LED Light Bulbs vs Our Livelihood

[kenglish]

Interesting video. Note how some manufacturer's devices are OK, some are not. At about 10:30, they show some serious interference from an OSRAM bulb....I think OSRAM is a brand that's widely carried in U.S. "big box" stores.

http://www.southgatearc.org/news/ja...ateurRadioNews+(Southgate+Amateur+Radio+News)

 

[Fieldtech1]

The lights that dont cause interference are ones with out a switched power supply. They just have a voltage dropping resistor and many multiples of diodes wired in series. These are less reliable and efficient and tend to fail prematurely in my experience. That said ive also seen some failures with the units with switched power supplies mainly due to overheating in enclosed lighting fixtures.

 

[Tom Wells]

A very peculiar situation where outright pollution is permissable and now encouraged in a "new" technology.
The beloved switching power supply wants to be everywhere!
I've never been happy really about flourescent lighting, but at least that was just light crackling, not a rip saw.

Now think for a moment, about the elimination of so many AC power transformers, with their "nasty" heat losses.
The magnetic core stores/releases energy during each half cycle.
It is a flywheel where the primary/secondary coupling is "geared" as needed.
But it's still a flywheel to BOTH sides of the system, and almost like an electrical "breath",
gives elasticity within the system that is good. It is inductively stored energy in a distributed way.
The elimination of transformers from design for the sake of cheapness not only ignores the useful
flywheel effect to all users but often creates awful wideband rf pollution, which even then wouldn't need to be except
that everything must be sacrified to meet the price-line.

It'll just keep getting worse unless some way is found for this issue to be important to more than radio insiders.

The FCC and NAB haven't really helped in 40 years on this, so it's up to...

Do we need to create a facebook page for radio interference?

 

[frankberry]

It really wouldn't take a whole lot to reduce the RFI from the LED lamps. All it would take is to slow the ramp-up and ramp-down at the output of the switching supply.
It would have minimum impact on the efficiency of the LED lamps.
Isn't there an FCC regulation that prohibits "knowingly" interfering with radio communications? There was such a regulation at one time but it may have gone out the window with the approval of the 'IBOC interference generators.'

 

[ncradioeng]

This whole LED bulb thing stinks. Since few people are going to fork over $45+ for a LED light bulb, they have to outlaw the incandescent bulb. The candle, oil and gas lamps weren't outlawed when the incandescent bulb became available, people switched when they felt like it or when the price fell (which it will). And as for lasting a long time - I've seen plenty of LED traffic lights less than a couple years old starting to fail.

 

[RadeoEngineer]

This whole LED bulb thing stinks. Since few people are going to fork over $45+ for a LED light bulb, they have to outlaw the incandescent bulb. The candle, oil and gas lamps weren't outlawed when the incandescent bulb became available, people switched when they felt like it or when the price fell (which it will). And as for lasting a long time - I've seen plenty of LED traffic lights less than a couple years old starting to fail.

I just replaced two very hard to reach outdoor security lights with LED's. Yeah they cost me about $30 each but they'll also last at least ten years, if not more.

 

[kenglish]

.......Isn't there an FCC regulation that prohibits "knowingly" interfering with radio communications? There was such a regulation at one time but it may have gone out the window with the approval of the 'IBOC interference generators.'

There are rules, but they are rarely enforced, and only after some real complaints from the end-user who's being harmed.
Most listeners will not complain about the specific interference, because they have no idea what is causing it, so they just blame "shitty engineering" of the station they have trouble with.

Of course, few broadcasters ever pursue the interference complaints any more, much less escalate them to the FCC level. So, nothing ever gets done about it.

How many stations do you think would even do a story about something like this? Ours just ran a whole piece about how "Restroom paper towels may contain germs, so you might be better off NOT washing your hands before eating".

Sensationalism always wins.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

All this interference is what is driving the move of News and Talk formats to FM, and even woefully underpowered FM translators, which are outperforming many AM stations in ratings. These translators are interfering with licensed stations, though. FM is getting overcrowded on the notion that the capture effect means you don't hear interference. Tell that to the people of SE Michigan, who are inundated with new Canandian stations and Domestic translators.

Yesterday, in my office inside a steel building, for an unusual moment, I was actually able to listen to an AM News station with a predicted 10 mV/m outside signal (outside the building), but only because it was 15 degrees outside. In summer, and even in more temperate weather, I can barely hear the station inside because of all the electrical interference. But there's no suitable FM facility for it to operate on, unless you count IBOC as FM.

And strangely enough, some newer devices interfere with FM signals also.

 

[boiseengineer]

Most listeners will not complain about the specific interference, because they have no idea what is causing it, so they just blame "shitty engineering" of the station they have trouble with.

