridge Family songs on classic hits stations? Do they test well? I rarely hear them either, so they must not test well, therefore they are most likely stiffs. It's an easy term to use. CBS-FM is not afraid to play these stiffs. Just listen to the countdown this weekend.

Like Scooty said, "Tracy" by the Archies in the Top 20 of the 500, is as rare as it gets. CBS-FM knows what its doing. KRTH on the other hand, is very, very reluctant to try new things, in this manner. Geez, they are even playing the same songs, based on the Memorial Weekend 500, just in slightly different positions for Labor Day. That's not how a countdown should be presented.

 

[davideduardo]

Do you hear Partridge Family songs on classic hits stations? Do they test well? I rarely hear them either, so they must not test well, therefore they are most likely stiffs. It's an easy term to use. CBS-FM is not afraid to play these stiffs. Just listen to the countdown this weekend.

If the songs were hated by listeners (that's the definition, by the way) they would not play them. Likely they are songs just below cutoff for regular rotation, and tolerable for the "optics" they provide. It's obvious that playing those songs sucked you right in! And that's the purpose... illusion, just like David Copperfield's Las Vegas act.

Like Scooty said, "Tracy" by the Archies in the Top 20 of the 500, is as rare as it gets. CBS-FM knows what its doing.

They also know that holiday weekends are dismal PPM performers, so out of the ordinary things can be done to create image without messing with the regular weekday crowd. That is a bit of a gamble, but one likely worth taking.

KRTH on the other hand, is very, very reluctant to try new things, in this manner. Geez, they are even playing the same songs, based on the Memorial Weekend 500, just in slightly different positions for Labor Day. That's not how a countdown should be presented.

The potential audience for KRTH is much smaller, given the extreme ethnicity of LA. So they need to protect the core... while it could be argued that CBS-FM can reach out and touch new people with its odd but "crazy as a fox" specialty weekends, KRTH can not. The potential for their format and their music does not extend into Persian and Russian immigrants or Hispanics who never heard a song in English where they lived in Mexico.

 

[scooty430]

What accounts for people still being "passionate" about classical music? Nobody around when that music was current is still alive, yet somehow the Hollywood Bowl is sold out all summer for people attending classical music concerts.

Classical is a rare exception. It was taught in schools quite widely until the last 40 to 50 years, and at the university level, too. Parents who had learned to appreciate classical music passed the appreciation on to their children.

But in recent decades, the listenership has become decidedly over 64, participation in classical events has become very sparse, and public radio stations have switched from classics to talk because there are not enough donors who like classices. And commercial classical stations can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Classical is disappearing; it has little interest among most ethnic groups, and only has isolated groups of appeal left.

The SoCal area has nearly 20 million persons. It does not take many of them to fill the Hollywood bowl (capacity 0.01% of the market). That's a really poor example.

Is it so farfetched to think the music of the 50s, 60s, or even 70s, is good enough to be, like classical music, somewhat timeless?

It isn't. It's just commercial music aimed at the market for such music in each period of time.

Gotta tell ya.....I went to the Hollywood Bowl this summer for a classical concert, and the audience reflected Los Angeles. Asians, Hispanics, African-Americans. I actually felt like the minority - same way I do at a Dodger game. So I think your assumption that only white people like classical is off base. Indeed, the LA Phil's new conductor is not white.

 

[scooty430]

Do you hear Partridge Family songs on classic hits stations? Do they test well? I rarely hear them either, so they must not test well, therefore they are most likely stiffs. It's an easy term to use. CBS-FM is not afraid to play these stiffs. Just listen to the countdown this weekend.

If the songs were hated by listeners (that's the definition, by the way) they would not play them. Likely they are songs just below cutoff for regular rotation, and tolerable for the "optics" they provide. It's obvious that playing those songs sucked you right in! And that's the purpose... illusion, just like David Copperfield's Las Vegas act.

Like Scooty said, "Tracy" by the Archies in the Top 20 of the 500, is as rare as it gets. CBS-FM knows what its doing.

They also know that holiday weekends are dismal PPM performers, so out of the ordinary things can be done to create image without messing with the regular weekday crowd. That is a bit of a gamble, but one likely worth taking.

KRTH on the other hand, is very, very reluctant to try new things, in this manner. Geez, they are even playing the same songs, based on the Memorial Weekend 500, just in slightly different positions for Labor Day. That's not how a countdown should be presented.

