My station is in a tricky situation when it comes to processing. We are in a small market, but we're also near a large market. We have two competing local stations, but our only format (music) competition comes from the large market. The other local stations process for cleanliness, while the large market processes more for loudness. As a PD, I would love to crank up our processor and make the other local guys look like they're in the minor leagues. But I also worry in the back of my mind that listeners may not like it. In my situation, what would you do? Go for loudness like the big boys, or go for cleanliness like the other local stations? I want as many personal opinions and thoughts as I can get, so please let me know whatever you think!! ;D
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Loud or Clean: What do you think?
- Thread starter whit979
- Start date
whit979 said:
Oh the $64,000 question!
What's your motivation for doing this? Do you feel the louder signals are attracting more listeners? Also, are these other signals considerably louder? Being clean, and close to those big-boyz is not a bad option either.
All that being said...you can do always play a bit, and if you don't like the changes, return to the original setup. But, make sure to note where your processing settings are if you have to restore them, as well as having a reference.
No reason it has to be one or the other either: loud or clean. See what hapens if you 'nudge' the processing ahead a little bit. This could be done by driving the dynamics sections (compressors/limiters) a few dB more...or...push the clipping a bit. If you consider the latter, I'd try bumping it in 0.5dB steps. That's a subtle change and worth the time to listen to over long periods of time.
I do not recommend doing both, pushing the compression and clipping, at the same time. Why? Because, independent if it sounds better or worse, you will not know which function made the change that's of benefit or bad guy.
Also, if making a change compare this to the original as well as other signals.
-Frank Foti
Listen to FF...although he and I disagree on some technical stuff, he's on the mark. But there's one question I would need to know first before giving advice. Is your station AM or FM? What processor?
If it's AM, go for broke and let it crank loud as you decently and legally can without fatigue to cover the noise floor. If you can, find a KAHN sideband modulator. They'll make you loud as hell.
If your signal is FM, no matter what, I'd go for clean first, then follow FF's directions exactly. Map your starting point levels, so you can always undo. Small steps, listen for 24 hours before changing again, especially EQ.
If it's AM, go for broke and let it crank loud as you decently and legally can without fatigue to cover the noise floor. If you can, find a KAHN sideband modulator. They'll make you loud as hell.
If your signal is FM, no matter what, I'd go for clean first, then follow FF's directions exactly. Map your starting point levels, so you can always undo. Small steps, listen for 24 hours before changing again, especially EQ.
M
menotti1
Guest
Frank is having coffee and donuts now.let me chime in.truth is it'a more about programming and content that being alittle louder than the competition.a good loud but CLEAN will give you better TSL.with the omnia 6 i run the warmcomtemp setting and it pretty well does both loud and OOOOOH so clean with great clarity.always remember ,car radio's have that volume control so a listener can choose the amout of LOUD they want..
menotti1 said:
True, but do you think there's a certain attraction to a station that is louder than another one? I've studied our setup extensively, and I can be clean and sound great. I can also be louder than everybody and sound decent. The question to me: does being loud have more benefits than negatives in my situation?
whit979 said:
Back from the Iced-T and donuts!
More serious question regarding the louder guys...Is everyone playing by the same modulation level? If so, then your desires can be addressed with processing. If not, then it's not a fair competition.
As to your question about how much will you gain? There's no concrete scientific answer. It's subjective. When you listen to these louder signals, are they easy to listen to, or are they 'packed' up and tough to listen to for long periods of time? This matters. Then, if you boost your processing, can you still listen to it.
In the end what matters more to you, as the PD: That initial impact that is heard when you do the A/B punch between your station and another, quality, or a combination of both?
When I would consult radio stations, I always sat down with the PD, and asked the question, what is the goal of our efforts? Keep it simple. While I know that everyone would like to be the LOUDEST-N-CLEANEST, sadly there's no free lunch. (Wish there were!) Give thought to your gut desires, and then take it from there...
-Frank Foti
M
menotti1
Guest
TRUTH is most of those loud ones are over modulating(nothing new there).The inovonics mod monitor can tell you alot about your competition.with that being said i'll take some loud BUT clean over dense balls to the wall anyday.WOMEN love that clean sound...you never mentioned what your format or demo's.
M
menotti1
Guest
Now we're talking...my suggestion is leave it alone.just work on delivering a good product, the rest will take care of itself.best to you....
There are many ways to be loud. You can do it "brute force" (and give up a lot of "clean-ness"), or you can be creative with it.
As someone said before, you don't have to go for one OR the other.
