LABOR DAY WEEKEND 2009 - RADIO'S SPECIAL PROGRAMMING

[oldies76]

Our countdown could have more Beach Boys, local surf music, "Sauvecitio," Love (the band,) maybe more Eagles, more Doors, more Santana, some of the local garage bands that had hits....and for the 80s.....some Go-Gos. Let's go Jhani, you have whetted our appetite with these A to Z and Lost Hits weekends.....how about an authentic voted countdown for Los Angeles?

I think KRTH is really reluctant to go in depth like CBS-FM's countdown. It's just an unfortunate fact of life for L.A.'s residents tuning into the only station that plays older hits and can only hear 5% of what's truely out there. Someday, they'll wake up and get with the times.

Oh by the way, even if KRTH ever did promote an authentic voted countdown, they'll most likely eliminate all the songs voted that isn't kosher with their "sound" and we'd back at square one once again. Oh well

 

[davideduardo]

I think KRTH is really reluctant to go in depth like CBS-FM's countdown. It's just an unfortunate fact of life for L.A.'s residents tuning into the only station that plays older hits and can only hear 5% of what's truely out there. Someday, they'll wake up and get with the times.

Here's the thing at the bottom of your misunderstanding of radio programming:

Radio must play songs that the large majority of the potential targeted listeners will like.

That fact eliminates most songs that have gotten radio airplay over the period between, let's say, 1955 and 1985.

First, if the station targets somewhere in 25-54 (meaning mostly 35-54) then the pre-1965 songs are almost totally eliminated save for a few anthem songs that got so much later play as to be relevant to those under 55.

Then, local hits are almost totally killed. In the case of LA, a majority of those 25-54 potential listeners did not grow up in the LA area, and probably don't relate to the songs. It also means that the strength of Beach Boys and the like is much less, too.

So we are left with far less than the totality of all "charting" songs.

The rest of the songs have to pass a mass appeal test.... do the vast majority like the songs, and do very few hate the songs. Since, in an era of multiple alternatives and the PPM, listeners do not tolerate songs that they dislkke. So we can not accept playing songs that large percentages of the target don't all accept... it's not like early Top 40 where we could count on not liking about 3 or 4 songs an hour, but we had no choice.

Again, the PPM shows immediate reaction to individual songs and while the sample does not allow using the PPM as a substitute music test, it does indicate that there is far less tolerance than previously believed for mediocre or bad songs, forcing the use of all acceptable songs.

So we get the end result of a core of good songs everyone agrees are either real favorites or songs they like quite a bit.

There is a lot of creative progrramming that can be done. We see songs that are at the edge of acceptability that we can use occasionally. We know that, properly positioned, novelty songs and special features like "one hit wonders" will be accepted even if the songs are poor scorers. But in general, songs other than broad based solid appealing ones, can't be played regularly.

And we also know, in this NYC to LA comparison, that the two markets are very different, requiring different solutions.

 

[Silkie]

At least they didn't announce, as I understand one place did, that it was the top 500 Labor Day Countdown of a combination of listener voted, favorites and chart toppers; all in the same breath as letting everyone know what the weather was doing, keeping tabs on somebody's wife for him, and saying she was off work and out drunk - and pass the word on up (she was with her husband the whole time).

Give me the station that says that it's all Number 1 songs, or the CBS Countdown any time.

 

[scooty430]

Our countdown could have more Beach Boys, local surf music, "Sauvecitio," Love (the band,) maybe more Eagles, more Doors, more Santana, some of the local garage bands that had hits....and for the 80s.....some Go-Gos. Let's go Jhani, you have whetted our appetite with these A to Z and Lost Hits weekends.....how about an authentic voted countdown for Los Angeles?

I think KRTH is really reluctant to go in depth like CBS-FM's countdown. It's just an unfortunate fact of life for L.A.'s residents tuning into the only station that plays older hits and can only hear 5% of what's truely out there. Someday, they'll wake up and get with the times.

Oh by the way, even if KRTH ever did promote an authentic voted countdown, they'll most likely eliminate all the songs voted that isn't kosher with their "sound" and we'd back at square one once again. Oh well

You're right. KRTH did in fact do a voting for the Top 1001 New Year's Countdown. And it was indeed a good countdown. But you had to choose from a drop down menu of choices - you couldn't just type in songs you liked. Plus when they rolled out the 1001, it was clear they'd faked it. The 50s songs were all stuck down at the bottom, and the top 500 (which was run twice) had all the usual suspects highlighted.