The potential audience for KRTH is much smaller, given the extreme ethnicity of LA. So they need to protect the core... while it could be argued that CBS-FM can reach out and touch new people with its odd but "crazy as a fox" specialty weekends, KRTH can not. The potential for their format and their music does not extend into Persian and Russian immigrants or Hispanics who never heard a song in English where they lived in Mexico.

I've only been to TJ, but I've seen film of bands like the Police, Queen, even Peter Gabriel playing to massive stadiums in Mexico City. How are these fans learning about this music, if nobody has any exposure to English lyrics?

 

[scooty430]

DE said: If the songs were hated by listeners (that's the definition, by the way) they would not play them. Likely they are songs just below cutoff for regular rotation, and tolerable for the "optics" they provide. It's obvious that playing those songs sucked you right in! And that's the purpose... illusion, just like David Copperfield's Las Vegas act.

David, I don't think you get how the CBS-FM countdown worked. It was voted on by listeners, they counted up the votes, and they played the tunes. It wasn't a carefully orchestrated "trick" with "songs just below the cutoff" spun in order to lure us into listening to Brown Eyed Girl. It is simply a list of the requests - end of story.

The KRTH countdown, though, IS a carefully orchestrated fake. Which is why I am not listening to it, even though I live here in LA.

 

[davideduardo]

David, I don't think you get how the CBS-FM countdown worked. It was voted on by listeners, they counted up the votes, and they played the tunes.

I have some beachfront property in Burkina Faso I'd like to sell to you at a great price...

 

[davideduardo]

I've only been to TJ, but I've seen film of bands like the Police, Queen, even Peter Gabriel playing to massive stadiums in Mexico City. How are these fans learning about this music, if nobody has any exposure to English lyrics?

Mexico City has 23 milllion persons. Several hundred thousand have gone to college in the US, and maybe a million went to bilingual private schools... but they are the upper middle and upper income classes, called A and B, in Mexico. Most of the people who emigrate are from the D and E classes, who, on average, have a 6th grade education. The ones who are well off do not leave their culture, family, friends and country.

There are radio stations all across Latin America playing English language rock, pop and AC... they are aimed at the upper socioeconomic leves, too. In many cases, the listeners don't understand the lyrics, but they just like the music.

95% of immigrants from L<atin America never hear any of the Krth music when they were growing up.

 

[davideduardo]

Gotta tell ya.....I went to the Hollywood Bowl this summer for a classical concert, and the audience reflected Los Angeles. Asians, Hispanics, African-Americans. I actually felt like the minority - same way I do at a Dodger game. So I think your assumption that only white people like classical is off base. Indeed, the LA Phil's new conductor is not white.

Funding for LA classical music events is way down. But the real point is that LA is not representative of the rest of the US... where music appreciation, broadcast classical programs, etc., are now reduced or disappearing. The interest in classical expressed as a percentage of the population is minimal and decreasing.

And, as I said, putting 17,000 persons in the Bowl in an area of 20 million is nothing. The Iranian community could do it by bringing in the top singers in Farsi...

 

[bigtom101]

I have some beachfront property in Burkina Faso I'd like to sell to you at a great price...

I don't dispute that most countdowns are an illusion - but with some of the songs I've heard ("Indiana Wants Me", Hermans Hermits version of "Silhouettes", "Smooth" by Santana & Rob Thomas, and "Strangers In The Night") it sounds like CBS-FM actually used listener input in the countdown. And a nice smattering of tunes were 50's and early 60's - something that is very rare for any "Classic Hits" station to play.

Countdown sounds great so far, "Indiana Wants Me" aside.

 

[oldies76]

I have some beachfront property in Burkina Faso I'd like to sell to you at a great price...

But.......You can make out the fundamental differences between the Top 500's that KRTH and CBS-FM are presenting, right?? One is apples and the other oranges. One black, one white.

 

[oldies76]

it sounds like CBS-FM actually used listener input in the countdown.

An idea, all classic hits & oldies stations should utilize...it works and sounds good!

 

[davideduardo]

But.......You can make out the fundamental differences between the Top 500's that KRTH and CBS-FM are presenting, right?? One is apples and the other oranges. One black, one white.

Yes, and one right for LA and one right for NY.

