Lack of HD upgrades in Fort Wayne

[Juan Bodley]

OK those of you on the inside, I'll ask merely out of curiosity:
Why hasn't anybody made any effort (outside of NIPR and WOWO) to go to HD Radio??
I can see the benefits for several stations:
WBYR could have a great alternative channel to grab the old X102 listeners;
WFWI definately needs someplace to play the "out there" classics...can anyone say Zappa??
Rock104...well, they could go "really out there" with Doc's collection...

Being a techie (and for a while, a new system wiring technician,) I know what it takes to replace old with new, and in some of these transmitter sites you're asking a lot (except maybe FedMed's barns...I've seen how Jack and Mogan do it...don't know how Summit or Sarkes or "This Station For Rent" WBTU/The Vibe do it.) So if there's info let's have it shall we??? Inquiring minds want to know when to invest in a new tuner!!!

 

[BobOnTheJob]

If WBYR's transmitter is still well east of Ft Wayne, they'd be disappointed with the results. HD radio has much poorer coverage than analog FM. If the stick isn't in the middle of town, it ain't gonna be pretty. HD power is just a few percent of the analog power...and so it will remain until the analog gets shut off. Be glad there isn't much of it there. It takes out the adjacent channels and as a result, clutters up the dial. The stuff is the biggest farce I've ever witnessed in my 40 years in the industry.

 

[Juan Bodley]

Bigger than the "let's cut 5KHz off our AM bandwidth" stuff that CC pulled??
And as far as I know the Bear's tower is southeast of Fort Wayne...
Based on what you're saying, the middle of the road stations (WMEE, WAJI, WLDE,) will be the stations that can upgrade and survive. I knew that there was a power payoff for HD (usually HD is about 10% of the stations ERP, if I read the tech papers correctly) but this is crazy. Bring back C-QUAM AM Stereo and let's all go to a smoke free bar...

 

[BobOnTheJob]

Bigger than the "let's cut 5KHz off our AM bandwidth" stuff that CC pulled??
And as far as I know the Bear's tower is southeast of Fort Wayne...
Based on what you're saying, the middle of the road stations (WMEE, WAJI, WLDE,) will be the stations that can upgrade and survive. I knew that there was a power payoff for HD (usually HD is about 10% of the stations ERP, if I read the tech papers correctly) but this is crazy. Bring back C-QUAM AM Stereo and let's all go to a smoke free bar...

Fortunately so far the 5khz deal is nothing but one man's crusade. As long as no NPRM is made, it will remain that...an option to ruin your own signal's quality if you desire. HD, on the other hand, ruins coverage on neighboring channels. We've all read examples of the damage done, but on I-275 in northern KY, I have witnessed the formerly crystal clear Madison,IN station on 96.7 TOTALLY disappear thanks to the 96.5 HD signal from north of Cincinnati. The sad thing is that the HD signal at that distance was probably worthless (it may have marginally worked on a car radio), yet now everyone from Madison who works in northern KY (and there are many---it's part of greater Cincinnati) no longer have the option of listening to their local station on their commute. To me, this is indeed worse than the CC 5K joke. However, both qualify as gross displays of stupidity.

Back to the coverage expectations...when one of the Indy class B stations went HD several years ago, they were given a radio as part of the package. Their tower is within hollering distance of I-465. Their studio is 7 miles away...about 1/3 of the distance to their 70db city grade contour. The radio would not work inside their office building. Imagine how far a 6KW class A would penetrate an offie building...a mile? 2 of a good day? The analog Class B signal reaches 60 miles on a good car radio. There are peeps of the HD signal at 30 miles. And before anyone thinks "that's half the coverage, that's not all that bad", consider that a Class A reaches 40-45 miles on a good car radio if the channel is clear & the expectation of class B HD covearge equals a very substandard Class A analog. And even the best Class A's only do well in large markets if they are perched right in the middle of downtown. HD will turn today's successful move-ins into rim-shooters.

Now this may all change if/when the Hybrid Mode is behind us. 50KW at 500' of raw HD may work better than analog based on what I see on HDTV. But it's a long way from here to there...

