Lake & Jack FM

[Hiram Yellen]

As much as I'd like to see them do it, Those two stations failed to take down 97Rock again.Winter Arb had WGRF really putting those 2 stations to shame. The Lake is really dead in the water. I know they are doing mailout and "silly contests" so they must really be under the gun to produce. I heard they lost their promotions director and Ed the sales manager. Hiram in Amherst

 

[x13thfloorrand]

Even with JP Lose-man Sundays....

I have to hand it to 97 Rock. One of the best stations to respond to competion, from all angles.There was a post on the "On Demand A-Z". Different.... but i liked it.Yes, i believe director of marketing and promo director saw the light, and the fact that people actually spent weekends NOT at Northtown Auto instead of radio remotes. More money, i hear. I wish them both well.I thought Jack would be better for some reason. Many bemoan the lack of air talent, as if that's the saving grace of successful stations. It's a key component, but quality is just as important as quantity (good air talent versus marginal air talent on all shifts) As much as I'd like to see them do it, Those two stations failed to take down 97Rock again.Winter Arb had WGRF really putting those 2 stations to shame. The Lake is really dead in the water. I know they are doing mailout and "silly contests" so they must really be under the gun to produce. I heard they lost their promotions director and Ed the sales manager. Hiram in Amherst[/quote]

 

[Radknowski]

It'll be a 97 degree in January before either or both of those stations bring down 97 Rock. Neither station has the talent, the know-how and most importantly, the WILL to be victorious.You could have two stations with the most well-researched music and they still wouldn't bring down 97 Rock. For the record, most readers know (from the old days before this board was cannabalized) that I'm out of radio, but even I know what makes 97 Rock successful. It's chemistry and the will to win. Add to that the fact that no other radio station in Buffalo has better name recognition and promotion and 97 Rock comes out on top. Tick, tick, tick... clock's tickin' on format changes at both the Lake and Jack.

 

[Yeziknoradio]

[size=12pt]For the record, most readers know (from the old days before this board was cannabalized) that I'm out of radio, but even I know what makes 97 Rock successful. It's chemistry and the will to win. Add to that the fact that no other radio station in Buffalo has better name recognition and promotion and 97 Rock comes out on top. Tick, tick, tick... clock's tickin' on format changes at both the Lake and Jack.

So, does this mean Jack will become Free FM and go back to talk?

 

[SirRoxalot]

I'm guessing that CBS is waiting to see how O&A do in the major markets. If they start to recover the numbers they lost when Stern left, I wouldn't be surprised to see O&A returning to the Buffalo market in the 6-9AM slot.Entercom seems to be committed to The Lake format for a while longer. I expect programming changes within the format instead of a wholesale format change. There's a LOT of room for improvement at that station without a wholesale change.I think that Jack will at least make it through the Fall. Ditto for The Lake. On the other hand, when it comes to Jack, we are talking about CBS. They've made so many moves that make no sense that nothing would surprise me.

 

[misicgeek]

The Lake is the best radio station on the air,sure they won't probably be on the top 5 radio stations according to ratings,but I hope their company will continue to let it exsist,despite making any money.I know there are people out there like me,that like listening to a combination of great classic rock,deep cuts,and some radio hits in there as well,they even play Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye.Not only that but the jocks are informative and know about their music, they actually talk about the music, not their personal lives or the regular radio dj ego blabber.I dont care about ratings, I just want to hear great music,with informative jocks talking about what they are playing, and The Lake also supports local music.

 

[Element9]

The Lake is the best radio station on the air,sure they won't probably be on the top 5 radio stations according to ratings,but I hope their company will continue to let it exsist,despite making any money... I dont care about ratings, I just want to hear great music,with informative jocks talking about what they are playing, and The Lake also supports local music.