 

[pjc1961]

The full list of WCBS-FM New York's Top 500 Countdown for Labor Day Weekend 2009 can be found here: http://wcbsfm.com/pages/5118510.php. The "missing song" from my original posting of the Top 101 of the list was at #51: My Way (Live) - Elvis Presley - 1977.

After I gave it a close look: when you consider that the list was based on voting thru the CBS-FM website (which used to mean that the users would skew younger; probably not so much now), you'd have to think that more titles from the 1980's/1990's/dare I say 2000's would have been voted for & placed on this countdown, especially with the expected decline in 1950's/early 1960's titles.
I'd have trouble giving total credit to the voters who would be so focused as to vote right in step with what is mostly CBS-FM's usual programming:

-just the right sprinkling of 1950's tunes (mostly Elvis Presley & Buddy Holly) without "(We're Gonna) Rock Around The Clock" by Bill Haley & His Comets - 1955, a countdown standard bearer, but...ok, I'll let that one slide...older classics do drop off these lists at some point;
-a large block of songs focused on the years 1962-1979 with a few "Oh Wow!" titles thrown in for good measure;
-just the right sprinkling of 1980's tunes (more than on past lists but not overwhelming), with an expected larger than normal dose of Michael Jackson songs (including #1);
-the only 1990's/2000's titles are #327 "Smooth" by Santana feat. Rob Thomas - 1999/2000 & #175 "A Little Less Conversation" by Elvis Presley vs. JXL - 2002 (just because the songs are by heritage artists in the format);
-a few "classic rock" tracks that one wouldn't normally associate with this format or with CBS-FM in particular (although some have aired on the "A-Z"/"Z-A" countdowns) such as #68 Scenes From An Italian Restaurant - Billy Joel - 1977, #156 Baba O'Riley - The Who - 1971, #184 Sympathy For The Devil - The Rolling Stones - 1968, #202 Free Bird - Lynyrd Skynyrd - 1974/75 (single)/1973 (album) [may have appeared on previous lists], #257 Won't Get Fooled Again - The Who - 1971 [may have appeared on previous lists], #356 Gimme Shelter - The Rolling Stones - 1969, # 406 New York State Of Mind - Billy Joel - 1976 [this one gets a pass since I'm certain it's appeared on previous lists, especially being by a local artist, of local interest & post-9/11], #440 Funeral For A Friend/Love Lies Bleeding - Elton John - 1973.

High placements for songs like #13 Tracy - The Cuff Links - 1969, #34 Sky High - Jigsaw - 1975/76 & #55 Sweet City Woman - The Stampeders - 1971 and some others smack of internet over-voting, although some of these songs have received regular play on CBS-FM, so maybe they're somewhat legit.

Breakdown of songs by decade: 1950's = 27, 1960's = 197, 1970's = 224, 1980's = 50, 1990's = 1, 2000's = 1.

While there's definitely turnover on the CBS-FM list from approximately 8+ years ago (the last time it was "officially" listener voted), it seems the older songs have been replaced with not-quite-as-old songs or other songs from the same time period (mostly 1970's), rather than something more recent. In the early versions of the CBS-FM Top 500 (1973-1975-1977), it would be commonplace to see more current, top-of-mind fickle selections on the list, keeping in mind that the oldies format of that period had a total of 18-22 years of music to draw from, as opposed to the (theoretical) 55 years now. Not that I'd want today's oldies/classic hits station to have an all-time countdown that looked like the people voting for it were all listeners of current contemporary hit radio. ["That was the #2 Song Of All Time: I Gotta Feeling by The Black Eyed Peas, now here's #1 Of All Time: Boom Boom Pow by The Black Eyed Peas!!!"]
If you're looking for almost complete stagnancy, look at the Top 100-200 on most Classic Rock stations listener-selected lists: virtually the same warhorses appear year after year, slightly reshuffled, with the average year probably around 1971-1973.

As much as we'd like to believe that these countdowns are on the up & up and totally listener-selected, it's easy to figure that stations have filters in place to remove songs that "are not consistent with the format" (paraphrasing an old pre-2005 CBS-FM disclaimer used during the now-discontinued weekly Top 20 Countdown specialty show). Just by accident there should be more songs from the past 20 years on this year's list. Then again, the station plays very few songs from this period, so the argument could be made that their loyal audience is unfamiliar with most of these songs & thus won't vote for them. It can't be that all of CBS-FM's listeners are over 35, or are they? This points out the Catch-22 that this format is in: how to move forward in time while largely ignoring the last 20+ years (and growing) of CHR music which should be part of the oldies/classic hits of today while also trying to grab a younger audience. Of course a case could be made that unlike the early days of oldies stations (early 1970's) there are more stations/formats available now for the music of the past 20+ years besides the oldies/classic hits outlets, what with the various forms of the A/C format plus (to a lesser degree) classic rock.