 

[scooty430]

I think KRTH is really reluctant to go in depth like CBS-FM's countdown. It's just an unfortunate fact of life for L.A.'s residents tuning into the only station that plays older hits and can only hear 5% of what's truely out there. Someday, they'll wake up and get with the times.

Here's the thing at the bottom of your misunderstanding of radio programming:

Radio must play songs that the large majority of the potential targeted listeners will like.

That fact eliminates most songs that have gotten radio airplay over the period between, let's say, 1955 and 1985.

First, if the station targets somewhere in 25-54 (meaning mostly 35-54) then the pre-1965 songs are almost totally eliminated save for a few anthem songs that got so much later play as to be relevant to those under 55.

Then, local hits are almost totally killed. In the case of LA, a majority of those 25-54 potential listeners did not grow up in the LA area, and probably don't relate to the songs. It also means that the strength of Beach Boys and the like is much less, too.

So we are left with far less than the totality of all "charting" songs.

The rest of the songs have to pass a mass appeal test.... do the vast majority like the songs, and do very few hate the songs. Since, in an era of multiple alternatives and the PPM, listeners do not tolerate songs that they dislkke. So we can not accept playing songs that large percentages of the target don't all accept... it's not like early Top 40 where we could count on not liking about 3 or 4 songs an hour, but we had no choice.

Again, the PPM shows immediate reaction to individual songs and while the sample does not allow using the PPM as a substitute music test, it does indicate that there is far less tolerance than previously believed for mediocre or bad songs, forcing the use of all acceptable songs.

So we get the end result of a core of good songs everyone agrees are either real favorites or songs they like quite a bit.

There is a lot of creative progrramming that can be done. We see songs that are at the edge of acceptability that we can use occasionally. We know that, properly positioned, novelty songs and special features like "one hit wonders" will be accepted even if the songs are poor scorers. But in general, songs other than broad based solid appealing ones, can't be played regularly.

And we also know, in this NYC to LA comparison, that the two markets are very different, requiring different solutions.

This approach makes sense in theory.

In practice, it leads to very boring, homogenized radio. In the age of the ipod, etc. the solution is not to become an ipod with 300 songs on it.

Luckily, neither CBS or KRTH is following your advice. CBS has a weekend chock full of "horrible" (in your eyes) STIFFS (whether chosen by us or by management,) and KRTH just did a month where every weekend featured four STIFFS an hour. And even during the week, both stations have doubled, maybe triped, their playlists from the 250 song doldrum days of ten years ago. Both stations have moved past 1965-1972, pushing backward to the 50s, and forward to the 80s.

Let's hope they continue to ignore you!

As for LA voting on songs, let's go ahead and let us vote and see what we come up with. You imply that Hispanics do not like or know oldies. Somehow you don't seem to know about KRLA, Huggy Boy, low rider oldies, "Angel Baby," and the connection with oldies that goes way back to the 50s in Latino LA. Instead, you think every Hispanic in town is a guy who just swam across the Rio Grande. Take a look around: there are generations of Hispanics here now - and they don't all listen to ranchera music!

 

[davideduardo]

You imply that Hispanics do not like or know oldies. Somehow you don't seem to know about KRLA, Huggy Boy, low rider oldies, "Angel Baby," and the connection with oldies that goes way back to the 50s in Latino LA. Instead, you think every Hispanic in town is a guy who just swam across the Rio Grande. Take a look around: there are generations of Hispanics here now - and they don't all listen to ranchera music!

75% of Hispanics over 25 were not born in the US. Few of them know English language oldies.

And many of the 25% that were not born outside the US are bilingual and listen to staitons like KLVE, or prefer their classic hits in Spanish on KRCD.

 

[scooty430]

Where are you getting that figure? 75 percent? Seems a bit high.

 

[davideduardo]

Where are you getting that figure? 75 percent? Seems a bit high.

Claritas / US Census / ACS. This figure has increased over the last 25 years...

You are likely confusing citizenship with place of birth. Many Hispanics who were born abroad are citizens... but they can't change the place of birth.

Another clude... over 60% of all LA area (LA Metro is LA and Orange counties) Hispanics are Spanish dominant, a quality inherent with first generation Hispanics.

