Lotus

[fybush]

What school district these days doesn't have outbound texting to parents to notify about closures and delays?

On the rare occasions when my kids' school has closed, I get a text many hours before it would show up on the radio.

(And we stopped reading closures on WXXI years ago. The commercial TV stations still run them, but I think it's more to have something advertisers can sponsor. Their crawls are usually very out of date, still listing "afternoon activities cancelled" long after those activities would have ended anyway.)

 

[davideduardo]

What about people who listen on headphones? The PPM seems extremely narrow in scope to be honest. Why isn't there a better more obvious way? No need to answer that as it is rhetorical in general.

Nielsen has an algorithm that compensates for headphone use of audio. It is based on actual listener behaviour monitoring to create a model for different age groups, ethnicities and the like relative to earbud / headphone listening.

I've never met anyone who had a PPM meter. No one I know has ever met anyone either that wore one. But like I said, another topic for another day. I appreciate the feedback and I'll leave it alone now!

In LA, there are 4,000 meters. The maximum length of usage is 24 months, but the average is less as some dwelling units drop out and others are removed for failure to comply.

That means that out of about 10,000,000 people over age 6 in LA, in the last 15 years of PPM usage, there have been 90,000 metered persons. Do the math: it's really unlikely that you would know anyone with a meter... particularly when those with them are told not to talk about it!

 

[davideduardo]

Nobody listens to radio by holding their phone up to their ears. It's all earbuds. I see them each week at football games, watching the game but listening to the local play by play through their Apple earbuds. None of that gets counted by PPM.

Actually, it does. They use a supplementary algorithm to project earbud listening based on an in-depth survey that creates the base.

I can give you more examples. The numbers on Nielsen don't reflect a lot of digital listening.

If a station's stream is encoded, then it is measured.

But radio stations get the data from their providers and know it's big.

But that data is not stratified like the PPM data is, with specific age, gender, ethnicity, language, income, education stratifications.

 

[Kelly A]

Nobody listens to radio by holding their phone up to their ears. It's all earbuds. I see them each week at football games, watching the game but listening to the local play by play through their Apple earbuds. None of that gets counted by PPM. I can give you more examples. The numbers on Nielsen don't reflect a lot of digital listening. But radio stations get the data from their providers and know it's big.

But honestly, what's the likely number of Nielsen panelists that insist on wearing headphones or earbuds vs. those who are listening via their phone from AppleCarplay and alike specifically to radio, let alone OTA radio? My bet is headphone wearers are a tiny percentage in the scheme of things.

 

[davideduardo]

But honestly, what's the likely number of Nielsen panelists that insist on wearing headphones or earbuds vs. those who are listening via their phone from AppleCarplay and alike specifically to radio, let alone OTA radio? My bet is headphone wearers are a tiny percentage in the scheme of things.

A lot of the non-car listening is on earbuds. And non-car listening is still the majority of AQH listening in Nielsen.

 

[Kelly A]

A lot of the non-car listening is on earbuds. And non-car listening is still the majority of AQH listening in Nielsen.

Then how is that accurately measured if the PPM can't hear the watermark?

 

[TheBigA]

But honestly, what's the likely number of Nielsen panelists that insist on wearing headphones or earbuds vs. those who are listening via their phone from AppleCarplay and alike specifically to radio, let alone OTA radio? My bet is headphone wearers are a tiny percentage in the scheme of things.

Pierre Brevard has done a very detailed analysis on this. You should read his article. It's not as small as you think.

As I said, radio stations know the traffic they get at their sites, they know how many people listen via apps and online listening, and it's becoming a significant number. As the number of traditional radios continue to drop, the shift will become more apparent.

Then how is that accurately measured if the PPM can't hear the watermark?

It's not. That's my point. Nielsen has to address this.

 

[TheBigA]

Actually, it does. They use a supplementary algorithm to project earbud listening based on an in-depth survey that creates the base.

It's what we call a guestimate. It's not real numbers. We get real numbers from the usage of the streaming apps.

But that data is not stratified like the PPM data is, with specific age, gender, ethnicity, language, income, education stratifications.

You're right, but it's the best we have for now.

 

[Kelly A]

Pierre Brevard has done a very detailed analysis on this. You should read his article. It's not as small as you think.

As I said, radio stations know the traffic they get at their sites, they know how many people listen via apps and online listening, and it's becoming a significant number. As the number of traditional radios continue to drop, the shift will become more apparent.

But scoring streaming via standard Internet analytics isn't PPM, which is what the question was about. I can get that analytical data via my streaming provider as part of my contract, earbuds or no. None of those numbers are included in Nielsen data.

 

[davideduardo]

Then how is that accurately measured if the PPM can't hear the watermark?

