Let's Rename This Board

[Darth_vader]

As long as things are still changing the way they are around here, I ought to shoot off an E Mail memo to the MBE/sysop suggesting they retitle this board "HD Radio Bashing". It seems like nearly every thread is from the same dozen or so people who hate the Ibiquity System, beating the same tired old stuff to death thread after thread after thread.

Some of us actually enjoy it, you know. In this podunk market where typical analogue choices consist of Air-1, right-wing mud, Way-FM, top-40, Calvary Chapel, hard rock, K-Love, left-wing mud, yet more Calvary Chapel and whatever little out-of-market "alternative" programming one can hope to DX that isn't being walked on by some other god translator, it's nice to have a wider array of music programming available when the CD player or network streaming aren't options.

I don't mind buying a quality product, and until somebody manages to hack together a decent ATSC-based DAB system that really flies (don't count on EU147 or DRM having a chance here; their open nature obviates any chance of F¢¢ approval) the Ibiquity System is a decent quality product for our time. Sure, there are some aspects of it that I don't like. Guess what: I don't make a point of repeating it like a broken record for 160 pages! Hate if you want. I enjoy actually having a real choice and not having to give my money to Corporation X month after month in order to do so.[/rant]

[size=8pt](Apologies to "jo-nathan". Just taking the liberty.)

 

[audioguy]

It's a discussion board, so people talk about things that matter to them. They express their opinions, pro and con. If HD radio worked well, people would be crowing about their success stories and talking about all the great things they are accomplishing. But it does not work well, so people discuss the problems they have to deal with, and possible ways to overcome them. Like, as far as I am concerned, getting rid of the whole darned thing, especially on AM, before it causes our industry to die a painful death.

If you want the HD love fest channel, you could just surf on over to the Ibiquity web site where, I assume, all is wonderful with so-called HD radio.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

If I hated HD radio, I wouldn't have three of them. It is just one more vehicle to deliver the formats I like. In Houston, it is a viable option because the analog formats are so awful. As I've said before on here, if HD didn't interfere with first adjacents, and if it worked reliably, there would be no detractors.

 

[tomservo]

If I hate on HD radio, it has more to do with the local stations' shenanigans and poor receiver quality than the actual transmission system itself.

For example, I enjoy HD in that it works as well as could be expected for using a portable receiver in a car in motion, thanks to flat terrain and tall HAATs on FM. But I hate HD because local stations keep screwing it up, either through wilful negligence or bad hardware/software. HD brings me just two formats that I enjoy, though: smooth jazz (occasionally) and Clear Channel talk (nights only, when the local 1kW AM disappears into the mud). Still, that's two programmes more than I'd have otherwise.

The only problem is neither station can seem to keep their feeds going. They've been off since at least Isaac, which was dud for us, thankfully.

In fact, just a few months ago this was our FM HD dial, with pluses indicating multcasts:

88.1+ * 92.9 * 94.9+ * 96.1+ * 99.9+ * 100.7 * 101.5+ * 104.1 * 107.3+

Today, it's shrunk to this:

88.1+ * 94.9+ * 101.5 * 107.3

We've lost four extra formats (smooth jazz, talk, alt. rock and ESPN) because of unknown issues.

So yeah, I'm a hater to some degree, mad that stations can't seem to keep this running, either through engineering being too overworked and/or shoddy hardware on iBiquity's part.

 

[Savage]

Who's saying you can't enjoy HD Radio? If you like it, enjoy yourself, and God love ya. I'm sorry, but you wouldn't hear a peep from me - nor, I suspect would you from Local Oscillator - if our livelihoods and everything we've worked for in our adult lives, namely the radio stations we've built from nothing, weren't being threatened daily by roaring, unwarranted and cynically-imposed adjacent-channel IBOC interference.

For you, HD provides an interesting listening alternative. If it went away tomorrow you'd maybe be a little sad or annoyed, but life would go on for you. For me and for WYSL, there was no alternative but to spend $100,000+ to put an FM translator on the air to compensate for lost coverage. Thanks to WBZ-HD's sidebands WYSL's 20kw signal can be heard clearly in our market FIVE HOURS A DAY in December.

So excuse me....I do take the whole HD Radio fiasco seriously. There's a lot at stake for me and for the families I feed every week. A lot more than there is for you, and those like you on this board.

