LOS ANGELES: WHY NO NCE ON VHF?

[Bob E. Nelson]

How did Los Angeles (unlike New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Boston, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Dallas and Houston -- to name a few other major markets of the 60's and 70's) end up with the non-commercial facility on UHF?

Unlike Washington (with only 4 VHF allotments due to its proximity to Baltimore), Los Angeles had the full VHF band at its disposal, as did New York. Was there ever a possibility that one of the smaller players (KCOP comes to mind) might have been getting pressured to make a prime VHF slot available for a NCE facility?

 

[fortmill]

Don't forget, New York, Philadelphia and Boston started out with no VHF TV NCE allocations. 13 in Newark-New York City was originally a commercial channel, WNTA. 12 in Philly was originally WDEL-TV in WIlmington DE. 35 was the first ETV in Philly. Raytheon originally had a commercial CP for 2 in Boston but donated it to educational TV before it was built. I believe here was a scheme back in the 60s for Metromedia to purchase or merge with 5, move their programing there and then sell 11 to KCET. I'm sure there were some other complicated conditions involved, but it never panned out. Remember there have been UHF NCE channels allocated to all those markets since 1952--locals just chose not to use them.

 

[LKellerIII]

How did Los Angeles (unlike New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Boston, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Dallas and Houston -- to name a few other major markets of the 60's and 70's) end up with the non-commercial facility on UHF?

Unlike Washington (with only 4 VHF allotments due to its proximity to Baltimore), Los Angeles had the full VHF band at its disposal, as did New York. Was there ever a possibility that one of the smaller players (KCOP comes to mind) might have been getting pressured to make a prime VHF slot available for a NCE facility?

As you kind of implied - in LA, all the local VHF frequencies had been licensed out for commercial stations by the early 1950s, possibly earlier; so no VHF frequencies were available. 2,4,5,7,9, 11 and 13 were all taken up by LA's 3 network O&Os and the 4 independent commercial stations. 3 was licensed to Santa Barbara; 6,8, and 10 to San Diego; and 12 to Tijuana, Mexico.

I recall that Channel 9's license was challenged during the early 60s. Found this online:

The saga began in 1962 when the license for KHJ-TV 9 Los Angeles was
challenged. During the FCC comparative hearings accusations of secret
contracts requiring General Tire retailers to advertise with RKO stations
in their market and not to reveal the connection were made. The RKO General
and General Tire executives who testified before the Federal Communications
Commission rejected the accusations and the license was renewed without any
direct documentary evidence of the offenses.

I have a vague memory of critics and citizen's groups publicizing this challenge and accusing KHJ-TV of being useless local television of no use to the public, along with the sentiment that the community would be better served if Channel 9 was a non-commercial station, not just another cartoon, old movie, and rerun factory.

But as it indicated above, the license was renewed and the controversy ended. It was all a done-deal by 1964 in any case, when KCET (NET - later PBS) was established on Channel 28. I recall that it was the reason my parents got cable. Where we lived, OTA reception was mediocre - even with a large rooftop antenna. Our 50s era TV had no UHF dial, and my father really wanted what he referred to as "educational television." The local cable company put KCET on Channel 8.

I'd be watching cartoons or The Beverly Hillbillies or something he considered equally "mind-rotting," so he'd come into the room, change the dial to KCET, and announce; "Watch some educational TV for a change." Used to drive me crazy.

http://www.oldradio.com/archives/prog/rko.pdf

 

[cwf1701]

and it was true in many markets. if you look at the VHF allocations around Detroit, 2,4, and 7 was allocated to Detroit. 11 and 13 was allocated to Toledo. 6 and 10 was allocated to the Lansing/Jackson Market. 5 and 12 was allocated to Flint. 9 was allocated to Windsor. 10 was allocated to London. 3, 5, and 8 was allocated to Cleveland. with the exception of Lansing 10 (which was a time-share station in the 1960s), all of the non com stations in and around Detroit went UHF.

 

[ercjncpr]

Don't forget, New York, Philadelphia and Boston started out with no VHF TV NCE allocations. 13 in Newark-New York City was originally a commercial channel, WNTA. 12 in Philly was originally WDEL-TV in WIlmington DE. 35 was the first ETV in Philly. Raytheon originally had a commercial CP for 2 in Boston but donated it to educational TV before it was built. I believe here was a scheme back in the 60s for Metromedia to purchase or merge with 5, move their programing there and then sell 11 to KCET. I'm sure there were some other complicated conditions involved, but it never panned out. Remember there have been UHF NCE channels allocated to all those markets since 1952--locals just chose not to use them.