 

[Juan Bodley]

What you're saying about HDTV performance I think could be applied to HD radio, granted you'd have to have the FCC mandate a total changeover (like HDTV) but I don't see that coming.
I've been looking at off-air HDTV lately with just a set, an attic mounted antenna, no distribution amp, and from the north side of Fort Wayne (north of Dupont Rd.) I've seen WIPB-DT out of Muncie frequently, so that makes me think that at this rate, if HDTV can move like that, then HD radio stands a chance. Of course IBOC throws a BIG wrench in the plan...
(and I realize that HD radio and HDTV are TOTALLY different specwise...realize that I was a TV engineer too, and maybe I'm TV biased, but I started in radio in high school so both matter...)

 

[Old Skool]

HD radio is unfortunately DOA. The industry should have used the Eureka system 15 years ago and it would have cut all competitors off at the knees. CC wanted to have their hand in the till, so they held up Eureka for Ibiquity, which they own a piece of. By the time it was unveiled, new technologies, including satellite had grabbed the space. Truth is, what BobOnTheJob says is pretty much correct. The digital signal sucks, and stations are not putting anything worthwhile on those channels. Heck, stations don't put anything worthwhile on their main channel, how would they ever handle the extra ones. The HD Alliance is run by guys who wouldn't know how to turn on a radio if their lives depended on it. HD will never take off....ever.

 

[buttheadd]

The reception problem is caused by the low digital power transmission (1% of the analog power). HD Radio will only be considered viable once the auto manufacturers decide to put them in automobiles as standard equipment - until then it will be a domain for techno-geeks and radio people.

As far as HD transition in Fort Wayne - the only people able to actually afford it would be Federated and Sarkes. Federated is way too cheap to actually put anything into their stations. Sarkes operates stations for technology laggards, therefore they will probably be late to HD.
The Summit stations have no money to do anything. If I heard it right, they just fired a bunch of the non-performing sales staff and the General Manager (again). Those stations will be sold off one by one just like a liquidation sale.
Oasis will probably go HD in the next few years, once he finally puts an end to his competition.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

The DTV system has almost nothing in common with HD Radio. DTV channels run full power on previously vacant channels, while HD Radio is carried partially on adjacent channels at relatively low power. Many people can get reliable reception of DTV stations at similar distances as the analog NTSC counterparts, but HD Radio typically only covers about 60 to 80% of the distance of the analog signal for FM, and even less for AM.

 

[Timewarp]

Even worse for HD radio is it's limited bandwidth. If a station commits it's audio to just one digital
channel that's 128 kbs. that's like a low bit mp3. What about the stations dividing this by three?
My kids can stream at a higher bit rate using the internet. And, I can drive around in the car listening
to this thanks to Cingular Wireless.
Despite all the attemps to kill internet radio, it will win in the end. You can't stop a train!

 

[kentuckymedia]

HD radio is in bad shape. In a recent study this last month, over 3,000 non biased adults between 25-34 only 3% of them said they would ever purchase an HD radio. The scarier part, only 2% of persons between 17-24 said they would ever purchase an HD radio. Listeners think its way to confusing and just dont understand why the government didnt expand the FM band to 109.9. You want to know the reason that didnt happen? Greed and money. The company fueling the push behind HD is mostly at ownership cap in almost every market....hmmmmm!

 

[BobOnTheJob]

The DTV system has almost nothing in common with HD Radio. DTV channels run full power on previously vacant channels, while HD Radio is carried partially on adjacent channels at relatively low power. Many people can get reliable reception of DTV stations at similar distances as the analog NTSC counterparts, but HD Radio typically only covers about 60 to 80% of the distance of the analog signal for FM, and even less for AM.

True for now...possibly true forever. But if the day ever comes where pure HD exists at current analog power levels, I stand by my statement that it may well outperform analog radio. An excellent reason why this stuff belongs on it's own spectrum, not attempting to put several feet in 1 pair of shoes.

 

[Steppenwolf]

HD Radio. AM Stereo. Their destiny: The Same.