I like being clean, but APPEAR to be loud with the creative use of dynamics. To go this route, you should do with Frank said to do, but do it on a larger scale...play with one section of the processing at a time, note what effect it has on the audio as you adjust. After a while, you'll begin to have a feel for what you want to use to get the desired effect you're looking for.
Always remember to compare what you are doing with your program source (THIS tells you a LOT about what you're doing), and don't spend all day fiddling. Only spend at the most about 20 minutes at a time listening and tweaking...then go away and do something totally unrelated for an hour or so. Come back, and see if the effect still sounds the way you THINK it does.
Ear fatigue is a big enemy of the person doing the tweaking. Just think what happens when you've been in your car listening to a CD for more than 30 minutes. What's the one thing that happens when you return to your car, turn on the ignition? Typically you get blown out of your seat til you turn the CD down.
Funny how it didn't seem so loud when you left the car, eh? That's one aspect of ear fatigue!
Good luck!
-Cornelius
As someone said before, you don't have to go for one OR the other.
I like being clean, but APPEAR to be loud with the creative use of dynamics. To go this route, you should do with Frank said to do, but do it on a larger scale...play with one section of the processing at a time, note what effect it has on the audio as you adjust. After a while, you'll begin to have a feel for what you want to use to get the desired effect you're looking for.
Always remember to compare what you are doing with your program source (THIS tells you a LOT about what you're doing), and don't spend all day fiddling. Only spend at the most about 20 minutes at a time listening and tweaking...then go away and do something totally unrelated for an hour or so. Come back, and see if the effect still sounds the way you THINK it does.
Ear fatigue is a big enemy of the person doing the tweaking. Just think what happens when you've been in your car listening to a CD for more than 30 minutes. What's the one thing that happens when you return to your car, turn on the ignition? Typically you get blown out of your seat til you turn the CD down.
Funny how it didn't seem so loud when you left the car, eh? That's one aspect of ear fatigue!
Good luck!
-Cornelius
Listen to the guys here. I would go for a clean, somewhat competitive but not over the top... yet balanced sound and delivery of good content. If the guys locally are processing for clean, I would try to be just a notch or two above them, even if you are still a notch or two below the major metro. I assume you are using a digital box?
Usually in major metros, everyone is pushing the envelope. Do you really want to get involved? What is your terrain like? If you start pushing alot of clipping in hilly terrain you're going to be sorry. Also, because you are local in your area and the metro isn't, you will probably be preceived as being louder. How far away are these other stations? 20 miles, 30 miles?
Usually in major metros, everyone is pushing the envelope. Do you really want to get involved? What is your terrain like? If you start pushing alot of clipping in hilly terrain you're going to be sorry. Also, because you are local in your area and the metro isn't, you will probably be preceived as being louder. How far away are these other stations? 20 miles, 30 miles?
Thanks for the suggestions. wgli: to answer you questions: Yes, we are using one of the popular digital boxes (although I don't want to reveal what we're using). Our terrain is very hilly...could you elaborate more about processing in the hills? The large market is 60 miles away. Local stations average 3,000 - 6,000 watts (only around 550 watts ERP because we all have our xmtr's on mountains). Large markets are all at 100,000 watts. That's where it seems like we run into the loudness issue. If we're pretty loud, we'll reach the fringe areas better. If we process for clean, we pretty much just try to impress the people within our city.
C
CW
Guest
FFoti1 said:whit979 said:
Oh the $64,000 question!
What's your motivation for doing this? Do you feel the louder signals are attracting more listeners? Also, are these other signals considerably louder? Being clean, and close to those big-boyz is not a bad option either.
All that being said...you can do always play a bit, and if you don't like the changes, return to the original setup. But, make sure to note where your processing settings are if you have to restore them, as well as having a reference.
No reason it has to be one or the other either: loud or clean. See what hapens if you 'nudge' the processing ahead a little bit. This could be done by driving the dynamics sections (compressors/limiters) a few dB more...or...push the clipping a bit. If you consider the latter, I'd try bumping it in 0.5dB steps. That's a subtle change and worth the time to listen to over long periods of time.
I do not recommend doing both, pushing the compression and clipping, at the same time. Why? Because, independent if it sounds better or worse, you will not know which function made the change that's of benefit or bad guy.
Also, if making a change compare this to the original as well as other signals.
