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Lib Station Discovers It's Better To Go Black

Or maybe putting a station on a weak AM signal in a major market that's crowded requires more effort to reach anyone, be they liberal or conservative.

I don't know if there were ads for WDTW. Did they invest in targeted ads to people on Facebook that were obviously interested in progressive or Democratic causes? They could have.

My belief is weak signal + no marketing will not = people finding your product.

Regardless of where on the political spectrum it falls.
 
schmave said:
But if liberal talk couldn't succeed in Detroit, that's pretty telling. A station here in Columbus has failed twice carrying the format (granted everywhere in Ohio outside the northeast and core urban areas is majority right). Then again, Michigan approved right-to-work recently and a lot of people, including me, probably didn't see that coming.

Is it changing demographics or the simple fact liberals repeatedly have shown they have no idea how to make the format work?

All of my life, radio has been changing but most of us did not see immediately how it was changing, or how that change would affect us, whether we were part of the industry, or part of the audience.

There is a bit of humor, sometimes told BY old people, some times told ABOUT old people: "Life is like a roll of toilet paper.... the nearer to the end you get, the faster it spins."

Not too many years ago, radio was not a "sides-taker". People inside and outside of radio assumed that unlike newspapers, radio was not to take sides on political issues. In the hey-day of radio stations taking a stab at "on air editorials" there were messages in support of civic projects which then tended to not be political in nature. Support the Industrial Development Committee. Support the Human Rights efforts. Support the bond issue for a new sewer system in your town. Give-or-take 20 years ago, all of that changed. We can say the success of Rush Limbaugh was because he is an extraordinary talent, or we can say the success came because radio decided it could swim in the "pool of political controversy". Twenty years from now, maybe we can come to some agreements on what the mixture of talent and raw opportunity was.

Anybody who claims to know whether progressive programming will eventually work on radio or not is simply whistling in the dark while walking down the street that cuts through the graveyard. I would argue that the jury is still out on that one. Based on what we see right now, a number of people take some comfort in one of two positions: (1) Liberal radio will not work. (2) Progressives at this point have no concept of how to make use of radio.

What we are seeing right now in Michigan and Ohio and other "Rust Belt" states is equally hard to explain. And since I no longer live in that area, I am not in a position to observe and judge how radio is dealing with the question we are discussing, and not in a position to observe and judge how progressives are dealing with capturing the power of radio.

I have no comfort level, however, with those who declare with assurance that we have now proven for a fact that it is impossible to have successful liberal/progressive radio. We went through a lot of years of listening to Rush before we moved from seeing him as a fluke and seeing him as a success.

We are still in... but apparently coming out of a really lousy economic period as a nation, which in turn has forced broadcasters to hunker-down, spend less effort experimenting and more effort identifying and adopting ideas that are "proven successes".

We may to put this conversation on hold for about 10 years and then reconvene the club for further discussion of all this deep philosophical questions. In the meantime, radio must continue to survive, succeed and plow ahead.... and both political camps mus continue to survive, succeed and plow ahead.
 
stevensonair said:
When you put a format on an AM signal, with very little marketing or local content, and lackluster sales effort - it's not exactly a surprise the audience doesn't find it.

I've heard many prog-talk AMs (and third tier conservative AMs) that are often neglected and left to run off a "computer in a closet" - then, they go off the air and people wonder why.

Put very little effort in, it won't survive regardless of where on the political spectrum the programming resides.

Agreed that promotion and marketing is needed for a successful operation. However, Limbaugh used to be on sticks like that (before he went "big time). He generally got 3 or 4 times the ratings the current crop of Libtalkers do...and usually all the promotion he got were what the station could trade out. I know. I worked for one.
 
Absolutely correct. If the product is good, it will catch fire. Prog Talk was given an outlet in many markets. For whatever reason, and I don't know the reason, it didn't catch on. The 1310 donation is indicative of this.
 
umfan said:
Absolutely correct. If the product is good, it will catch fire. Prog Talk was given an outlet in many markets. For whatever reason, and I don't know the reason, it didn't catch on. The 1310 donation is indicative of this.

There are some who disagree, but the main reason seems to be that a lot of the left-of-center audience just doesn't care that much for talk radio in general and would either listen to music or the more measured NPR approach to news/talk. I would especially point out that a lot of the people who complained about WDET dropping daytime AAA for news-talk a few years ago seemed to be coming from the left end of the political spectrum, if it was expressed (the far left likes NPR about as much as the far right).
 