I think that there was another similar idea for KCET to buy KTLA, but it cost too much.

 

[LKellerIII]

Don't forget, New York, Philadelphia and Boston started out with no VHF TV NCE allocations. 13 in Newark-New York City was originally a commercial channel, WNTA. 12 in Philly was originally WDEL-TV in WIlmington DE. 35 was the first ETV in Philly. Raytheon originally had a commercial CP for 2 in Boston but donated it to educational TV before it was built. I believe here was a scheme back in the 60s for Metromedia to purchase or merge with 5, move their programing there and then sell 11 to KCET. I'm sure there were some other complicated conditions involved, but it never panned out. Remember there have been UHF NCE channels allocated to all those markets since 1952--locals just chose not to use them.

I think that there was another similar idea for KCET to buy KTLA, but it cost too much.

Yes - KTLA would have probably been the most valuable of the LA indy stations. I recall that Gene Autry was criticized for paying "too much" for KTLA when he purchased the station in 1964. I wonder what KCOP could have been purchased for in those days - it wasn't much of a station.

 

[dave73]

Milwaukee almost didn't get an NCE license on the VHF, because the big broadcasters in the 50's, along with the mayor of Milwaukee at the time was fighting to keep WMVS off the air, so their channel could be re-allocated for commercial use. Milwaukee was allocated 4, 6, 10, & 12, with 10 being allocated NCE. 6 almost didn't get allocated for the Milwaukee market at all, & that would have made it even more desperate for the commercial broadcasters to keep WMVS from signing on. I forgot the reason channel 6 was originally not allocated for the Milwaukee market. When it did get allocated, it was meant for suburb Whitefish Bay, but was eventually changed to Milwaukee. WMVS (operated by the Milwaukee Area Technical College) eventually got a waiver to operate UHF station WMVT on 36 when 36 got set aside for NCE (back then, duopolies weren't allowed at all). Today, only WMVS is on the VHF (RF 8) while everyone else (except for low power WMLW-LD on RF 13) is on the UHF.

I forgot when the Kalamazoo/Grand Rapids market stations went on the air, but they were only allocated 3 VHF stations: 3 for Kalamazoo & 8 & 13 for Grand Rapids. So originally, that market was never given any VHF NCE stations. For DTV, Kalamazoo/Grand Rapids was given 2 more VHF stations to their market with NCE stations WGVU Grand Rapids going from 35 to 11, & simulcast WGVK Kalamazoo going from RF 52 to RF 5. Commercial stations WWMT Kalamazoo went from 3 (RF 2 for pre-transitional digital) to RF 8, while WOOD-TV Grand Rapids went from RF 8 to RF 7, & WZZM Grand Rapids had their pre-transitional digital on 46, but returned to 13. So now, the Kalamazoo/Grand Rapids market has both of their NCE stations on the VHF.

For Chicago, they were given 11 for NCE, but today, they're on the UHF on RF 47 with no NCE stations on the VHF. Indianapolis was allocated 4,6,8, & 13 with all 4 stations allocated for commercial use, but 4 was allocated for Bloomington, & their tower is located in Trafalgar (the closest any Bloomington stations could get to Indianapolis & provide Grade A coverage over Bloomington). Indianapolis was allocated 20 (Indianapolis), 30 (Bloomington), & 49 (Muncie) for NCE use.

 

[w9wi]

Milwaukee almost didn't get an NCE license on the VHF, because the big broadcasters in the 50's, along with the mayor of Milwaukee at the time was fighting to keep WMVS off the air, so their channel could be re-allocated for commercial use.

According to Dick Golenbiewski's book (and other information I've read), Mayor Zeidler fully supported WMVS. Indeed, he vetoed a number of Common Council actions that would have prevented WMVS from being built.

Commercial broadcasters -- especially WISN -- indeed opposed the non-commercial reservation on channel 10. That was hardly unique to Milwaukee. There were never enough VHF channels to go around; non-commercial VHF channels were an easy target.

6 almost didn't get allocated for the Milwaukee market at all, & that would have made it even more desperate for the commercial broadcasters to keep WMVS from signing on. I forgot the reason channel 6 was originally not allocated for the Milwaukee market. When it did get allocated, it was meant for suburb Whitefish Bay, but was eventually changed to Milwaukee.

Channel 6 was not initially allotted to Milwaukee.

Milwaukee is slightly too close to Davenport, Iowa, where WOC-TV (now KWQC) had been reallocated to channel 6. (they'd been on the air for four years on channel 5) Whitefish Bay is just far enough north of Milwaukee to be just far enough from Davenport for the FCC to allot channel 6.

