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Long Wave broadcasting over telephone lines

J

JasonW

Guest
Hello All,I don't know if we could do this in the US under the Part 15 rules for Long Wave broadcasting, but I came across an interesting Long Wave Carrier Current system that is used in Switzerland. In the Wikipedia www.wikipedia.org entry for "AM radio," the article briefly mentions that:"In Switzerland a system known as "wire broadcasting" transmits AM signals over telephone lines in the longwave band."Has anyone here ever tried this experimentally? (During World War II, Carrier Current was the only form of radio that Hams were allowed to use.) -- Jason
 
It's illegal to use the telephone companies lines for RF transmission without their permission. (Unlikely).
 
JasonW said:
(During World War II, Carrier Current was the only form of radio that Hams were allowed to use.) -- Jason
Jason,care to expound on that? I never heard of such operations...Hams were not allowed to operate at ALL during WWII.
 
CW said:
JasonW said:
(During World War II, Carrier Current was the only form of radio that Hams were allowed to use.) -- Jason
Jason,care to expound on that? I never heard of such operations...Hams were not allowed to operate at ALL during WWII.
I used to have old ARRL handbooks from 1945 and 1953 that contained Carrier Current Ham radio articles (with schematics) that said this. Also, Ernest G. Wilson's 1990 book "Carrier Current Techniques: Wired-wireless broadcasting" mentions that only Carrier Current Ham radio was permitted during World War II. -- Jason
 
SUPERCASTER said:
Carrier current broadcasts over AC power lines, not telephone lines.
That's a given. I had never heard of anyone using telephone lines for Carrier Current broadcasting until I read about the Swiss example.The only other alternatives to using AC power lines are those installations that use purpose-designed "leaky coax" radiating cables terminated with dummy loads. These work well but are much less common due to the high cost of the special cable. -- Jason
 
in the former Soviet Union, they had a sort of a "radio service"
that did operate over telephone lines...actually a large-scale
version of your grade school's intercom system, with lines being run
to individual apartments. I believe this was very early on, around
1930 or so. Legend says that this was becuase under
Communism they could not even produce enough technology/decent
parts for radios, but a more likely explanation was that the Party
wanted to keep absolute and total control over what people were
able to listen to.
 
JasonW said:
Hello All,I don't know if we could do this in the US under the Part 15 rules for Long Wave broadcasting, but I came across an interesting Long Wave Carrier Current system that is used in Switzerland. In the Wikipedia www.wikipedia.org entry for "AM radio," the article briefly mentions that:"In Switzerland a system known as "wire broadcasting" transmits AM signals over telephone lines in the longwave band."Has anyone here ever tried this experimentally? (During World War II, Carrier Current was the only form of radio that Hams were allowed to use.) -- Jason

I could imagine the noise level if so, or near a leaky transformer. It's worst then nails on a blackboard.
 
FreddyE1977 said:
in the former Soviet Union, they had a sort of a "radio service"
that did operate over telephone lines...actually a large-scale
version of your grade school's intercom system, with lines being run
to individual apartments. I believe this was very early on, around
1930 or so. Legend says that this was becuase under
Communism they could not even produce enough technology/decent
parts for radios, but a more likely explanation was that the Party
wanted to keep absolute and total control over what people were
able to listen to.

I wonder if North Korea (the DPRK) has something similar? I've read that every home in North Korea has a speaker on the wall, through which the government communicates directly to the people. This system may be Carrier Current radio, or it could be a hard-wired public address system.

I'll say one thing--whichever it is, when the DPRK government finally falls, it will make one heckuva commercial national radio network for the country, with 100% reception everywhere. Ironically, it could (depending on what exact wiring scheme it uses) make Cable FM and/or internet access to the outside world easier when they are finally free. -- Jason
 
JasonW said:
Hello All,I don't know if we could do this in the US under the Part 15 rules for Long Wave broadcasting, but I came across an interesting Long Wave Carrier Current system that is used in Switzerland. In the Wikipedia www.wikipedia.org entry for "AM radio," the article briefly mentions that:"In Switzerland a system known as "wire broadcasting" transmits AM signals over telephone lines in the longwave band."Has anyone here ever tried this experimentally? (During World War II, Carrier Current was the only form of radio that Hams were allowed to use.) -- Jason

Not over telephone lines...but electrical lines, yes....In the US its now called BPL :(

You can use the power lines to radiate (long wires, insulated from ground??? HECK YEAH)...but coupling into them is one issue (usually done with capacitors) but by the time you hit a transformer, the signal gets killed to ground (the xfmr passes 60hz but not higher freqs).....I did such as a kid with a FM wireless mic...tied it to the AC wiring in the house with some 0.1 caps and fed my 8 track deck into it...sure enough, it covered the neighborhood....probably illegal under Part 15 and 73...but noone complained....

