Longwave in the Americas

[KTN Corp]

We all know that mainstream interest in broadcasting <30 MHz is at an all-time low due to iPods, internet radio, etc. Some have suggested expanding FM down to 76 MHz to accommodate existing AM stations. Does anybody see longwave as a supplement to the crowded mediumwave band or an expansion of broadcasting opportunities (new broadcasters)?

What frequencies will it use? We know that it will be spaced at 10 kHz but will the frequencies used be close to the European band of frequencies, below the existing MW band (<530 kHz), or somewhere else?

 

[KeithE4]

We all know that mainstream interest in broadcasting <30 MHz is at an all-time low due to iPods, internet radio, etc. Some have suggested expanding FM down to 76 MHz to accommodate existing AM stations. Does anybody see longwave as a supplement to the crowded mediumwave band or an expansion of broadcasting opportunities (new broadcasters)?

What frequencies will it use? We know that it will be spaced at 10 kHz but will the frequencies used be close to the European band of frequencies, below the existing MW band (<530 kHz), or somewhere else?

There has never been any longwave broadcasting in the western hemisphere, and there are almost no LW receivers in the hands of the general public. Only DXers and hams would have them, which is less than 3% of all radio listeners, assuming that every single ham operator has one (and they don't).

Frequencies below 88 MHz are becoming next-to-useless for broadcasting of any kind in North America (except for Cuba and American bible-bangers). Just ask the unfortunate TV stations who were fool enough to pick Channels 2-6 for DTV, or the AM stations that can't move to, or simulcast on FM. Outside of ham radio, CB, religious & propaganda broadcasters aimed mostly at Africa & Asia, and aircraft/marine/military backup systems, the lower frequencies are pretty much dead now. Satellites and the interwebs made them obsolete.

 

[TomT]

DSL uses a good chunk of the long wave (and up into medium wave). Not a pretty mix for in home listening, along with all the other sources of noise.

 

[Darth_vader]

Longwave will probably never be used for broadcasting here because it is being used for aero-nautical navigation beacons and DGPS.

"[T]here are almost no LW receivers in the hands of the general public."

Many of the better Radioshack SW-MW-FM radios had/ve LW for years. A number of the Grundig portables (like my Yacht Boy 400) also have it.

"Outside of two-way radio and religious propaganda broadcasters aimed mostly at Africa & Asia, and aircraft/marine/military backup systems, the lower frequencies are pretty much dead now. Satellites and the interwebs made them obsolete."

(corrections are my own.)

No, increasing amounts of poorly-regulated electrical noise from poorly-constructed and shielded electronic equipment did that. The only thing satellites and streaming did was make it irrelevant for domestic broadcasting.

 

[druidhillsradio]

Isn't <30 Mhz refered to as shortwave?

 

[TomT]

Yep

 

[Matt]

30kHz -> 300khz = Longwave
300kHz -> 3MHz = Medium Wave
3MHz -> 30MHz = Shortwave
30MHz -> 300MHz = VHF
300MHz -> 3GHZ = UHF

Later . . . .

 

[Darth_vader]

3 GHz - 30GHz = SHF
30 GHz - 300 GHz = EHF
300 GHz - 3 THz (and upward) = ???

 

[KeithE4]

Longwave will probably never be used for broadcasting here because it is being used for aero-nautical navigation beacons and DGPS.

"[T]here are almost no LW receivers in the hands of the general public."

Many of the better Radioshack SW-MW-FM radios had/ve LW for years. A number of the Grundig portables (like my Yacht Boy 400) also have it.

But how many of these receivers were actually sold? Compared to consumer AM/FM radios (and those are becoming fewer and fewer), I'll guess that they're a very small percentage.

"Outside of two-way radio and religious propaganda broadcasters aimed mostly at Africa & Asia, and aircraft/marine/military backup systems, the lower frequencies are pretty much dead now. Satellites and the interwebs made them obsolete."

(corrections are my own.)

No, increasing amounts of poorly-regulated electrical noise from poorly-constructed and shielded electronic equipment did that. The only thing satellites and streaming did was make it irrelevant for domestic broadcasting.

That certainly hasn't helped, but if anyone cared, those devices would have been redesigned, fixed, or replaced decades ago. But AM has been on a downward spiral for 40 years, and shortwave hasn't been in the mind of most non-hobbyist American consumers since the '60s at the latest. World War II is over. So are the most of the old-time international broadcasters.