Unless it's Rush Limbaugh or George Noory. Then it's a conspiracy.
Every day the station would disappear into static when Rush would come on. Never mind the desk lamp next to the radio was turned on at the same time.

 

[Radiopronouncer]

A year or so ago, I bought a couple of cheap LED bulbs just to see what I thought. The light was terrible. One lasted about a month with occasional use. The other didn't last long, either. More recently, I bought another couple of LED lamps, which are a well-known brand. The light is good. They have been reliable, so far. But, they totally mess up FM reception in the next room. Yes, I said FM reception.

 

[vetguy]

I installed a number of LED bulbs at my house to light walkways. I had been running 40 watt incandescents first, then cfl's. The cfls burned themselves out in less than 6 months, running dusk to dawn. The LED's from Westinghouse had a 50% failure rate in the first 6 months. I was able to show proof of purchase to get the LED's replaced at no cost. The boxes they came in said 100,000 hour life yet the Westinghouse website reduced that to 50,000 hour life. Did not even get 10,000 hours.

I also have tried LED dusk to dawn night lights from the big box stores in a couple of places in my house. All 5 failed within 2 months. The LED's may have the life-it is the other circuitry that failed-bigtime.

 

[Tom Wells]

I have a 50 w 250v Westinghouse bulb in a seldom used back porch light that is still good.
It's around 20 watts on 120 AC.
I installed it in 1993 when I moved to this house.
I retrieved several from an abandoned section of the underground Chicago tunnels in something like 1988.
The tunnels were abandoned in late 50s so when I got them they had to be min 30 yrs old, plus the last 24 years.

I had a few others that lasted me 12 years in dusk to dawn front porch use and night light use.

But the one in back must now be at least 50. There's a bulb I'd like to buy more of.

I have done series strings of incandescents before, where the combination lights up slowly, not as
bright on any bulb, but the slower turn-on thermal shock extends filament life.

In the basement rec room area I use flush mount 1950s GMC bus interior lights in a series string.
Maybe I've changed two of the standard auto brake lights over 20 years.
Makes no RF except the on/off click.

 

[Studio1]

I have done series strings of incandescents before, where the combination lights up slowly, not as
bright on any bulb, but the slower turn-on thermal shock extends filament life.

In my parents' house we had chandeliers in the living room and dining room, each with around 20 lamps on. They'd often die at switch on, and it was getting expensive to replace them on a regular basis.
I took the switch out and replaced it with a dimmer, and taught everyone to wind the knob to zero before switch on - then to ramp up the brightness slowly.
It was another 5 years before we had to replace a lamp.
I believe that lamps which are run at even 80% of their rated voltage last significantly longer, as do lamps which are never switched off or have a low filament current maintained during the 'off' period.

As for LED lamps, failure rates are shocking. I bought some replacement T-10 lamps for the dash in my car. They lasted a few months before becoming intermittent, flickering on and off, coming on at random (when they felt like it) or dying completely.
Total waste of money.
I have LEDs here in equipment which I built in the 80s. They are still going.
So is it a case of poor production techniques? Crap quality LEDs from china?

 

[chrish]

My parents built a house in 1946 when my Dad came back from the war, there a a light fixture at the top of the front hall stairs that was turned on and off
at least a dozen times a day and left on for long periods of time. We were always amuzed how long this bulb was going to last.
After the death of my parents my nephew bought the house in 2009 and put a rear dormer on the house and that fixture was removed.......That GE 100 watt bulb was still going strong 63 years later. I seem to recall that an earlier government consumer agency nailed GE, Westinghouse and Sylvania for fixing the life span
of light bulbs in the 60's. At the station I worked at in the 70's we had 2 lobby table lamps and the Sylvania bulbs in them would burn out within hours of each other. No problem with Sylvania, we just happened to buy from one of their distributors and by then they all had deliberatly fixed time life.

 

[rrsounds]

My parents built a house in 1946 when my Dad came back from the war, there a a light fixture at the top of the front hall stairs that was turned on and off
at least a dozen times a day and left on for long periods of time. We were always amuzed how long this bulb was going to last.
After the death of my parents my nephew bought the house in 2009 and put a rear dormer on the house and that fixture was removed.......That GE 100 watt bulb was still going strong 63 years later. I seem to recall that an earlier government consumer agency nailed GE, Westinghouse and Sylvania for fixing the life span of light bulbs in the 60's. At the station I worked at in the 70's we had 2 lobby table lamps and the Sylvania bulbs in them would burn out within hours of each other. No problem with Sylvania, we just happened to buy from one of their distributors and by then they all had deliberatly fixed time life.

It's really not some kind of conspiracy. Lumen output/Watts consumed/lifespan are all inter-related. You can have a light bulb put out light forever it you accept that it is really dim. That's why there were various grades of bulbs, so you could choose high output (short life) or long life (but dimmer) bulbs, depending upon your needs.

