Macklemore & Ryan Lewis - "Thrift Store" - Alternative, really?!?!?

[justpassingthough]

If the argument is that hip hop doesn't fit the format because it's not "rock" enough, then Beastie Boys, Everlast, or Beck have no business being on alternative playlists. Nor, I would argue, do Skrillex, DeadMau5 or any other EDM artist. I think they are as far away from the traditional "rock" format as any hip hop artist.

Sorry, not convinced. Alternative is inherently a racist whitewashed format.

My $00.02.

I don't think its fair to say that alternative = whitewashed. I think its a convenient way to dismiss the format. What is lost in this argument is that somewhere along the way, alternative became modern rock, rather than an alternative to the mainstream. Reggae, etc is just one example of what isn't pure rock but is an alternative form of music.

 

[MarcR]

It's interesting that noboby has mentioned Frank Ocean as the sort of R&B artist that could fit in well with an Alternative music format. There is even a video of him covering "Fake Plastic Trees" by Radiohead, a core Alternative artist. And if you include his interesting love life, he's definitely somebody who belongs on an Alt formatted station. Incidentally, back in the '80s Alternative stations did play hip hop artists like De La Soul and Public Enemy and R&B artists like Prince and Ziggy Marley, so it's not exactly unchartered territory for the format.

 

[awp69]

Ouch. Started quite a little argument here. I agree with justpassingthrough that Alternative in its purist form should not just be "modern rock". Bands like Wilco, which I personally think should still be played on alternative stations, are more country. Of Monsters & Men are more folk. M83 is more electronic. And, yes, the Beastie Boys are rap. But they all fall under the Alternative umbrella and I don't think race has anything to do with it.

As I mentioned before, bands like the Wu Tang Clan (yes, a black group) were alternative. And in the early days of alternative, reggae was played.

Although justpassingthrough disagrees with me, I just think "Thrift Store" sounds too mainstream hip-hop to me. Yet I still agree with his general argument that alternative is not an exclusive club for white folks. Not many white artists on Urban stations. Not many black folks on country stations. But there are exceptions (Darius Rucker has had huge success in country).

To say that any one format is racist in this day and age is stupid. It's all about the sound. The music that belongs in that format. And anyone who disagrees is living in the '50s.

The start of this thread had NOTHING to do with race. Just the merits of the song itself and thoughts on whether or not people personally thought it belonged on alt stations.

 

[atlantaboy]

Sorry to bring up the elephant in the room, but race has a HUGE part in whether the Alternative format will play rap artists - you're talking about a demographic which is 99% white

If "Airplanes" by B. O. B. had been performed by a white artist, for example, I can almost guarantee it would have charted on Alternative - and if "Lose Yourself" had been performed by a black artist, I can almost guarantee that Alternative wouldn't have touched it

"Numb" is primarily a Linkin Park song, not a Jay-Z song - and, again, sorry to keep bring this up, but if "Numb/Encore" had been performed by Jay-Z WITHOUT Linkin Park, no Alternative station wouldn't have touched it

If you guys can find one example of a black rapper who charted on Alternative (with a rap track - IMO Hey Ya doesn't count), I'll be extremely surprised...

THIS guy gets it.

I think thats an oversimplified explanation. Yes, alternative doesn't play a lot or any black rappers on a consistent basis, because thats simply not the format. Hip hop belongs on urban, rhythmic and CHR stations, period. As the remainder of the thread pointed out, though, there are certain songs that break through that are appropriate for alternative- regardless of race of the artist.

Just Passing Through -

Try this link, and see if you can find any black rappers that have EVER charted on Alternative - I can't find any - not even one (and neither Wu-Tung Clan, De La Soul, nor Public Enemy ever charted on Alternative, and that database goes back into the 80s)

http://www.popradiotop20.com/Modern-Rock/index.htm

Sorry, but it seems like you're sugarcoating the truth

 

[MarcR]

Sorry to bring up the elephant in the room, but race has a HUGE part in whether the Alternative format will play rap artists - you're talking about a demographic which is 99% white

If "Airplanes" by B. O. B. had been performed by a white artist, for example, I can almost guarantee it would have charted on Alternative - and if "Lose Yourself" had been performed by a black artist, I can almost guarantee that Alternative wouldn't have touched it

"Numb" is primarily a Linkin Park song, not a Jay-Z song - and, again, sorry to keep bring this up, but if "Numb/Encore" had been performed by Jay-Z WITHOUT Linkin Park, no Alternative station wouldn't have touched it

If you guys can find one example of a black rapper who charted on Alternative (with a rap track - IMO Hey Ya doesn't count), I'll be extremely surprised...