 

[tomservo]

For you, HD provides an interesting listening alternative. If it went away tomorrow you'd maybe be a little sad or annoyed, but life would go on for you. For me and for WYSL, there was no alternative but to spend $100,000+ to put an FM translator on the air to compensate for lost coverage. Thanks to WBZ-HD's sidebands WYSL's 20kw signal can be heard clearly in our market FIVE HOURS A DAY in December.

You can't tell me, though, that you're not getting more listeners now for being on FM than you would have if you had only your AM but were HD-interference free. It sounds like the HD interference actually spurred you on to make a wise investment in a translator.

 

[davideduardo]

So yeah, I'm a hater to some degree, mad that stations can't seem to keep this running, either through engineering being too overworked and/or shoddy hardware on iBiquity's part.

iBiquity does not make hardware. It "developed" the technology and licenses it to the equipment manufacturers who provide transmitters to broadcast stations.

What is really at issue is that few HD equipped stations have equipped their auxiliary transmitters with HD, and in the recession and post-recession years nobody is thinking about doing that. So if the main transmitter is off, so is HD. If the HD needs repairs, nobody is going to take the main off the air to fix the HD.

Managers of local stations for larger corporations don't see bonuses from HD, and are fond of letting them go off so the savings in power and other costs can be realized.

Many AM engineers quietly flip off HD either out of common sense or to prevent the HD system from needlessly pulling the station off the air or causing maintenance issues. AM has its own set of problems without adding HD to them. Example: I can no longer bear to listen for a news update on KNX in LA on my car radio, because KNX has allowed the HD and analog audio to be out of synchronization so that in areas with less than about 12 mV/m signal, it's like listening to slapback echo as the HD detects and drops.

 

[diymedia]

You can't tell me, though, that you're not getting more listeners now for being on FM than you would have if you had only your AM but were HD-interference free. It sounds like the HD interference actually spurred you on to make a wise investment in a translator.

Yeah, because that was the original intent of the translator service - which has been warped beyond all recognition in the last decade. This is, of course, another thread for another board.

 

[Tom Wells]

In view of the waning fortunes of ibiquity's system ( and the divisive situation it creates ), perhaps it wold be best to rename
the board to "digital modes radio"

The full digital plan would make me happy if it lived in spectrum the military refuses to relinquish.

Digital signals intermixed with analog signals are simply treating the symptom with more disease.

I suppose I'm tagged as a HD hater but I bought two of em, and both are unlistenable on AM due to pillow-muffling.
The "regular" DSP that all the analog goes through completely steamrollers dynamics and sounds like an old radio where the
filter capacitor is failing but the radio still "kinda" works.

Also sounds like there is no effective AVC action, or a really annoying time constant chosen to eliminate dynamics.

That's a game killer for me. I'm not going to have separate radios for separate stations.

If a radio sounds awful on regular AM decode, it's just going to gather dust.

 

[iyiyi]

... pillow-muffling ...

Pillow-muffling???



-

 

[davideduardo]

I suppose I'm tagged as a HD hater but I bought two of em, and both are unlistenable on AM due to pillow-muffling.
The "regular" DSP that all the analog goes through completely steamrollers dynamics and sounds like an old radio where the
filter capacitor is failing but the radio still "kinda" works.

Also sounds like there is no effective AVC action, or a really annoying time constant chosen to eliminate dynamics.

Audio processing is not part of HD. A "good" station should have different processing for the analog and digital audio, just as they should have separate processing for an Internet stream.

We can blame HD for a number of things, but this is not one of them.

And... even the "dueling CODEC" problem of many (of the few) AM HD stations can be pretty well resolved with good engineering as KFI in LA has proven.

And, like ayeyiyi, I have no idea what "pillow muffling" is, as picturesque as the term may sound.

 

[Darth_vader]

"Perhaps it wold be best to rename the board to 'Digital-Modes Radio'."

That makes sense. I don't know why they didn't set it up as a non format-centric "general" DAB-oriented forum to begin with, inclusive of all the terrestrial "digital audio" formats (147, Ibiquity, DRM, TV-based systems etc.) instead of focussing only on the one system. They must have their reason.

At least that's what I would have done, anyways.

 

[Tom Wells]

I suppose I'm tagged as a HD hater but I bought two of em, and both are unlistenable on AM due to pillow-muffling.
The "regular" DSP that all the analog goes through completely steamrollers dynamics and sounds like an old radio where the
filter capacitor is failing but the radio still "kinda" works.

Also sounds like there is no effective AVC action, or a really annoying time constant chosen to eliminate dynamics.