It was also necessary to swap channels 5 and 6 between Green Bay and Marquette, Mich.. Of course, channel 6 could not co-exist in Whitefish Bay and Green Bay at the same time. (imagine the interference in Sheboygan!) Marquette's channel 5 was moved to Green Bay, and 6 from Green Bay to Marquette.

 

[RadioDaze]

In the Carolinas, we had the opposite happen as at least three markets ended up with NCE VHFs.

Charleston, SC had four VHF allotments (channels 2, 4, 5 and 7) with channel 7 being NCE WITV.

The combined Greenville-Washington-New Bern, NC market also had four VHF allotments (2, 7, 9 and 12--with a fifth, channel 8, dropped in at Morehead City in the 1980s) with channel 2 being NCE WUNB (later WUND), though in 2005, WUND's city of license moved from Columbia, NC across the Albemarle Sound to Edenton, NC, which put it in the Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News, VA-NC market (consequently giving that market five VHFs--2, 3, 4, 10 and 13--as well as a NCE VHF in the waning days of NTSC).

Of the three VHF allotments in the Raleigh-Durham, NC market (channels 4, 5 and 11), channel 4 became NCE WUNC-TV, the 10th NCE station in the country at its 1955 sign-on. This also of course meant that one of the big three networks would become the odd man out in the market (in this case, NBC).

In Charlotte, at least RF-wise, they now have a NCE VHF, since WTVI's digital signal is on channel 11 (I believe the only VHF now in Charlotte).

 

[dave73]

It was also necessary to swap channels 5 and 6 between Green Bay and Marquette, Mich.. Of course, channel 6 could not co-exist in Whitefish Bay and Green Bay at the same time. (imagine the interference in Sheboygan!) Marquette's channel 5 was moved to Green Bay, and 6 from Green Bay to Marquette.

Some people in Walworth County Wisconsin & Kane, Boone, & McHenry Counties of Illinois already experience some interference with WMTV & WGN-TV on RF 19. Parts of far SW Michigan also get interference with WGN-TV & WXMI Grand Rapids (also on RF 19). I'm sure people in Racine & Kenosha Counties of Wisconsin also get interference from WXMI when it crosses over the lake, interfering with WGN-TV. Since WLS-TV still broadcasts a signal on RF 7, some people get interference in parts of the Chicago market (mainly those close enough to Lake Michigan) getting WOOD-TV over WLS-TV. Just like on the Michigan side, since WWMT took over WOOD-TV's old channel (RF 8 ) (spaced out intentionally, or it would display one of the smileys instead of the number eight), some people in Michigan get WMVS instead of WWMT. If their antenna is on a rotator, they can sometimes null out WMVS. If it's on one of the antenna setups where WZZM is on an antenna pointed north, VHF-Hi antenna for WGVU & UHF antenna for WTLJ in another direction, & a general VHF/UHF antenna pointed at the remaining Kalamazoo/Grand Rapids stations, then it's not sure which channel 8 (RF 8 & not virtual channel 8 ) to actually pickup & decode.

 

[radiorob2.0]

Of the three VHF allotments in the Raleigh-Durham, NC market (channels 4, 5 and 11), channel 4 became NCE WUNC-TV, the 10th NCE station in the country at its 1955 sign-on. This also of course meant that one of the big three networks would become the odd man out in the market (in this case, NBC).

Channel 4 was originally a commercial allocation. Jefferson Standard (later Jefferson-Pilot) received the allocation. For some reason, the company decided not to start the station and donated everything to UNC and the allocation changed to NCE.

Louisville, KY had an original VHF NCE for Channel 7 but during the frequency swaps of the time that allocation was moved to Evansville, Indiana. As mentioned in another thread another allocation from the reallocation was Channel 9 for Hatfield, Indiana (Evansville) that was originally commercial then changed to non-commercial.

Another interesting non-commercial VHF was Sneedville, Tennessee. After they rearranged allocations the FCC found a Channel 2 could be placed in East Tennessee. However, due to the location it could not serve Knoxville, the Tri-Cities or Asheville. If you moved the transmitter location in any direction it would affect other Channel 2's or 3's. So it was decided to allocate Channel 2 as non-commercial to serve East Tennessee.