THIS guy gets it.

I think thats an oversimplified explanation. Yes, alternative doesn't play a lot or any black rappers on a consistent basis, because thats simply not the format. Hip hop belongs on urban, rhythmic and CHR stations, period. As the remainder of the thread pointed out, though, there are certain songs that break through that are appropriate for alternative- regardless of race of the artist.

Just Passing Through -

Try this link, and see if you can find any black rappers that have EVER charted on Alternative - I can't find any - not even one (and, no, Wu-Tung Clan never charted on Alternative either)

http://www.popradiotop20.com/Modern-Rock/index.htm

Sorry, but it seems like you're sugarcoating the truth

I thin the problem with Hip Hop is that the gangsta rappers prevailed over other subtypes of the genre and that they didn't really fit in with the format.

 

[MarcR]

And rappers like De La Soul and Public Enemy did garner airplay on WLIR/WDRE back in the day. I'm 42 and I remember hearing them on the station quite well.

 

[awp69]

And rappers like De La Soul and Public Enemy did garner airplay on WLIR/WDRE back in the day. I'm 42 and I remember hearing them on the station quite well.

I also remember De La Soul and Wu Tang Clan getting airplay on 99X in Atlanta. But guess it must not have been a widespread alternative thing. Nonetheless, I still don't think it's a racism thing.

It's not rap, but I did remember another black-fronted band that charted on Alternative (and, yes, it's in that database link) --- Living Colour.

 

[justpassingthough]

Sorry to bring up the elephant in the room, but race has a HUGE part in whether the Alternative format will play rap artists - you're talking about a demographic which is 99% white

If "Airplanes" by B. O. B. had been performed by a white artist, for example, I can almost guarantee it would have charted on Alternative - and if "Lose Yourself" had been performed by a black artist, I can almost guarantee that Alternative wouldn't have touched it

"Numb" is primarily a Linkin Park song, not a Jay-Z song - and, again, sorry to keep bring this up, but if "Numb/Encore" had been performed by Jay-Z WITHOUT Linkin Park, no Alternative station wouldn't have touched it

If you guys can find one example of a black rapper who charted on Alternative (with a rap track - IMO Hey Ya doesn't count), I'll be extremely surprised...

THIS guy gets it.

I think thats an oversimplified explanation. Yes, alternative doesn't play a lot or any black rappers on a consistent basis, because thats simply not the format. Hip hop belongs on urban, rhythmic and CHR stations, period. As the remainder of the thread pointed out, though, there are certain songs that break through that are appropriate for alternative- regardless of race of the artist.

Just Passing Through -

Try this link, and see if you can find any black rappers that have EVER charted on Alternative - I can't find any - not even one (and neither Wu-Tung Clan, De La Soul, nor Public Enemy ever charted on Alternative, and that database goes back into the 80s)

http://www.popradiotop20.com/Modern-Rock/index.htm

Sorry, but it seems like you're sugarcoating the truth

I think if charting on the alternative chart is your argument, then its a somewhat weak argument. Alternative has never really been a "hit driven" format- even today alternative stations play the crap out of 90s grunge and alternative because it still fits the sound of the format. Alternative has always been about finding a unique sound outside of the mainstream- and I'd venture that most true alternative artists aren't all that interested in where they chart at alternative stations. This isn't CHR and it shouldn't be. Alternative stations should be the stations taking musical risks, or it just evolves into a rock version of CHR or a slightly harder Hot AC.

Realistically, I got that radio is a business and stations have to survive in an era of PPM and probably have to spin their big hits in rotation in a way they never had to before but that still doesn't undermine my argument that black artists get played at alternative- just not Black hip hop artists that do not fit the sound of the format.

 

[justpassingthough]

Not to dwell on this (but it is an interesting disagreement we are having), the lack of Black hip hop artists does not equal alternative been a whitewashed format. The lack of Black artists at alternative radio is a correlation- as there aren't many Black artists making alternative music. We've already named a handful of Black artists who have charted at Alternative.