First generation Hispanics seldom modify their music preferences over the years, so they are unlikely candidates for listening to any kind of music they did not listen to "back in the homeland."

 

[radio124]

The woman who cleans my house is from El Salvador. She is 50 years old and came here in 1995. While she works she puts on either KOST or KRTH, once in a while KBIG. She speaks primarily Spanish, knows little English. Her favorite singers are The Beatles, Barry Manilow and Air Supply. She has no interest in Spanish language radio.

 

[davideduardo]

The woman who cleans my house is from El Salvador. She is 50 years old and came here in 1995. While she works she puts on either KOST or KRTH, once in a while KBIG. She speaks primarily Spanish, knows little English. Her favorite singers are The Beatles, Barry Manilow and Air Supply. She has no interest in Spanish language radio.

There is a small percentage of immigrants who listened to stations in their home countries that played English pop hits... so a few of them will like similar stations here.

In addition, there is no LA station since the brief existence of KZAB 93.5 that programs specifically to Central Americans, so there may be little for her to like on LA Spanish radio.

 

[scooty430]

So what you are saying is that people move to LA, and don't adopt any of the local culture. They cling to whatever they liked in Mexico, El Salvador, Iran, whatever.

How silly. When you move to a new city or country, it doesn't take long to adopt some of the local customs. The Persian kids driving around my neighborhood are NOT listening to Iranian music. They listen to KROQ and rap, like all the other American kids.

And when I worked with kids in East LA back in the 90s, the most popular bands were Metallica, Morrissey, and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Probably the same as the kids in the Palisades.

 

[oldies76]

Give me the station that says that it's all Number 1 songs, or the CBS Countdown any time.

Try this: http://allnumberoneradio.com/

or listen to KRTH during Labor Day Weekend in 1985 (if we could only go back in time!)

 

[davideduardo]

So what you are saying is that people move to LA, and don't adopt any of the local culture. They cling to whatever they liked in Mexico, El Salvador, Iran, whatever.

First generation immigrants who arrrive as adults generally do not change their tastes in music, food, kinds of TV shows, even preferred brands.

Music taste is formed in the early adolescent years, and may moderate or mutate, but it does not change much. Anecdotally, my musical taste was formed listening to the Sonora Santanera, the Sonora Matancera, Enrique Guzmán and César Costa. I am much more interested in the contemporary derivitives of that music than in most things in English, many of which sound like so many buzz saws to me; no matter how many years I am in this country, I am not going to start liking Van Halen or Green Day or REM.

This is an issue of nurture, and one of the more interesting things you can study under cultural anthropology.

How silly. When you move to a new city or country, it doesn't take long to adopt some of the local customs. The Persian kids driving around my neighborhood are NOT listening to Iranian music. They listen to KROQ and rap, like all the other American kids.

Because they were born here. Their parents listen to KIRN and Radio Tehran.

And when I worked with kids in East LA back in the 90s, the most popular bands were Metallica, Morrissey, and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Probably the same as the kids in the Palisades.

Again, born here or brought here pre-adolesence.

 

[scooty430]

You may want to rent Persepolis. It's an Oscar winning movie about a girl growing up in Iran in the late 70s/early 80s. She and her friends listen to the Bee Gees, Michael Jackson, and the Ramones. Seems pretty authentic.

 

[oldies76]

The reason some newly-arrived hispanics to the L.A. area may not be familiar with the all the rest of the oldies that are unplayed, is simply one reason: KRTH has basically played the same thing for years and due to that exposure, the hispanics (born abroad) seem to conclude that, those are the only oldies that mainly exist on radio AND are unaware of the other side of the coin (the hundreds of other songs that are never played). Coming from other lands, they are simply not aware of our history of music thru the years. So what they hear, they seem content and happy with. It's just the way it is. They love "Angel Baby" by Rosie, because that song was heavily aired at one time on KRTH, so it is accepted. "Suavecito" is another great example. The ones that have a desire to learn our rock and roll history would eventually realize there's more out there.

The same would apply to us going abroad. Would I know the hits of 1963 from Chile or Peru for example or even the hits of the seventies? No I wouldn't, but I would be curious to learn once there.