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

Looking at another aspect of NCE facilities and VHF, the two channels swaps that I recall were:

Nashville: WSIX (WNGE->WKRN) traded with WDCN (WNPT). Since I was working over on the radio side at the time, GE thought that low-band channel 2, occupied by the NCE, would be a better facility than high-band 8 and also place the channel a few clicks closer to 4 and 5. The change was done during Marcus Welby to much fanfare but it never achieved the expected results with WNGE remaining mired in third place (where it still remains) behind WLAC-TV (5) and WSM-TV (4). I can understand the reason since channel 2 was considered prime real estate back then for a television facility.

...which brings us to...

New Orleans: WVUE and WYES traded places with the NCE moving from 8 to 12. Was there any difference between those two high-VHF facilities that WVUE gained in the swap?

 

[azumanga]

Nashville: WSIX (WNGE->WKRN) traded with WDCN (WNPT)... The change was done during Marcus Welby to much fanfare but it never achieved the expected results with WNGE remaining mired in third place...

...which brings us to...

New Orleans: WVUE and WYES traded places with the NCE moving from 8 to 12.

I read somewhere that the New Orleans swap was also done with great fanfare in 1970, during a movie (I was thinking "Midway", but it couldn't be, as that film was released in theaters in 1976).

 

[ShawnHill1]

El Paso was another market whose ABC and PBS also swapped channel positions...KVIA (ABC) switched from channel 13 to 7, and KCOS going from 7 to 13 in 1981.

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

El Paso was another market whose ABC and PBS also swapped channel positions...KVIA (ABC) switched from channel 13 to 7, and KCOS going from 7 to 13 in 1981.

I suppose that was done to put KVIA (the old KELP-TV) in the middle of the other major stations 4-7-9. Or was 7 actually a better facility than 13?

Also in Texas, there was some talk (and that's all it ever was) about then Fox O&O KDAF on 33 swapping with North Texas Public Broadcasting's KDTN on 2. This was in the early 90's, shortly after KDTN lit up, giving D/FW two VHF NCEs. I don't think any amount of money would have persuaded the FCC to allow a NCE on VHF to "downgrade" to UHF.

I seem to recall something similar was talked about with Tampa's WEDU on 3 trading with another facility in the market back in the 80's. I think it may have been with one of the Us (WTOG?), but that's at best second hand and my memory may be very wrong.

 

[radiorob2.0]

El Paso was another market whose ABC and PBS also swapped channel positions...KVIA (ABC) switched from channel 13 to 7, and KCOS going from 7 to 13 in 1981.

I seem to recall something similar was talked about with Tampa's WEDU on 3 trading with another facility in the market back in the 80's. I think it may have been with one of the Us (WTOG?), but that's at best second hand and my memory may be very wrong.

I recall the same story, the station wanting to swap was the old WSUN-TV Channel 38. They were the first station in the area but the VHF's signed on the air including a drop in that took their ABC affiliation. The deal never materialized and WSUN-TV eventually shuttered.

I had also heard Holston Valley Broadcasting, owner of WKPT-TV 19 Kingsport had approached the state about swapping frequencies with WSJK Channel 2. That deal didn't happen. Down the road in Knoxville WTVK moved from Channel 26 to new allocation for Channel 8 in the late eighties.

 

[azumanga]

I seem to recall something similar was talked about with Tampa's WEDU on 3 trading with another facility in the market back in the 80's. I think it may have been with one of the Us (WTOG?), but that's at best second hand and my memory may be very wrong.

I recall the same story, the station wanting to swap was the old WSUN-TV Channel 38. They were the first station in the area but the VHF's signed on the air including a drop in that took their ABC affiliation. The deal never materialized and WSUN-TV eventually shuttered.

In the mid-1980s, a deal between WEDU and WTOG was approved by the FCC, which would give WTOG, already a strong regional superstation at the time, a strong VHF while WEDU sufficiently covers Tampa Bay on UHF (both, then and now, broadcast from Riverview); however, for some reason, the swap never happened.

 

[w9wi]

I seem to recall something similar was talked about with Tampa's WEDU on 3 trading with another facility in the market back in the 80's. I think it may have been with one of the Us (WTOG?), but that's at best second hand and my memory may be very wrong.

I recall the same story, the station wanting to swap was the old WSUN-TV Channel 38. They were the first station in the area but the VHF's signed on the air including a drop in that took their ABC affiliation. The deal never materialized and WSUN-TV eventually shuttered.

(hope I've got the quotes attributed properly...)

WSUN-TV was gone by 1970. Their Wikipedia page says they did try a swap with WEDU in the 1950s, which was obviously denied.

WTOG *also* tried a swap with WEDU. WTOG came into being in 1968 -- the 1980s proposed swap was WTOG's.