Fair enough. From a listener's point of view, you make good points. Yet, from the business side of the equation, why is the Lake going to continue doing what they do if they cannot attract a considerable number of listeners which yields stronger ratings than the Lake has delivered in the last two or three books? Radio is thought of as being in the music and entertainment business. But now more than ever, like it or not, radio is all about advertising and revenue. Stations deliver listeners for a price. The more listeners generated, the more stations charge. If a station doesn't deliver a substantial number of listeners, the station changes format to something that has a greater potential to deliver listeners. Jack and the Lake are in business to deliver as many listeners as possible. Arguably, they're also in business to create an "addition by subtraction" effect aimed at reducing 97 Rock's ratings so other stations in their respective clusters can rise above 97 Rock's impressive 25-54 numbers. If Jack and the Lake take enough listeners away from 97 Rock, then stations like WYRK (CBS) and WTSS (Entercom) have a better potential to place higher than 97 Rock. WYRK may place higher than 97 Rock, but to this point, Jack and the Lake are in the back of the pack.-9-

 

[Yeziknoradio]

The Lake is the best radio station on the air,sure they won't probably be on the top 5 radio stations according to ratings,but I hope their company will continue to let it exsist,despite making any money... I dont care about ratings, I just want to hear great music,with informative jocks talking about what they are playing, and The Lake also supports local music.

Fair enough. From a listener's point of view, you make good points. Yet, from the business side of the equation, why is the Lake going to continue doing what they do if they cannot attract a considerable number of listeners which yields stronger ratings than the Lake has delivered in the last two or three books? Radio is thought of as being in the music and entertainment business. But now more than ever, like it or not, radio is all about advertising and revenue. Stations deliver listeners for a price. The more listeners generated, the more stations charge. If a station doesn't deliver a substantial number of listeners, the station changes format to something that has a greater potential to deliver listeners. Jack and the Lake are in business to deliver as many listeners as possible. Arguably, they're also in business to create an "addition by subtraction" effect aimed at reducing 97 Rock's ratings so other stations in their respective clusters can rise above 97 Rock's impressive 25-54 numbers. If Jack and the Lake take enough listeners away from 97 Rock, then stations like WYRK (CBS) and WTSS (Entercom) have a better potential to place higher than 97 Rock. WYRK may place higher than 97 Rock, but to this point, Jack and the Lake are in the back of the pack.-9-

To add to this, it isn't just numbers in general, it's also about how many men or women are listening.I wonder, would a "Talk radio for Men" work in Buffalo?It didn't do too well in *Toronto* Canada, but that may be because of some CRTC issues that prevented them from doing what they truely wanted to do. Note: Mojo Radio, AM 640 was known as talk radio for guys, but has since changed to a Toronto talk based station that no longer targets *just* men. (currently known as 640 Toronto AM radio)

 

[SpareChange]

To add to this, it isn't just numbers in general, it's also about how many men or women are listening. I wonder, would a "Talk radio for Men" work in Buffalo? It didn't do too well in *Toronto* Canada, but that may be because of some CRTC issues that prevented them from doing what they truely wanted to do.

In many ways, "guy talk" is already on the air and doing reasonably well in Buffalo at WEDG with Shredd & Ragan in the morning, the Bull in the afternoon and on 97 Rock with Norton & Lederman in the morning and Slick Tom at night. Add WGR Sportsradio 550 to the "guy talk" mix and you have the format covered. It's been my observation that "guy talk" only works when a station has the right talent in place with a format that's conducive to attracting 25-54 year old men... hey, does that sound like 97 Rock or the Edge? Yeah, it does. If Opie & Anthony ever show up in Buffalo on WBUF ("we've got some unfinished business there and we'd like to come back...") the "guy talk" format is covered. The "guy talk" format on AM 640 always sounded contrived. It's no surprise they 'canned the format. AM is a tough sell for 18-34 men unless the station has a major sports franchise and even then, the station would best present itself as a sports station.

