Let's make some freakin' lemonade!

[Mike Walker]

Yes by conversion I mean hybrid digital. It would not only be stupid, but quite illegal for stations to broadcast a digital only signal.

There are more radios out there each day, and more stations. New models appear all the time, and there are major initiatives to educate the public about what the hell HD Radio is. It may be the future (we'll see), but it sure as hell ain't THE PRESENT. Analog will not only co-exist for a long time, it will "rule" for a long time. Which is as it should be.

I think the switch-off of analog tv is WAY premature, and we've had digital tv for more than a decade. Most people still don't know what digital tv is, and are ignorant that analog tv will be switched off. When I've mentioned this to non-techie family and friends, NOT A SINGLE ONE has been aware that a "drop-dead" date for analog tv exists. Congress will almost certainly do something about this, especially since a Democratically controlled Congress that can't afford to piss off low income people who would be most affected by the demise of analog, because they can't afford a new tv or set-top box. My prediction is that there will be a LARGE outcry from people who "just didn't know" this was coming. There will be a backlash against Congress, and the Democrats won't want this on their head. Would you?

 

[R.F. Burns]

Yes by conversion I mean hybrid digital. It would not only be stupid, but quite illegal for stations to broadcast a digital only signal.

There are more radios out there each day, and more stations. New models appear all the time, and there are major initiatives to educate the public about what the hell HD Radio is. It may be the future (we'll see), but it sure as hell ain't THE PRESENT. Analog will not only co-exist for a long time, it will "rule" for a long time. Which is as it should be.

I think the switch-off of analog tv is WAY premature, and we've had digital tv for more than a decade. Most people still don't know what digital tv is, and are ignorant that analog tv will be switched off. When I've mentioned this to non-techie family and friends, NOT A SINGLE ONE has been aware that a "drop-dead" date for analog tv exists. Congress will almost certainly do something about this, especially since a Democratically controlled Congress that can't afford to piss off low income people who would be most affected by the demise of analog, because they can't afford a new tv or set-top box. My prediction is that there will be a LARGE outcry from people who "just didn't know" this was coming. There will be a backlash against Congress, and the Democrats won't want this on their head. Would you?

Most people won't even notice that their over the air television signal is no longer there. I can't give you figures but I've eben told that the majority of television viewers receive their signals via cable or satellite. As long as those two distributers continue to support analog television as far as the consumer is concerned nothng will have changed.

 

[Mike Walker]

Rorive me RF, but this is a classic case of people from big cities thinking their experience is the only one. TRUST ME, in rural areas PLENTY of people don't have satellite or cable, and never will. Especially elderly and low income people. Neither of my grandparents ever had cable or satellite. Neither did my wife's mother, her (my wife's) brother, or until recently her sister. My cousins don't have cable or satellite. Neither do many of my neighbors (I have been a DirecTV subscriber for years, and have cable internet. I won't get cable tv again...my wife having worked for the local cable office for years. The first thing we did when she quit was drop cable and get DirecTV...that's what we thought of cable. But I digress!)

There are LOTS of people who get their tv over the air. Ask a tv dealer in a small town. Besides...and this is importantt...over the air HDTV is OF BETTER QUALITY (higher bitrate) than cable OR satellite HDTV.

Need another reason to NEVER turn off analog tv? Ice storms (in rural areas). They happen several times most winters here in the NC foothills. And we usually lose power. I can get the local weather on my battery-operated analog tvs. THERE ARE NO EQUIVALENT DIGITAL PRODUCTS! I would have NO access to tv during the most serious weather conditions without analog.

There may come a day for turning off analog. That day ain't here yet! Not by a long shot.

 

[stevenNOLA]

Rorive me RF, but this is a classic case of people from big cities thinking their experience is the only one. TRUST ME, in rural areas PLENTY of people don't have satellite or cable, and never will. Especially elderly and low income people. Neither of my grandparents ever had cable or satellite. Neither did my wife's mother, her (my wife's) brother, or until recently her sister. My cousins don't have cable or satellite. Neither do many of my neighbors (I have been a DirecTV subscriber for years, and have cable internet. I won't get cable tv again...my wife having worked for the local cable office for years. The first thing we did when she quit was drop cable and get DirecTV...that's what we thought of cable. But I digress!)