It doesn't matter anymore if electrical devices spew their garbage all over the place. Comparatively few people are listening to frequencies below 88 MHz. Other than a few hundred AM stations that are still successful (and that number continues to drop), the lower frequencies are completely out of the American mainstream now.

 

[kinphoenix2]

Longwave will probably never be used for broadcasting here because it is being used for aero-nautical navigation beacons and DGPS.

"[T]here are almost no LW receivers in the hands of the general public."

Many of the better Radioshack SW-MW-FM radios had/ve LW for years. A number of the Grundig portables (like my Yacht Boy 400) also have it.

But how many of these receivers were actually sold? Compared to consumer AM/FM radios (and those are becoming fewer and fewer), I'll guess that they're a very small percentage.

"Outside of two-way radio and religious propaganda broadcasters aimed mostly at Africa & Asia, and aircraft/marine/military backup systems, the lower frequencies are pretty much dead now. Satellites and the interwebs made them obsolete."

(corrections are my own.)

No, increasing amounts of poorly-regulated electrical noise from poorly-constructed and shielded electronic equipment did that. The only thing satellites and streaming did was make it irrelevant for domestic broadcasting.

YOU SAID IT

That certainly hasn't helped, but if anyone cared, those devices would have been redesigned, fixed, or replaced decades ago. But AM has been on a downward spiral for 40 years, and shortwave hasn't been in the mind of most non-hobbyist American consumers since the '60s at the latest. World War II is over. So are the most of the old-time international broadcasters. I wish they DID care

It doesn't matter anymore if electrical devices spew their garbage all over the place. Comparatively few people are listening to frequencies below 88 MHz. Other than a few hundred AM stations that are still successful (and that number continues to drop), the lower frequencies are completely out of the American mainstream now.

I have an opinion as to why LF, and even SW are out of the American mainstream- but it's a political rant more suited for the Off The Air board than this one - along with a rant on FCC regulations board too. I wish I could name drop but I can't - but politics and money has a lot to do with it, and not the lack of it in the industry (no matter WHAT you're told..)that causes this thorn in my side.

The word "mainstream" quoted is the magic word here. People NEED to care about these things, yet I am afraid even if they DID, it wouldn't matter, because the powers that be in the FCC are paid off and it's more of a political and commercial enterprise than a "public service". The airwaves are supposed to be OURS- but they get sold off to the highest bidder. We don't hear what we want to hear over the air, we hear what they WANT us to hear (not a conspiracy theorist, just a grumpy young lady who's become quite disenchanted)

OK- rant over, I hope I haven't 'hijacked' the thread as the people say- cheers

 

[KeithE4]

I have an opinion as to why LF, and even SW are out of the American mainstream- but it's a political rant more suited for the Off The Air board than this one - along with a rant on FCC regulations board too. I wish I could name drop but I can't - but politics and money has a lot to do with it, and not the lack of it in the industry (no matter WHAT you're told..)that causes this thorn in my side.

LW broadcasting has never been in the American mainstream because it's never existed. Shortwave became pretty much a news-junkie/hobbyist niche after World War II. And once better ways of tuning into world events (cable news, the internet, etc.) became more prevalent, as well as FM replacing the "tropical band" SW stations in Latin America, shortwave died a slow death. Outside of the less-developed countries of Africa and Asia, there is no need for SW broadcasting anymore.

The word "mainstream" quoted is the magic word here. People NEED to care about these things, yet I am afraid even if they DID, it wouldn't matter, because the powers that be in the FCC are paid off and it's more of a political and commercial enterprise than a "public service". The airwaves are supposed to be OURS- but they get sold off to the highest bidder. We don't hear what we want to hear over the air, we hear what they WANT us to hear (not a conspiracy theorist, just a grumpy young lady who's become quite disenchanted)

Congress mandated that certain frequencies are to be sold or leased for big bucks back in the late '80s. They are our frequencies, but they are administered by the Federal Gummint (after all, it is our Gummint, at least in theory. ), and Congress has the authority to administer them (through the FCC) as they see fit.

OK- rant over, I hope I haven't 'hijacked' the thread as the people say- cheers

Nothing hijacked that I can see. This is a board that addresses government policies, and Congress, as well as the FCC, should be covered here.

 

[kinphoenix2]

I have an opinion as to why LF, and even SW are out of the American mainstream- but it's a political rant more suited for the Off The Air board than this one - along with a rant on FCC regulations board too. I wish I could name drop but I can't - but politics and money has a lot to do with it, and not the lack of it in the industry (no matter WHAT you're told..)that causes this thorn in my side.