 

[Yeziknoradio]

To add to this, it isn't just numbers in general, it's also about how many men or women are listening. I wonder, would a "Talk radio for Men" work in Buffalo? It didn't do too well in *Toronto* Canada, but that may be because of some CRTC issues that prevented them from doing what they truely wanted to do.

In many ways, "guy talk" is already on the air and doing reasonably well in Buffalo at WEDG with Shredd & Ragan in the morning, the Bull in the afternoon and on 97 Rock with Norton & Lederman in the morning and Slick Tom at night. Add WGR Sportsradio 550 to the "guy talk" mix and you have the format covered. It's been my observation that "guy talk" only works when a station has the right talent in place with a format that's conducive to attracting 25-54 year old men... hey, does that sound like 97 Rock or the Edge? Yeah, it does. If Opie & Anthony ever show up in Buffalo on WBUF ("we've got some unfinished business there and we'd like to come back...") the "guy talk" format is covered. The "guy talk" format on AM 640 always sounded contrived. It's no surprise they 'canned the format. AM is a tough sell for 18-34 men unless the station has a major sports franchise and even then, the station would best present itself as a sports station.

640 has been the home of the leafs and the Argos since their top 40 days in the 90's. Canadain football, and Hockey coverd.BUT there already was a sports station down the dial(fan).Later,Team 1050 came about, and failed even worse than talk radio for guys did.As for a talk radio for guys in Buffalo, yes, it apears the formula is there, but the bodies are all over the dial, rather than being in one place. To get them in one place for a 24/7 talk radio for guys may be the challenge.

 

[Element9]

You offered an interesting history of AM 640, Yezi. In Buffalo, the men aren't all over the dial as much as you might think. Citadel owns the franchise with 97 and 103. 97 Rock alone, doubles WGR's Men. Add the Edge, and the Citadel margin increases. The freak Winter book has WHTT tied with the Edge 25-54 Men. That shouldn't really happen to a station that's transitioning from Oldies to Classic Hits and targets Women, but it is what it is. Go figure. Arbitron sampling leaves a lot to be desired. It wouldn't surprise me if the Spring book shows WHTT completely the opposite.Citadel is holding the cards with the #1 ranked and two #3 ranked stations, totaling more than a 30 share with Men 25-54. The Entercom properties that target Men 25-54, WGR and the Lake, don't even come close, pulling down a bit more than an 11 share. The information provided here comes from a well-placed source in one of the Buffalo clusters. I trust that it's correct. Don't be surprised if it gets deleted. So no, the men really aren't all over the place. As it's been previously stated in this thread, guy talk already exists.

 

[Yeziknoradio]

You offered an interesting history of AM 640, Yezi. In Buffalo, the men aren't all over the dial as much as you might think. Citadel owns the franchise with 97 and 103. 97 Rock alone, doubles WGR's Men. Add the Edge, and the Citadel margin increases. The freak Winter book has WHTT tied with the Edge 25-54 Men. That shouldn't really happen to a station that's transitioning from Oldies to Classic Hits and targets Women, but it is what it is. Go figure. Arbitron sampling leaves a lot to be desired. It wouldn't surprise me if the Spring book shows WHTT completely the opposite.Citadel is holding the cards with the #1 ranked and two #3 ranked stations, totaling more than a 30 share with Men 25-54. The Entercom properties that target Men 25-54, WGR and the Lake, don't even come close, pulling down a bit more than an 11 share. The information provided here comes from a well-placed source in one of the Buffalo clusters. I trust that it's correct. Don't be surprised if it gets deleted. So no, the men really aren't all over the place. As it's been previously stated in this thread, guy talk already exists.

A 24/7 talk radio for guys does not, however, and it would be interesting if 92.9 were to steal Shred and company to help build a 24/7 talk radio for guys, but ofcorse, they would have tried that instead of Jack, and instead of quitting talk FM after only 6 months if that were the plan.(and where I'm from, 6 months is not enough time to justify that a format is not working...weak and in need of a tweak, perhaps, but not dead.)