So, is it true that once you've gone black you'll never go back? ???
 
FreddyE1977 said:
So, is it true that once you've gone black you'll never go back? ???

The proper term is going dark. This thread should have never carried the title ".... go black".

I know that there's some cleverness going on here with the station going to the MMTC....

Ever try to BUY something through the MMTC? Screwy deals.
 
Mark Jeffries said:
............ main reason seems to be that a lot of the left-of-center audience just doesn't care that much for talk radio in general and would either listen to music or the more measured NPR approach to news/talk. I would especially point out that a lot of the people who complained about WDET dropping daytime AAA for news-talk a few years ago seemed to be coming from the left end of the political spectrum, if it was expressed (the far left likes NPR about as much as the far right).

We may have a change of saving this civilization if we can ever get it across to some people that this not only The Left and The Right, but there is also the FAR Left and the FAR Right.

The FAR Left is loath to recognize that they are NOT "The Left". The FAR Right is loath to recognize that they are NOT "The Right".

In these forums we cannot have an intelligent discussion about Talk Radio because people who post are unable to recognize WHICH of those groups they belong to, and are unable to ADMIT which group they belong to when others point out to them "what color their tail-feathers are."

And heaven help us if we try to decide if there are any TRUE CENTRISTS in the world. Have you ever noticed that people in the FAR LEFT think they are in the center; people in the FAR RIGHT think they are in the center and sometimes get pretty hostile if you assure them they are NOT!

Now wonder an A.M. station in Detroit did not leave "a well marked trail" behind them for us to follow.
 
I think somebody needs to quickly act to get this thing back on the air. It is so much better than some other AM facilities in the market that it would be a shame to lose it. Goofy FCC rules add to goofy deals. Somebody needs to quickly make some kind of deal, a coalition of potential buyers maybe, and find a tower to diplex on STA nondirectional. 1250 watts Omni day and night is probably what they could get. There are some stations that have gone for years on such an arrangement. In this year's vernacular, it "kicks the can down the road".
 
Mark Jeffries said:
umfan said:
Absolutely correct. If the product is good, it will catch fire. Prog Talk was given an outlet in many markets. For whatever reason, and I don't know the reason, it didn't catch on. The 1310 donation is indicative of this.

There are some who disagree, but the main reason seems to be that a lot of the left-of-center audience just doesn't care that much for talk radio in general and would either listen to music or the more measured NPR approach to news/talk. I would especially point out that a lot of the people who complained about WDET dropping daytime AAA for news-talk a few years ago seemed to be coming from the left end of the political spectrum, if it was expressed (the far left likes NPR about as much as the far right).

Liberal talk also failed in Ann Arbor, of all places. But on the other hand, WUOM OWNS Ann Arbor.
 
Schroedingers Cat said:
I think somebody needs to quickly act to get this thing back on the air. It is so much better than some other AM facilities in the market that it would be a shame to lose it. Goofy FCC rules add to goofy deals. Somebody needs to quickly make some kind of deal, a coalition of potential buyers maybe, and find a tower to diplex on STA nondirectional. 1250 watts Omni day and night is probably what they could get. There are some stations that have gone for years on such an arrangement. In this year's vernacular, it "kicks the can down the road".

1250 watts omni may be about right for daytime (depending on exact site and tower height), but at night, more like 20 or 30!

But you're absolutely right that a license that delivers an acceptable daytime signal to 4M+ people is still worth something and they should be kicking the can down the road NOW.
 
1L6E6VHF said:
1250 watts omni may be about right for daytime (depending on exact site and tower height), but at night, more like 20 or 30!

For fully licensed operation as a non-directional station, yes, that's probably going to be true. But the FCC grants near-blanket permission for stations licensed directionally to operate ND under special temporary authority at 25% of licensed DA power. With an appropriate showing that the licensed facility is no longer available and that an effort is being made to secure a replacement, that STA can be renewed at six-month increments nearly indefinitely.
 
From FCC applications online, I was able to find the NIFs of the nearby 1310s. Indianapolis is the most restrictive, and yes, the power that could be licensed Omni Class D is about 30 watts night. But that's assuming that the station continues to be licensed, and that will require them to find a tower to use to get the thing back on the air. If they reapplied after deletion, it would be like a new station, and they would have to be Class B. But then they would also have to fully protect to the 25% RSS limit to WCCW. If it stays licensed, they would be able to use around 4 kW directional with a pattern similar to the licensed night pattern. It's a Catch 22 situation, and it is imperative to get the thing back on Omni STA within the next few months. Daytime overlap is similar. They just have to reduce overlap now, whereas if they reapplied for the frequency, they would also have to fully protect WILS and WOBL.