LW broadcasting has never been in the American mainstream because it's never existed. Shortwave became pretty much a news-junkie/hobbyist niche after World War II. And once better ways of tuning into world events (cable news, the internet, etc.) became more prevalent, as well as FM replacing the "tropical band" SW stations in Latin America, shortwave died a slow death. Outside of the less-developed countries of Africa and Asia, there is no need for SW broadcasting anymore.

The word "mainstream" quoted is the magic word here. People NEED to care about these things, yet I am afraid even if they DID, it wouldn't matter, because the powers that be in the FCC are paid off and it's more of a political and commercial enterprise than a "public service". The airwaves are supposed to be OURS- but they get sold off to the highest bidder. We don't hear what we want to hear over the air, we hear what they WANT us to hear (not a conspiracy theorist, just a grumpy young lady who's become quite disenchanted)

Congress mandated that certain frequencies are to be sold or leased for big bucks back in the late '80s. They are our frequencies, but they are administered by the Federal Gummint (after all, it is our Gummint, at least in theory. ), and Congress has the authority to administer them (through the FCC) as they see fit.

OK- rant over, I hope I haven't 'hijacked' the thread as the people say- cheers

Nothing hijacked that I can see. This is a board that addresses government policies, and Congress, as well as the FCC, should be covered here.

well said- you cleared it up pretty good - BUT- I disagree on a couple things- although shortwave is extremely expensive to transmit, nothing good comes cheap. HF radio has it's merits! Number one- unlike the web, no one can know what you are hearing. Nothing to haunt someone during a time of national emergency, or background checks from an IP address or smart phone tracks etc.

Also, how do you get news or info or propaganda IN to a very closed country? What if our nation suddenly is dropped into an information "black hole" as Syria has recently, some other middle eastern type places, and DPRK does now? HF is the only way to go.
Our government uses it NOW for global comms. Web too risky, so are telephones. Why not put those waves that our govt uses for extremely important global communications for public use if they are so great? Why not?
I don't care for my local radio, and not everything IS on the internet contrary to what some people think. I hear some stories only on shortwave bcast stations I haven't heard a whiff of, online or on TV - even on the big stations like Radio Australia. Once it's over the air, it can't be "deleted" or have it's page pulled. One topic that may be taboo to say out loud here in N America might be conversation fodder in another country. Google has a way with making listings "disappear".

what I am saying is that shortwave is highly UNDER rated. I don't buy that it's just for some remote African village or the North Pole. It's under utilized, underappreciated I think- deliberately so. Anyone who thinks we have a "free media" is dreaming. Even our so called "alternative media" is rather controlled.

And I don't like how we Americans don't care what's going on with our airwaves being sold to giant corporations. If the public knew what laws were changed out of their favor on a regular basis, they'd probably be furious.
It's just wrong.
We make fun of other countries propaganda. What about ours? We're just a lot more sophisticated about it.

 

[1L6E6VHF]

3 GHz - 30GHz = SHF
30 GHz - 300 GHz = EHF
300 GHz - 3 THz (and upward) = ???

with no particular frequency boundaries:

Light frequency (includes infrared)
Ionizing electromagnetic radiation - includes:
Ultraviolet A
Ultraviolet B
Ultraviolet C
X-rays
Gamma rays
Cosmic rays.

 

[kenglish]

.........No, increasing amounts of poorly-regulated electrical noise from poorly-constructed and shielded electronic equipment did that. The only thing satellites and streaming did was make it irrelevant for domestic broadcasting.

That certainly hasn't helped, but if anyone cared, those devices would have been redesigned, fixed, or replaced decades ago. But AM has been on a downward spiral for 40 years, and shortwave hasn't been in the mind of most non-hobbyist American consumers since the '60s at the latest. World War II is over. So are the most of the old-time international broadcasters.

It doesn't matter anymore if electrical devices spew their garbage all over the place. Comparatively few people are listening to frequencies below 88 MHz. Other than a few hundred AM stations that are still successful (and that number continues to drop), the lower frequencies are completely out of the American mainstream now.
[/quote]

I think it DOES matter if electrical devices spew garbage. The interference isn't just limited to MW and FM bands. It may be more prevalent (and noticeable) at lower frequencies, but it's creeping up higher and higher. We are seeing interference problems all the way up to UHF, even now.
Unless we get a handle on the noise problems, we'll all be bidding for 700 MHz channels.
I think the broadcast community needs to start the push.