 

[hipporadio]

...The stuff is the biggest farce I've ever witnessed in my 40 years in the industry.

Again, Bob “nails it”... Those words SHOULD serve as a wake-up call to an industry distracted by “nuances” that mean nothing!

Across several decades, I have loved “technology” [I even purchased THREE radios that demodulated C-QUAM AM stereo], but this “HD thing” is a JOKE! Yet another example of “spin” that is going NOWHERE! Seriously, ask yourself WHY more Apple i-phones sold on ONE DAY than have “HD radios” in three years – simple answer – the “street” DOES NOT see a benefit. Could “the street” is smarter than “radio” gives it credit for?

Recently, “HD Radio” arrived in Chas-Town [courtesy of its investor CCU and soon to follow, Citadel]. There is no “buzz” [aside from the technical products] within the masses – NO retail push – little availability of receivers at places the listeners shop. There is simply more interest [locally] in the suburban AM oldies station than there is in the “stations between the stations”.

Folks in Indiana should respect the awesome coverage of a 100kw FM station up 1000-feet in the air... They are standard in the S.E. The CCU [Charleston] HD signals ARE NOT receivable a mere 40-miles across water on Fripp Island with a $250 Sangean HD table radio and C-Crane FM dipole antenna. END OF ISSUE!

 

[Ann Tenna]

HD radio is in bad shape. In a recent study this last month, over 3,000 non biased adults between 25-34 only 3% of them said they would ever purchase an HD radio. The scarier part, only 2% of persons between 17-24 said they would ever purchase an HD radio. Listeners think its way to confusing and just dont understand why the government didnt expand the FM band to 109.9. You want to know the reason that didnt happen? Greed and money. The company fueling the push behind HD is mostly at ownership cap in almost every market....hmmmmm!

I know this is no more relevent to the argument about HD Radio success than the survey you quote, but I wonder if, back in the early 1960's, you asked a group of "unbiased" adults how many of them would buy one of those fancy new color TV's, how many would embrace THAT new technology? Even seeing one on display in the TV Shop storefront, getting people to embrace new technology isn't easy. It takes time and patience, and if we as an industry spend all our time putting new technology down rather than trying to make it better and promote it to our viewers and listeners, then we are in for a very rocky future.

 

[DouglasB]

HD radio is a solution in search of a problem. Do you find it interesting that Apple sold more iPhones in one day than the total number of HD radios have been sold to date? Why? The general population does not care. Why? Where's the benefit to the consumer? Sure, there may be multiple channels for the FM side, but what are stations going to program that we don't already have?
My point is this: for the general population to embrace this new technology there has to be more than just a technical (dubious) reason. Listeners want entertaining and compelling content, the technical delivery method is secondary.

And remember, this is Fort Wayne. Our innovation stopped after we invented the gasoline pump, the automatic washing machine, the modern frigde, the SUV, the NBA, night baseball, etc. Why should we take a chance now?

 

[Timewarp]

If HD radio had been established 15 or even 10 years ago, it might be flying high today. Now it
is too late.
Now, the internet is established. No need to reinvent it on your limited local signal.

 

[Juan Bodley]

The DTV system has almost nothing in common with HD Radio. DTV channels run full power on previously vacant channels, while HD Radio is carried partially on adjacent channels at relatively low power. Many people can get reliable reception of DTV stations at similar distances as the analog NTSC counterparts, but HD Radio typically only covers about 60 to 80% of the distance of the analog signal for FM, and even less for AM.

Philip I thank you for that reminder... I've been around more TV rigs anyway in the last 10 years. And I think you are DEAD ON right about the vacant channel remark; even DTV stations that are N-1 or N+1 to an analog station are putting out 95% or better on their ERP. And it hit me clearly driving in the car last week that there's some analog FM's that I can't get on a Kenwood aftermarket deck without multipath or signal fade in/out disrupting a song or making reception impossible even 10 miles from the stick.

I think maybe even after Radio World published the IBOC report the items they discussed don't even scratch the surface on the technical limitations. I'm out of touch with this business (all aspects of it) and it's starting to show...