If you're saying that alternative radio is whitewashed because of racism, then you'd have to prove causation, such as alternative MD's being unwilling to play Black artists because they do not see them as musical equals or see music by white artists as supreme. Thats a much larger leap to take in any argument, and probably nearly impossible to prove or disprove.

 

[atlantaboy]

^I don't think anyone's saying that Alternative is unwilling to play black artists (Lenny Kravitz, Gnarls Barkley/Cee-Lo Green, Outkast, Living Colour, etc.)

The question is whether Alternative is unwilling to play black rappers, while having no problem playing white rappers - so as a format, yes, I think Alternative is racist - there may be a couple of stations that are exceptions, but again, that database consists of all acts to chart on the Alternative format since the 1980s, and I cannot find one black rapper/rap act in scanning that entire database

 

[atlantaboy]

Sorry to bring up the elephant in the room, but race has a HUGE part in whether the Alternative format will play rap artists - you're talking about a demographic which is 99% white

If "Airplanes" by B. O. B. had been performed by a white artist, for example, I can almost guarantee it would have charted on Alternative - and if "Lose Yourself" had been performed by a black artist, I can almost guarantee that Alternative wouldn't have touched it

"Numb" is primarily a Linkin Park song, not a Jay-Z song - and, again, sorry to keep bring this up, but if "Numb/Encore" had been performed by Jay-Z WITHOUT Linkin Park, no Alternative station wouldn't have touched it

If you guys can find one example of a black rapper who charted on Alternative (with a rap track - IMO Hey Ya doesn't count), I'll be extremely surprised...

THIS guy gets it.

I think thats an oversimplified explanation. Yes, alternative doesn't play a lot or any black rappers on a consistent basis, because thats simply not the format. Hip hop belongs on urban, rhythmic and CHR stations, period. As the remainder of the thread pointed out, though, there are certain songs that break through that are appropriate for alternative- regardless of race of the artist.

Just Passing Through -

Try this link, and see if you can find any black rappers that have EVER charted on Alternative - I can't find any - not even one (and neither Wu-Tung Clan, De La Soul, nor Public Enemy ever charted on Alternative, and that database goes back into the 80s)

http://www.popradiotop20.com/Modern-Rock/index.htm

Sorry, but it seems like you're sugarcoating the truth

I think if charting on the alternative chart is your argument, then its a somewhat weak argument. Alternative has never really been a "hit driven" format- even today alternative stations play the crap out of 90s grunge and alternative because it still fits the sound of the format. Alternative has always been about finding a unique sound outside of the mainstream- and I'd venture that most true alternative artists aren't all that interested in where they chart at alternative stations.

This is the strangest argument I've ever heard - you're actually saying that Alternative acts don't care about the Alternative chart, and therefore...they could be receiving airplay, and somehow are being removed from the chart by Mediabase (because they don't care about it)? Huh? ???

 

[awp69]

^I don't think anyone's saying that Alternative is unwilling to play black artists (Lenny Kravitz, Gnarls Barkley/Cee-Lo Green, Outkast, Living Colour, etc.)

The question is whether Alternative is unwilling to play black rappers, while having no problem playing white rappers - so as a format, yes, I think Alternative is racist - there may be a couple of stations that are exceptions, but again, that database consists of all acts to chart on the Alternative format since the 1980s, and I cannot find one black rapper/rap act in scanning that entire database

I don't want to continue down this murky road, but if Alternative is willing to play black artists like the ones you mentioned, how could the format as a whole be racist? And only racist when it comes to rap?

I still just think it all revolves around how a song fits with the rest of the music they play. Just happens to be that rappers like the Beastie Boys fit in better than other rap groups in the genre and they happen to be white. Just like the example I gave of Darius Rucker being accepted in the country format. His music fit in. I think if a rap group came along today that was black and truly sounded like it would fit in the alternative format then they'd play it (I just happen to be of the opinion that this song isn't one of them).

Rap in general isn't played as much as it was back in the '90s on alt stations. Do you hear new Eminem songs being played on Alternative stations just because he's white? No. Because they don't fit with what is considered alternative. CHR palys him, but not Alternative. The Beastie Boys' hits from the '90s are generally the only rap songs I still hear on alt stations for the most part.

I just think it's a little overreaching to say black rappers aren't played on alt stations because of their race. It's all the sound.

 

[MarcR]

^I don't think anyone's saying that Alternative is unwilling to play black artists (Lenny Kravitz, Gnarls Barkley/Cee-Lo Green, Outkast, Living Colour, etc.)