-Frank Foti
Whit,
As Frank has said, it it not a problem to have BOTH loudness and clean audio.....trust me, you WANT both!!.....one station in SE Texas, owned by CC, KCOL-FM, has its processing so cranked up, it sounds like an AM station (the reverb in the program chain needs to go too!)....clipped and its loud but yet if they play the same song as KHTC or other similar formats out of Houston, those stations sounds MUCH better than KCOL...just because they are loud BUT clean.....(believe me, its that bad!) Streo sep on the Houston stations is better; this being said listening to both under similar signal conditions; distance, etc)....KZPS in Dallas a number of years ago also sounded clean and loud.....loved the audio quality on there (but it changed since that engineer was let go when CC took over and then they changed transmitters...)....playing with the processing will get you both results....just dont overdo it
Good luck..whit979 said:
Hilly terrain introduces multipath even with clean processing. The more clipping and composite clipping you add to increase loudness, the more multipath issues will be aggrivated. It doesn't matter what processor you are using, multipath will still become and issue if you increase clipping. This may actually work against you... processing loud is probably not going to do too much if anything to your fringe, but it may actually damage local coverage if the immediate area is hilly. This is why you have to be very careful if you are going to increase loudness... or use any sort of stereo enhancement.
It's nice to be king of the hill, but there are many things to be taken into consideration before you turn it up. Do you think by doing this you are going to actually attract more listeners? That is the ultimate call.
A
al_atl
Guest
Whit,
I noticed recently that WSTR has backed off that midrange. They still don't sound as good to me as they did a few years ago, but it's listenable now. Have you heard them lately? What do you think?
I noticed recently that WSTR has backed off that midrange. They still don't sound as good to me as they did a few years ago, but it's listenable now. Have you heard them lately? What do you think?
al_atl said:
Good to hear from ya!! How is everything over in ATL? I remember back a few months ago when that midrange had gotten terrible on Star. I remember at one point their processing had gotten so squashed that it was just a brick wall of sound. I assumed they were trying to sound louder than Q100 or something but that was really awful. I actually took a trip over to Douglasville this week and listened to Star the whole way. There's still a little bit of midrange but it's light years better than what it was. I still think Q100 sounds better.
Hope to hear from ya again soon!Whit - you are @ WVOK, right?
I heard the station last week on my way through to 'Dega - don't change a thing! It's clean, bright and compares favorably to other signals. Honestly, the fact that you did not sound like every other smashed-flat station was the reason I stopped my scan on you.
I'm looking at your coverage on V-Soft's propagation software, and looks like you nicely cover the main areas of Anniston and Oxford. Now I was literally underneath your tower while listening, so my car radio had a fully-saturated demod section. Be careful in comparing stations, as different car radios react differently as the received signal drops. Most all start blending to mono at pretty high levels. Multipath (or the lack of it) will change perceived loudness. Also, most if not all car radios start reducing the audio level - even if a small amount - as received signal drops down to where noise might enter.
It probably comes as no surprise that you have some big mountain-created nulls in your signal to the west. My point is that if you are headed over to listen to the BHM signals, by the time you get past the Coosa River -- or at least to Pell City -- the Red Mountain sticks already are putting more signal into your car radio, thus you are at a disadvantage in making a direct comparison.
Others can say it better than me, but I agree with the previous posts: are you sure you want to harm your nice-sounding signal in the primary listening areas in order to improve loudness in the fringe?
If you want something to work on, tell the Cajun restaurant in Oxford that you don't put red beans in jambalaya.
I heard the station last week on my way through to 'Dega - don't change a thing! It's clean, bright and compares favorably to other signals. Honestly, the fact that you did not sound like every other smashed-flat station was the reason I stopped my scan on you.
I'm looking at your coverage on V-Soft's propagation software, and looks like you nicely cover the main areas of Anniston and Oxford. Now I was literally underneath your tower while listening, so my car radio had a fully-saturated demod section. Be careful in comparing stations, as different car radios react differently as the received signal drops. Most all start blending to mono at pretty high levels. Multipath (or the lack of it) will change perceived loudness. Also, most if not all car radios start reducing the audio level - even if a small amount - as received signal drops down to where noise might enter.
It probably comes as no surprise that you have some big mountain-created nulls in your signal to the west. My point is that if you are headed over to listen to the BHM signals, by the time you get past the Coosa River -- or at least to Pell City -- the Red Mountain sticks already are putting more signal into your car radio, thus you are at a disadvantage in making a direct comparison.
Others can say it better than me, but I agree with the previous posts: are you sure you want to harm your nice-sounding signal in the primary listening areas in order to improve loudness in the fringe?
If you want something to work on, tell the Cajun restaurant in Oxford that you don't put red beans in jambalaya.
good advice DR Tech.open and bright is the way to go today.it is amazing how good a digital box can sound if set up right.But some tweakers seem to go for the balls to the wall processing,2db of clipping plus overmodulation.Just awful what it does to the processing.and red beans in jambalaya???sure can tell they're not from Louisiana..take care.
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