There is a bulb in a firehouse in Livermore, CA that has been on for over 100 years.
http://www.centennialbulb.org/

But even at their best performance, incandescents are really, really inefficient.

David Reaves

 

[Kmagrill]

I installed a number of LED bulbs at my house to light walkways. I had been running 40 watt incandescents first, then cfl's. The cfls burned themselves out in less than 6 months, running dusk to dawn. The LED's from Westinghouse had a 50% failure rate in the first 6 months. I was able to show proof of purchase to get the LED's replaced at no cost. The boxes they came in said 100,000 hour life yet the Westinghouse website reduced that to 50,000 hour life. Did not even get 10,000 hours.

I also have tried LED dusk to dawn night lights from the big box stores in a couple of places in my house. All 5 failed within 2 months. The LED's may have the life-it is the other circuitry that failed-bigtime.

I've had some generic Chinese LED lights that lasted for 3 years and are still burning in dusk to dawn service. Other brands that I've tried have all failed within 6 mo or less. The cheap ones use a series of leds connected to the mains via a capacitor for voltage drop and diode. Eventually, one led dies and the whole string goes out. Replacing the bad LED will fix the light, if you can get the case open. In one instance, I added about 10 more leds in series with the ones from the factory after one failed. I just crammed the extras into the case above the PCB holding the main array. That bulb is brighter and has now been in 24/7 service since July of '09. That suggests it would cost an extra 20 cents to make a bulb that wouldn't fail. We can't have that, now can we?


Regarding the efficiency of LEDs or CFLs vs Incandescents, true as it is, the fact is that the high cost of the lamps and the high failure rate have made them less than break even. One must also consider the waste in having to throw out such a complex manufactured product. All that manufacturing energy and materials are wasted. Now that CFLs are only about 4x the price of standard lamps, they're starting to approach being a good buy for the consumer. whether thay are environmentally sound given their high failure rate has yet to be determined as far as I know.

 

[Play Freebird]

Was in Micro Center earlier this week and saw a shelf full of Toshiba E-Core PAR20 LED floodlights on sale at $15, so I bought one to try out. It's a Model 9P20/835/FL25 with 290 lumens at 9 watts (about 32 lm/W), rated for 40,000 hours life. The color temp is rated 3500K (with CRI of 80) and I find the light quality very pleasing. This model has a standard E26 base and would be suitable for use in a track lighting fixture.

I compared medium-wave RFI from this LED bulb to a CFL reflector lamp by holding a portable AM radio against the fixture, and my rough guess is that its at least a 10 dB improvement. Far more interference would be generated by a CRT monitor or TV set.

Thermal temperature at the front of the lamp measures 110 deg F compared with 175 deg for an incandescent PAR20. I took these readings with an infared point-and-shoot thermometer a couple of seconds after turning off the power. Perhaps this might offer a solution to an overheated air studio with track lights, as the LEDs are dimmable.

It's too early to comment on lifespan, but Toshiba is putting a 3 year full replacement warranty on this product.

 

[kenglish]

......Now think for a moment, about the elimination of so many AC power transformers, with their "nasty" heat losses.
The magnetic core stores/releases energy during each half cycle.
It is a flywheel where the primary/secondary coupling is "geared" as needed.
But it's still a flywheel to BOTH sides of the system, and almost like an electrical "breath",
gives elasticity within the system that is good. It is inductively stored energy in a distributed way.
The elimination of transformers from design for the sake of cheapness not only ignores the useful
flywheel effect to all users but often creates awful wideband rf pollution, which even then wouldn't need to be except
that everything must be sacrified to meet the price-line.

It'll just keep getting worse unless some way is found for this issue to be important to more than radio insiders.

The FCC and NAB haven't really helped in 40 years on this, so it's up to...

Do we need to create a facebook page for radio interference?

Your analogy brings to mind what was found with the invention of the Artificial Heart. When using a continuous pumping action, the patient had a very limited lifespan. They finally decided that the strong pumping strokes of the heart, coupled with the elasticity of the vascular system, had to operate together. The heart pumped the blood forcefully, to fill the body and lungs, and the vascular system moderated the pressure, to keep from damaging the cells.
(Ah! The things we learn when monitoring live shots on a continuing news story ;D ).

I would love for the NAB, the ARRL, FCC and others, to become proactive in making some decent PSA's about the spectrum issues and about interference in particular. The old FCC "Interference Handbook" is now obsolete, and there are no plans to update it for Digital TV.

Although there are a few samples around, I'd love to see a forum where RFI could be specifically addressed, and where audio and video samples could be posted, with information on how to handle the different sources.