As written by our friend David Eduardo:

David, I don't think you get how the CBS-FM countdown worked. It was voted on by listeners, they counted up the votes, and they played the tunes.

I have some beachfront property in Burkina Faso I'd like to sell to you at a great price...

 

[davideduardo]

I'd have trouble giving total credit to the voters who would be so focused as to vote right in step with what is mostly CBS-FM's usual programming:

Thank you for the very complete analysis by era and genre.. that took some time to do, and it gives some clarity to the discussion... all 10 pages of it!

 

[scooty430]

David, I don't think you get how the CBS-FM countdown worked. It was voted on by listeners, they counted up the votes, and they played the tunes.

I have some beachfront property in Burkina Faso I'd like to sell to you at a great price...

This countdown is simply too all over the place to have been put together on purpose by programmers. They just would not have chosen some of these songs. It's possible, but really unlikely.

Give ya another example. All of the "top 100" and "top 500" lists CBS-FM usually does (the non listener voted ones) are based on......good ol' chart performance (ooo, I know how much you HATE those evil old charts, David!) That is why the #1 song of all time on the CBS countdown is "A Summer Place." Even the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and all-time Christmas countdowns they did last year were all based on chart performance, 100 percent. And if you want another example, the Top 20 countdowns were always based on local NYC charts from the past, stiffs and all.

All of this tells me that the station tries to be authentic in its specialty programming. Thus there is no reason to doubt this countdown, too, is "real."

 

[scooty430]

Gotta tell ya.....I went to the Hollywood Bowl this summer for a classical concert, and the audience reflected Los Angeles. Asians, Hispanics, African-Americans. I actually felt like the minority - same way I do at a Dodger game. So I think your assumption that only white people like classical is off base. Indeed, the LA Phil's new conductor is not white.

Funding for LA classical music events is way down. But the real point is that LA is not representative of the rest of the US... where music appreciation, broadcast classical programs, etc., are now reduced or disappearing. The interest in classical expressed as a percentage of the population is minimal and decreasing.

And, as I said, putting 17,000 persons in the Bowl in an area of 20 million is nothing. The Iranian community could do it by bringing in the top singers in Farsi...

Could they do it all summer? The Bowl has concerts all season. Is it the same 17,000 people going the whole time?

 

[scooty430]

But.......You can make out the fundamental differences between the Top 500's that KRTH and CBS-FM are presenting, right?? One is apples and the other oranges. One black, one white.

Yes, and one right for LA and one right for NY.

Actually, it would be fantastic if they had a real countdown in LA. The NY one has plenty of Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel, Four Seasons, doo wop, and other things that wonderfully represent NY.

Our countdown could have more Beach Boys, local surf music, "Sauvecitio," Love (the band,) maybe more Eagles, more Doors, more Santana, some of the local garage bands that had hits....and for the 80s.....some Go-Gos. Let's go Jhani, you have whetted our appetite with these A to Z and Lost Hits weekends.....how about an authentic voted countdown for Los Angeles?

 

[scooty430]

The full list of WCBS-FM New York's Top 500 Countdown for Labor Day Weekend 2009 can be found here: http://wcbsfm.com/pages/5118510.php. The "missing song" from my original posting of the Top 101 of the list was at #51: My Way (Live) - Elvis Presley - 1977.

After I gave it a close look: when you consider that the list was based on voting thru the CBS-FM website (which used to mean that the users would skew younger; probably not so much now), you'd have to think that more titles from the 1980's/1990's/dare I say 2000's would have been voted for & placed on this countdown, especially with the expected decline in 1950's/early 1960's titles.
I'd have trouble giving total credit to the voters who would be so focused as to vote right in step with what is mostly CBS-FM's usual programming:

-just the right sprinkling of 1950's tunes (mostly Elvis Presley & Buddy Holly) without "(We're Gonna) Rock Around The Clock" by Bill Haley & His Comets - 1955, a countdown standard bearer, but...ok, I'll let that one slide...older classics do drop off these lists at some point;
-a large block of songs focused on the years 1962-1979 with a few "Oh Wow!" titles thrown in for good measure;
-just the right sprinkling of 1980's tunes (more than on past lists but not overwhelming), with an expected larger than normal dose of Michael Jackson songs (including #1);
-the only 1990's/2000's titles are #327 "Smooth" by Santana feat. Rob Thomas - 1999/2000 & #175 "A Little Less Conversation" by Elvis Presley vs. JXL - 2002 (just because the songs are by heritage artists in the format);
-a few "classic rock" tracks that one wouldn't normally associate with this format or with CBS-FM in particular (although some have aired on the "A-Z"/"Z-A" countdowns) such as #68 Scenes From An Italian Restaurant - Billy Joel - 1977, #156 Baba O'Riley - The Who - 1971, #184 Sympathy For The Devil - The Rolling Stones - 1968, #202 Free Bird - Lynyrd Skynyrd - 1974/75 (single)/1973 (album) [may have appeared on previous lists], #257 Won't Get Fooled Again - The Who - 1971 [may have appeared on previous lists], #356 Gimme Shelter - The Rolling Stones - 1969, # 406 New York State Of Mind - Billy Joel - 1976 [this one gets a pass since I'm certain it's appeared on previous lists, especially being by a local artist, of local interest & post-9/11], #440 Funeral For A Friend/Love Lies Bleeding - Elton John - 1973.

High placements for songs like #13 Tracy - The Cuff Links - 1969, #34 Sky High - Jigsaw - 1975/76 & #55 Sweet City Woman - The Stampeders - 1971 and some others smack of internet over-voting, although some of these songs have received regular play on CBS-FM, so maybe they're somewhat legit.

Breakdown of songs by decade: 1950's = 27, 1960's = 197, 1970's = 224, 1980's = 50, 1990's = 1, 2000's = 1.

While there's definitely turnover on the CBS-FM list from approximately 8+ years ago (the last time it was "officially" listener voted), it seems the older songs have been replaced with not-quite-as-old songs or other songs from the same time period (mostly 1970's), rather than something more recent. In the early versions of the CBS-FM Top 500 (1973-1975-1977), it would be commonplace to see more current, top-of-mind fickle selections on the list, keeping in mind that the oldies format of that period had a total of 18-22 years of music to draw from, as opposed to the (theoretical) 55 years now. Not that I'd want today's oldies/classic hits station to have an all-time countdown that looked like the people voting for it were all listeners of current contemporary hit radio. ["That was the #2 Song Of All Time: I Gotta Feeling by The Black Eyed Peas, now here's #1 Of All Time: Boom Boom Pow by The Black Eyed Peas!!!"]
If you're looking for almost complete stagnancy, look at the Top 100-200 on most Classic Rock stations listener-selected lists: virtually the same warhorses appear year after year, slightly reshuffled, with the average year probably around 1971-1973.

As much as we'd like to believe that these countdowns are on the up & up and totally listener-selected, it's easy to figure that stations have filters in place to remove songs that "are not consistent with the format" (paraphrasing an old pre-2005 CBS-FM disclaimer used during the now-discontinued weekly Top 20 Countdown specialty show). Just by accident there should be more songs from the past 20 years on this year's list. Then again, the station plays very few songs from this period, so the argument could be made that their loyal audience is unfamiliar with most of these songs & thus won't vote for them. It can't be that all of CBS-FM's listeners are over 35, or are they? This points out the Catch-22 that this format is in: how to move forward in time while largely ignoring the last 20+ years (and growing) of CHR music which should be part of the oldies/classic hits of today while also trying to grab a younger audience. Of course a case could be made that unlike the early days of oldies stations (early 1970's) there are more stations/formats available now for the music of the past 20+ years besides the oldies/classic hits outlets, what with the various forms of the A/C format plus (to a lesser degree) classic rock.

As written by our friend David Eduardo:

David, I don't think you get how the CBS-FM countdown worked. It was voted on by listeners, they counted up the votes, and they played the tunes.

I have some beachfront property in Burkina Faso I'd like to sell to you at a great price...

Good analysis, and it's possible the whole thing was calculated. But my gut tells me the countdown is for real. Sticking "Tracy" in there, up so high, I think says it all. There is simply no reason whatsoever to have done that on purpose - none. Clearly it was just someone who went nuts voting online over and over! (Hey, good for him or her. The rules allow it.)