Hams were not permitted to send ANY signals at all during WWII...ALL radio emissions were terminated in the ham bands...wireless or not.
 
While illegal, this would have worked better 25 years ago when you had copper all the way back to the switch.
Now, telephones hit a mux box pretty soon. And besides, back then, most phones had all-passive circuits.
With the advent of powered phones and multiple semiconductor junctions inside, it takes next to no RF at all before
the signal shows up in the telephone audio.

If you live in the middle of nowhere, with no neighbors, this might not create any problems.
 
AM modulation into a telephone line is a real bad idea. Take it from one who tried this long ago.
First of all, telephone lines don't radiate very well. Second, it's a good way to make an involuntary
listener out of your neighbors.
If you really want to play with long wave, the FCC will let you have 1 watt and 50 feet of antenna between
160 and 190 KHz. If you have a friend with a long wave receiver, a good ground, and a long wire antenna-
you can have legal license free communications.
Think I'll just use my cell phone for this though.
 
Re: Long Wave broadcasting over telephone lines - Swiss style

Jason,

While I do not know all the exact technical details, I saw the Swiss Radio (SRG SSR) Wire Broadcasting "in action" as a listener during visits to that country many years ago. (1970s - 1980s?) Several hotels that I stayed in had a small radio in each guest room that was part of the Wire Broadcasting system. Basically these were small old tube sets, like a small AM table radio (in wood cabinets with cloth speaker covers, no less!). There was a volume/on/off control and a channel selector, which was either six pushbuttons or a rotary switch to select one of the 6 channels. There was an AC power cord and a separate UTP (Universal Tristed Pair) - style wire coming off the back of the set and plugged into a dedicated jack like a phone jack in the wall. The real phone however had a separate jack of a different type, so it would appear that the phone lines used for this system were separate from the regular telco lines.

The programming was usually rotated off the regular SRG SSR channels, of which there were proabaly one to two dozen, with multiple channels of all four Swiss languages, plus English from their shortwave programming.

I don't know the licensing deal there, but SRG SSR was at that time basically a non-profit monopoly (almost quasi-Govermnent) and the phone company was Government-owned, and like most Swiss institutions they probably cooperated. Also, radio and TV was supported mostly by license fees paid by people who owned radio sets (and TVs). If you didn't own a radio, you paid no fee, but if you did own one and neglected to pay your license fee, that was considered a (minor) crime.

I heard from some locals that also personally subscribed to the wire broadcasting for a fee.

I think the technical issues that lead to the development of wire broadcasting had to do with the challenges of good radio reception in the high, long, narrow and very sparsely populated valleys in the Alps. It would have been very costly to set up enough translator transmitters to ensure uniform and good coverage throughout the country. Imagine having to build a transmitter site miles from the power grid and equip it with the costly broadcast equipment (think 1950s or 1960s) up on mountains in a hostile environment. And then you only reached an additional 2,000 or 5,000 people if you were lucky.

And even in the cities, the hotels were concrete and steel girder structures that made a mess of regular AM reception. So the wire system was appealing there as well.

I think some other Western European countries, like Germany, the Netherlands, and others, had Wire Broadcasting as well.

Obviously broadcast technology eventually caught up. But it was a novel idea.
 
Tom Wells said:
While illegal, this would have worked better 25 years ago when you had copper all the way back to the switch.
Now, telephones hit a mux box pretty soon. And besides, back then, most phones had all-passive circuits.
With the advent of powered phones and multiple semiconductor junctions inside, it takes next to no RF at all before
the signal shows up in the telephone audio.

If you live in the middle of nowhere, with no neighbors, this might not create any problems.

Actually on the drop cables on overhead feeds would be the only part radiating...after you hit the main trunk cable, it is usually a flooded (with gel) AND shielded...thus any RF on the wires arent going anywhere! And those buried underground, shielded or not, the earth takes care of soaking the RF up ;)
But as you point out, the use of mux huts, DSLAMS, etc in the filed make cabling so short now, any RF would be wasted (if you can call it that!)
Better to use the AC lines like BPL WHHEEEE!!!!! just make sure you use capacitors rated at the correct voltage or else you might be shocked at the results ;)
 
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