 

[davideduardo]

The reason some newly-arrived hispanics to the L.A. area may not be familiar with the all the rest of the oldies that are unplayed, is simply one reason: KRTH has basically played the same thing for years and due to that exposure, the hispanics (born abroad) seem to conclude that, those are the only oldies that mainly exist on radio AND are unaware of the other side of the coin (the hundreds of other songs that are never played).

The majority of Hispanics who arrive in LA are in their late teens and 20's. They would have about zero interest in Anglo pop music of the 60's and 70's and 80's in English. They would have an interest in banda and ranchera and norteña and durangüense and grupera, the kind of music played in the areas of Mexico most emigrants from that nation are from.

Coming from other lands, they are simply not aware of our history of music thru the years. So what they hear, they seem content and happy with.

No, they aren't. First generation immigrants from Mexico (which is 95% of the inward migration of Hispanics today) would not even listen to a station all in English unless they were the of the small percentage from the middle class that choose to stay here after college, for example.

It's just the way it is. They love "Angel Baby" by Rosie, because that song was heavily aired at one time on KRTH, so it is accepted.

That song is accepted by Hispanics of, maybe, the second generation and more likely the third, who grew up here in that era. That song was probably not played anywhere in Latin America... as "la nueva ola" or "rock n roll" did not arrive most places in that area till the early 60's

"Suavecito" is another great example. The ones that have a desire to learn our rock and roll history would eventually realize there's more out there.

Suavecito was not a Latin American hit. It was an American hit by a Pocho band.

The same would apply to us going abroad. Would I know the hits of 1963 from Chile or Peru for example or even the hits of the seventies? No I wouldn't, but I would be curious to learn once there.

First, you would have to find out what the rough equivalents of country, urban, and pop music. There are hits in all genres, and the genres are different in each country, and I just named a couple that have equivalents.

But the point is that most people who come to the US come because of a lack of opportuinty in their own country. They do not come to learn about how many hits The Supremes or the Strawberry Alarm Clock had. They listen to stations that play the music they like, and there are about 16 of them in LA.

 

[davideduardo]

You may want to rent Persepolis. It's an Oscar winning movie about a girl growing up in Iran in the late 70s/early 80s. She and her friends listen to the Bee Gees, Michael Jackson, and the Ramones. Seems pretty authentic.

The upper socioeconomic classes often listen to English language pop and rock music. Generally, unless there is a revoution such as in Iran, the upper S/E level folks don't emigrate... they stay in their own culture and country. Why would anyone who is better off in their own country come to a place where they don't speak the language as well, where there are different customs and where they are away from their own culture and friends and family?

I have mentioned this several times before.

The emigrants who come from Latin America tend to be from more rural areas and from the lowest S/E levels (called D and E in Latin America). They didn't listen to Elnglish language music in Mexico... they listened to rancheras and norteñas and banda music. And they want to hear the same thing when they get here and they want to hear the same thing 20 years from now.

 

[briancraig]

I think we will see a decline in Spanish language radio over the next 15 to 20 years.

The New York Times explains why:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/us/29hispanic.html

 

[davideduardo]

I think we will see a decline in Spanish language radio over the next 15 to 20 years.

More like 30 to 40 years, at which time radio will probably be unrecognizable by today's standards...

First generation immigrants rarely change their language dominance; Hispanic first generation immigrants will speak Spanish all their lives.

Music taste is formed in early adolescence. First generation immigrants who came in their late teens onward came with music preferences formed. Second generation will form likes for Spanish language music in the Spanish speaking home, and for some form of English language music at school and with friends. So they will be users of Spanish language radio part of the time.

So we have viability, were inbound migration to cease, of Spanish language media for several generations.

 

[briancraig]

I agree, it will probably take longer than 15 years for Spanish language radio to really start slowing a slide.

But I definitely think we will see the next generations of the Hispanic population become more a part of the "mainstream pop culture" much more rapidly than some predict. Hispanics will also have much more of an influence on American music, film and tv in the next decade. This will be good for both Hispanics and the rest of American society.

"Music taste is formed in early adolescence." I don't really doubt this and even though I once gave an example of how many people I grew up with in Memphis who liked AOR as teens but today almost exclusively listen to country now that they are in their 40s, your explanation for this made sense.

However, I still feel sorry for people whose music tastes are frozen in early adolescence. How sad not to constantly be discovering new genres and artists. I know I'm not the average music consumer as anyone who owns over 6000 records isn't indicative of the public, but still how pathetic to only like at 40 what you liked at 14.