Audio processing is not part of HD. A "good" station should have different processing for the analog and digital audio, just as they should have separate processing for an Internet stream.

We can blame HD for a number of things, but this is not one of them.

And... even the "dueling CODEC" problem of many (of the few) AM HD stations can be pretty well resolved with good engineering as KFI in LA has proven.

And, like ayeyiyi, I have no idea what "pillow muffling" is, as picturesque as the term may sound.

It's no use, being obtuse.

I'm not addressing the audio of the station, I'm addressing the resultant AM analog audio, AS reproduced by a "radio" that decodes ibiquity's
proprietary system.

I have worked years to make my AM sound just like the best-ever air monitor did in huge AMs in the glory days.
And I then I listen on the HD radios, and it sounds like absolute crud!

Surely you have encountered the ability of a pillow to muffle audio when accurately applied.

A pillow is a fine thing, if you're trying to muffle a scream, or make an AM radio sound like a 1926 Grebe Synchro-phase on a horn speaker.

I have a 1927 Atwater Kent model 35 with the model G dynamic speaker, and I honestly think if we did a spectral repsonse curve
on that versus the RS Accurian or the Kenwood HD car radio, the Atwater Kent with the horn speaker would have better sibilant definition
for AM broadcast.

Both examples I purchased make every AM signal sound awful, particulary high level signals.
At very low signal levels they resemble the response of comm receiver set to 3khz with a very fast AGC, perfectly satisfying
sensitivity on the Kenwood with a real whip antenna, but PAINFULLY DULL.



While typing this, I have been watching the AM signal envelope of the Beatles' "Revolution" on the o-scope running 150% modulation.
That's some fun waveform!
Praise to Breakaway and the technology that permits such amazing reproduction.
Nuts to those who would use a position of "digital" to disrespect and devalue the essential analog.

 

[nd2023]

I suppose I'm tagged as a HD hater but I bought two of em, and both are unlistenable on AM due to pillow-muffling.
The "regular" DSP that all the analog goes through completely steamrollers dynamics and sounds like an old radio where the
filter capacitor is failing but the radio still "kinda" works.

Also sounds like there is no effective AVC action, or a really annoying time constant chosen to eliminate dynamics.

Audio processing is not part of HD. A "good" station should have different processing for the analog and digital audio, just as they should have separate processing for an Internet stream.

We can blame HD for a number of things, but this is not one of them.

And... even the "dueling CODEC" problem of many (of the few) AM HD stations can be pretty well resolved with good engineering as KFI in LA has proven.

And, like ayeyiyi, I have no idea what "pillow muffling" is, as picturesque as the term may sound.

No they should not have different processing for the analog and HD, because the HD goes in and out for the majority of the coverage area. It is annoying to hear the audio processing change when the HD goes in and out.

 

[kenglish]

Has anyone made any progress on getting HD Radio taken off the air, by simply bitching on this forum? ;D

 

[pianoplayer88key]

With the dogfights I frequently see on this board, I was thinking more along the lines of move the entire HD Radio section to Take It Outside. ;D : I would like to see some type of digital radio / improvement, but I'm probably almost as much of a fan of the Ibiquity system as God and Satan are fans of each other. (I'll withhold more detailed complaints & preferences from this post.)

 

[Darth_vader]

"Has anyone made any progress on getting the Ibiquity System taken off the air, by simply bitching on this forum?"

I wouldn't put a chip on it, myself...

"With the dogfights I frequently see on this board, I was thinking more along the lines of move the entire 'HD Radio' section to 'Take It Outside'."

I've actually suggested that to the sysop, a couple different times! I guess you can see how far I managed to get in my endeavours.

 

[KB1OKL]

With the dogfights I frequently see on this board, I was thinking more along the lines of move the entire HD Radio section to Take It Outside. ;D : I would like to see some type of digital radio / improvement, but I'm probably almost as much of a fan of the Ibiquity system as God and Satan are fans of each other. (I'll withhold more detailed complaints & preferences from this post.)

Threads have been moved to TIO occasionally but the common denominator in most (all?) of them has been banned and it doesn't happen anymore. Since then our discussions are usually civil and there's no need.

 

[Darth_vader]

Heh, if it's the same user I'm thinking of, I hear he even got banned from Usenet recently!

 

[kenglish]

I read where Savage moved his station by 10 KHz, to avoid WBZ. Now, the IBOC sidebands are interfering. Any chance of changing frequency again, or making adjustments to his, or WBZ's, patterns? Running IBOC with unbalanced sidebands?