There are LOTS of people who get their tv over the air. Ask a tv dealer in a small town. Besides...and this is importantt...over the air HDTV is OF BETTER QUALITY (higher bitrate) than cable OR satellite HDTV.

Need another reason to NEVER turn off analog tv? Ice storms (in rural areas). They happen several times most winters here in the NC foothills. And we usually lose power. I can get the local weather on my battery-operated analog tvs. THERE ARE NO EQUIVALENT DIGITAL PRODUCTS! I would have NO access to tv during the most serious weather conditions without analog.

There may come a day for turning off analog. That day ain't here yet! Not by a long shot.

I know I have more gadgets than the average joe but I solved that problem with a 1500 watt power inverter ($80 at wal-mart) that runs my bigscreen HDTV and my dishnetwork receiver.

 

[Kelly]

The sound is nothing short of glorious; full frequency response, incredible separation and NO digital artifacts. Hearing AM this way gives me a sense of what the band was really capable of. What a pity!

The real world has thunderstorms, the aurora borealis, light dimmers and computers.

All of which mute, or rebuffer HD digital signals.
HD signals are so subject to interference from these sources that the often required external antennas have to be far removed from the HD radios. This in spite of the fact that the standard supplied connected antennas on the same HD radios pick up analog AM and FM perfectly.
HD radios interfere with HD digital reception themselves, outside interference just makes it worse.

Even when AM stations used to run analog audio out to 14-15kHz, received noise was typically -30dB on average, and IMD exceeded 40% with asymmetrical modulation. On AM-HD, even with coding artifacts typical of a slower rate Mp3 file, noise is greater than 70dB and IMD runs in the <1% range tops, with high frequency response is in the neighborhood of 15 kHZ.

From my testing, I don't believe a outside antenna is required due to terrestrial interference, in fact quite the opposite. The reason an outside antenna is required is due to less receiver sensitivity, a byproduct of having to be so broadband at the input. Actually the AM-IBOC receiver is surprisingly immune to terrestrial noise, they just need to find the best combination of sensitivity and equalization/bandwidth at the RX chip.

The other interesting thing that has been discussed is the adjacent channel interference to another station in skywave conditions. I don't believe that is going to be all that bad. Once again in testing, I found that it takes a lot of sideband noise to completely stop reception of the bitstream, even with the FEC and delay reduced. For those of you DXing, in theory clean reception should actually be easier of a distant digital carrier, even with a adjacent also digitally modulated adjacent channel.

 

[R.F. Burns]

The sound is nothing short of glorious; full frequency response, incredible separation and NO digital artifacts. Hearing AM this way gives me a sense of what the band was really capable of. What a pity!

The real world has thunderstorms, the aurora borealis, light dimmers and computers.

All of which mute, or rebuffer HD digital signals.
HD signals are so subject to interference from these sources that the often required external antennas have to be far removed from the HD radios. This in spite of the fact that the standard supplied connected antennas on the same HD radios pick up analog AM and FM perfectly.
HD radios interfere with HD digital reception themselves, outside interference just makes it worse.

Even when AM stations used to run analog audio out to 14-15kHz, received noise was typically -30dB on average, and IMD exceeded 40% with asymmetrical modulation. On AM-HD, even with coding artifacts typical of a slower rate Mp3 file, noise is greater than 70dB and IMD runs in the <1% range tops, with high frequency response is in the neighborhood of 15 kHZ.

From my testing, I don't believe a outside antenna is required due to terrestrial interference, in fact quite the opposite. The reason an outside antenna is required is due to less receiver sensitivity, a byproduct of having to be so broadband at the input. Actually the AM-IBOC receiver is surprisingly immune to terrestrial noise, they just need to find the best combination of sensitivity and equalization/bandwidth at the RX chip.