This situation is not unusual. Even some of the biggest stations in the country could not reapply for their current frequency if the license was deleted. It just wouldn't fit under newer rules. They are MORE RESTRICTIVE for new licenses. There are loopholes, but for a new site, they could be very expensive to do a complete site study with full testing with a temporary antenna.
 
Schroedingers Cat said:
From FCC applications online, I was able to find the NIFs of the nearby 1310s. Indianapolis is the most restrictive, and yes, the power that could be licensed Omni Class D is about 30 watts night....

Useful info. I had always thought WIBA (Madison) was the biggie. What has always been true is that WIBA and CIWW leave WDTW a pretty narrow window to the North.

Schroedingers Cat said:
....they would have to be Class B. But then they would also have to fully protect to the 25% RSS limit to WCCW.

Fortunately, WCCW's NIF limit is sky high. It is also almost impossible to interfere with WCCW's day signal. Despite the fact that the area shows 8 micromho on the M3 conductivity map, the areas around WCCW measure out at 1.0, 0.5, even 0.1 (!) micromho. (My days in the 80s listening to the radio on vacation up there show that the soil is actually that bad!)

Schroedingers Cat said:
.......and it is imperative to get the thing back on Omni STA within the next few months.

Absolutely agreed! I already posted a more detailed short-term plan on the other WDTW-demise thread ("Another Kind of Countdown")
 
As I recall, WIBA is further away and/or has a higher NIF. I will look it up but for now, I have to post before it disappears from the screen like it has been doing. The thing that is confusing is that Indianapolis is 1 kW night but has a quite low NIF. It may have been III-A. Madison is 5 kW night, and was probably III-A, but not all 5 kW night were III-A and not all 1 kW night were III-B. That's why you thought WIBA was more restrictive. Now I'll look it up.
 
Turns out that WIBA's NIF is quite a bit lower, but it's further away. WTLC is quite close, but the NIF is higher. They're probably both in the 25-30 watt Omni range from WDTW. Both look like WDTW is a 25% contributor, so they don't have to pull in any more. WDTW is a 50% contributor to WCCW, so they have to reduce 10%, or about 4 kW if they were able to build an identical array across the street. I'm not sure a new licensee would be considered by the FCC to have lost the site involuntarily, but since it is beyond their control, perhaps they could argue that and not be ratcheted.
 
Schroedingers Cat said:
I think somebody needs to quickly act to get this thing back on the air. It is so much better than some other AM facilities in the market that it would be a shame to lose it. Goofy FCC rules add to goofy deals. Somebody needs to quickly make some kind of deal, a coalition of potential buyers maybe, and find a tower to diplex on STA nondirectional. 1250 watts Omni day and night is probably what they could get. There are some stations that have gone for years on such an arrangement. In this year's vernacular, it "kicks the can down the road".

I know that the norm is to get 1/4 the directional power. However, it would depend on where the tower site it. They'd still have to cover Dearborn, city grade.
 
Scott Fybush said:
1L6E6VHF said:
1250 watts omni may be about right for daytime (depending on exact site and tower height), but at night, more like 20 or 30!

For fully licensed operation as a non-directional station, yes, that's probably going to be true. But the FCC grants near-blanket permission for stations licensed directionally to operate ND under special temporary authority at 25% of licensed DA power. With an appropriate showing that the licensed facility is no longer available and that an effort is being made to secure a replacement, that STA can be renewed at six-month increments nearly indefinitely.

Did they lose the site or give it up? That may make a difference.

I had WLQV on an STA for years. At the time it cost 125 bucks to renew it.
 
jry said:
I know that the norm is to get 1/4 the directional power. However, it would depend on where the tower site it. They'd still have to cover Dearborn, city grade.

Do you need to meet principal community coverage with a STA? (I've seen STAs granted with as little as 25 watts)
 
It looks good on the STA application if it includes an exhibit showing that it puts a 5 mV/m signal over the COL, but I don't think it's a requirement. You do what you have to to get it back on the air. Sometimes it's not ideal. A new licensed location will have to put a 5 mV/m over the COL. Also, 80% of the COL has to get a NIF signal, and that's in the 11 mV/m range.
 
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