The question is whether Alternative is unwilling to play black rappers, while having no problem playing white rappers - so as a format, yes, I think Alternative is racist - there may be a couple of stations that are exceptions, but again, that database consists of all acts to chart on the Alternative format since the 1980s, and I cannot find one black rapper/rap act in scanning that entire database

As I said previously, it was the takeover of the Hip Hop genre by gangsta rappers that resulted in the music not garnering airplay on Alternative stations. There was no way Alternative stations would play songs that disrespected women and glorified violence. Hip Hop artists like De La Soul, Public Enemy and Arrested Development, regardless of what the charts from that era say, were played on Alternative stations.

 

[atlantaboy]

I just think it's a little overreaching to say black rappers aren't played on alt stations because of their race. It's all the sound.

Don't you think that "Airplanes" by B. O. B. had an Alternative "sound"? Or "Gangsta's Paradise" by Coolio? - I sure do

"Lose Yourself" had a clear Alternative sound, but "Airplanes" and "Gangsta's Paradise" didn't have an Alternative sound? Sorry, but you're kidding yourself

 

[atlantaboy]

Hip Hop artists like De La Soul, Public Enemy and Arrested Development, regardless of what the charts from that era say, were played on Alternative stations.

Wow, you guys are grasping at straws - I guess Alternative stations must've secretly played hip hop artists, but forgotten to include them in their official playlist - and when Mediabase/BDS took over, the software must've skipped over any tracks by black rappers :

This must be a pretty big conspiracy...

 

[MarcR]

I just think it's a little overreaching to say black rappers aren't played on alt stations because of their race. It's all the sound.

Don't you think that "Airplanes" by B. O. B. had an Alternative "sound"? Or "Gangsta's Paradise" by Coolio? - I sure do

"Lose Yourself" had a clear Alternative sound, but "Airplanes" and "Gangsta's Paradise" didn't have an Alternative sound? Sorry, but you're kidding yourself

"Gangsta's Paradise", though admittedly a good song, really wouldn't belong on Alternative radio. None of the Alt stations have a history of playing West Coast Rap. As for "Airplanes", the song sounds as though it was produced strictly for Top 40 radio and its teen audience. I could imagine, though, playing something by Drake or, as I said above, Frank Ocean..

 

[MarcR]

Hip Hop artists like De La Soul, Public Enemy and Arrested Development, regardless of what the charts from that era say, were played on Alternative stations.

Wow, you guys are grasping at straws - I guess Alternative stations must've secretly played hip hop artists, but forgotten to include them in their official playlist - and when Mediabase/BDS took over, the software must've skipped over any tracks by black rappers :

This must be a pretty big conspiracy...

The word "Alternative" wasn't even used in the late '80s to describe the handful of stations that played music outside of the mainstream, and the stations that played such music weren't exactly homogenous. I don't know what KROQ or 91X played in the late '80s, but I do know WDRE played some hip hop.

 

[atlantaboy]

^I'm sure you're right about WDRE, but I'm not sure that station qualified for Billboard's "Modern Rock" panel, which in the late 80s consisted mostly of college stations

 

[dtuba]

^^ I seem to recall that KROQ played a "smattering" of hip hop artists, most prominently Grandmaster Flash, and a long-defunct group called the Boogie Boys (??).

 

[justpassingthough]

Hip Hop artists like De La Soul, Public Enemy and Arrested Development, regardless of what the charts from that era say, were played on Alternative stations.

Wow, you guys are grasping at straws - I guess Alternative stations must've secretly played hip hop artists, but forgotten to include them in their official playlist - and when Mediabase/BDS took over, the software must've skipped over any tracks by black rappers :

This must be a pretty big conspiracy...

I think we've reached a crossroads where we are actually have two separate arguments here and won't ever agree.

While I see your point about alternative only playing white hip hop artists and skipping over black artists that may fit the format like B.O.B., I still don't think it makes the format racist. If Alternative played every Eminem track that hit urban, rhythmic or CHR radio and ignored every track from a Black artist then maybe I'd agree with you. However, Alternative has really only touched a few Eminem songs and has largely ignored all of his other work, including any collaborations with artists like Dr Dre, Lil Wayne, 50 Cent, D12, and on and on. These aren't alternative records- they're hip hop records. Alternative has played the alternative records by Eminem- not because he is white, but because he has had a couple tracks that fit the format.