The other interesting thing that has been discussed is the adjacent channel interference to another station in skywave conditions. I don't believe that is going to be all that bad. Once again in testing, I found that it takes a lot of sideband noise to completely stop reception of the bitstream, even with the FEC and delay reduced. For those of you DXing, in theory clean reception should actually be easier of a distant digital carrier, even with a adjacent also digitally modulated adjacent channel.

How aboiut phase issues which will be caused by reflection off the ionosphere? I've never DX'd HD but am looking forward to it. With my receptor and a loop I received stations from states like Alabama which i in NY have never heard up here before. Thank you DSP.

 

[Mike Walker]

Again...makin' lemonade can be cool! I also look forward to dxing AM HD. I've been trying near sunrise and sunset, but so far no luck.

 

[PocketRadio]

Again...makin' lemonade can be cool! I also look forward to dxing AM HD. I've been trying near sunrise and sunset, but so far no luck.

HD radio or not, isn't it true that when HD lights up at night and potentially causes massive interference, no one is going to be able to DX, if there are local, adjacent 50kw HD-AM stations ? Can't adjacent AM-HD skywaves interfer with each other, too ?

 

[R.F. Burns]

Again...makin' lemonade can be cool! I also look forward to dxing AM HD. I've been trying near sunrise and sunset, but so far no luck.

HD radio or not, isn't it true that when HD lights up at night and potentially causes massive interference, no one is going to be able to DX, if there are local, adjacent 50kw HD-AM stations ? Can't adjacent AM-HD skywaves interfer with each other, too ?

We'll find out soon enough won't we?

 

[Mike Walker]

And no it isn't true that nobody will be able to dx. DXing is listening for, receiving, and logging distant stations. HD MAY impair reception of distant stations (again, we'll see as RF said), but it only a technical idiot would think it will "eliminate" it. The HD information is 100 times weaker than analog!

I have no doubt that SOME stations will SOMETIMES be more difficult to receive. But impossible? Come on! I'm not in love with AM HD, and I don't believe that!

 

[tomservo]

There are LOTS of people who get their tv over the air. Ask a tv dealer in a small town. Besides...and this is importantt...over the air HDTV is OF BETTER QUALITY (higher bitrate) than cable OR satellite HDTV.

There is a date set for a forced shutdown of analog signals... Of course there was one before that got moved, so maybe they'll put it off again...

As for the poor, elderly ruralites who'll be left cold, the gub-mint's answer right now has been appropriate a lot of money to subsidize D/A converters for low income households. AFAIK, the program is already in the "git going" stages, so even those without a fancy new digital TV will be able to receive those digital signals off-air, through the converter.

I very seriously doubt that the FCC will ever mandate digital-hybrid. Can you imagine what the high cost of converting small town mom-n-pop outlets would do to them? It just won't be economically feasable anytime soon, if ever. This is, of course, my opinion. I could be wrong. I never thought the FCC would approve IBOC on AM at night, so there... What do I know? :

 

[R.F. Burns]

There are LOTS of people who get their tv over the air. Ask a tv dealer in a small town. Besides...and this is importantt...over the air HDTV is OF BETTER QUALITY (higher bitrate) than cable OR satellite HDTV.

There is a date set for a forced shutdown of analog signals... Of course there was one before that got moved, so maybe they'll put it off again...

As for the poor, elderly ruralites who'll be left cold, the gub-mint's answer right now has been appropriate a lot of money to subsidize D/A converters for low income households. AFAIK, the program is already in the "git going" stages, so even those without a fancy new digital TV will be able to receive those digital signals off-air, through the converter.

I very seriously doubt that the FCC will ever mandate digital-hybrid. Can you imagine what the high cost of converting small town mom-n-pop outlets would do to them? It just won't be economically feasable anytime soon, if ever. This is, of course, my opinion. I could be wrong. I never thought the FCC would approve IBOC on AM at night, so there... What do I know? :

Hi forgive my NY charm (know nationally as cynicism). Have you read the FCC ruling? There is NO DATE SET FOR analog shutdown. That shutdown only applies to television.

 

[tomservo]

I know it only applies to television, R.F. - I was using it as a springboard to show how unwise an analog sunset would be on radio.