Still much of the in-home and at-work listening is on traditional radios. In-car is a short interval. The fixed locations are much longer time spans and thus are a bigger part of AQH listening. In-car wins in cume, just not in AQH.

 

[TheBigA]

But scoring streaming via standard Internet analytics isn't PPM, which is what the question was about. I can get that analytical data via my streaming provider as part of my contract, earbuds or no. None of those numbers are included in Nielsen data.

Not my problem

We pay royalties based on actual listening, not demographics. So we need to be able to sell those numbers. I don't care who I get them from. It's Nielsen's problem to fix. Of course, they'll just make excuses.

 

[Kelly A]

Still much of the in-home and at-work listening is on traditional radios.

You mean streaming radio stations via the Internet as it relates to earbuds, not traditional OTA listening. As mentioned, in that case, one doesn't need Nielsen data.

In-car is a short interval. The fixed locations are much longer time spans and thus are a bigger part of AQH listening. In-car wins in cume, just not in AQH.

So that means you're admitting that a potentially large portion of non-in-car listening may be unmeasurable by PPM?

 

[Kelly A]

Not my problem

I never said it was.

We pay royalties based on actual listening, not demographics.

I never mentioned demographics as it relates to headphone or earbud listening. The discussion was about earbud and headphone listening as it relates to PPM measurement.

So we need to be able to sell those numbers. I don't care who I get them from. It's Nielsen's problem to fix. Of course, they'll just make excuses.

More like make-up assumptions.

 

[davideduardo]

It's not. That's my point. Nielsen has to address this.

It's addressed with an algorithm based on an in-depth study of habits. They essentially use "factors" based on actual earbuds vs. speaker listening in different types (age, ethnicity, gender, education, income) of dwelling units (PPM is sampled based on dwelling units, not individual persons) to project earbud listening.

And about 250 of the Nielsen markets use diaries, not the PPM.

 

[davideduardo]

You mean streaming radio stations via the Internet as it relates to earbuds, not traditional OTA listening. As mentioned, in that case, one doesn't need Nielsen data.

Yes, the agencies do. Streaming has limited or inaccurate demographic data. Sheer numbers, yes. Age, gender, ethnicity, income, education and the other things Nielsen provides that advertisers need, not.

So that means you're admitting that a potentially large portion of non-in-car listening may be unmeasurable by PPM?

As I said, it is measured. In the PPM by means of an algorithm. In the diary, by actual listener registering of listening. Both are considered adequate by advertisers.

 

[Kelly A]

And about 250 of the Nielsen markets use diaries, not the PPM.

But the original question was about PPM-markets/data harvesting.

 

[davideduardo]

But the original question was about PPM-markets/data harvesting.

And that leaves out a lot of America. Add in the fact that Nielsen does have a statistical solution for earbud listening.

Nielsen bases a great deal of the underlying market data on its own adjunct research, both by Nielsen radio or other Nielsen entities. And example is the annual update of language dominance by market by Hispanics. That is an internal calculation.

In fact, the Nielsen population data for 6+ and 12+ and by age cell is not pure Census data; it comes from a company that combines Census and the Census Bureau's annual "survey" (a random probability sample just like the ratings!) with other data based on things like retail sales and other economic measures. This is what advertisers want and that is what Nielsen gives them.

 

[TheBigA]

It's addressed with an algorithm based on an in-depth study of habits.

That's what Nielsen says. We have other data and it gets presented to advertisers as part of a package.

The usage data doesn't lie. Yes it doesn't include demos, but the numbers are sellable.

Radio CAN'T live on Nielsen. Radio can't live on air signal alone.

 

[davideduardo]

That's what Nielsen says.

I've actually seen the work, and the methodology is sounnd.

We have other data and it gets presented to advertisers as part of a package.

But advertisers have the choice to ignore data that is not specific enough. In this case, unless it is quantifiable in the advertiser's target demo, it is useless.

The usage data doesn't lie. Yes it doesn't include demos, but the numbers are sellable.

They are very close to puffery as they do not attach the numbers to an advertiser's target demo profile.

Radio CAN'T live on Nielsen. Radio can't live on air signal alone.

Nielsen is working to make its services have two divisions: audio and video. That means anything without a picture, whether streams, podcasts or "radio" will be in one, and traditional TV, on-demand and streams will be in another. As such, one can create campaigns for "all audio" where the non-sponsorable services are broken out for comparison.

Radio is not trying to live on "air signals" alone. It is trying to live on "audio" alone. Encoded station streams have appeared in Nielsen radio reports for some years now.

 

[TheBigA]

I've actually seen the work, and the methodology is sounnd.

Believe what you want to believe. There are listeners who are not getting counted, and that costs us money.