Make AM HD Radio not interfere here and I'll support it

[vsa]

Show me how you can make HD radio work here without clobbering and decimating the protected contours of the neighboring AM radio stations below and I'll support HD radio. The problem is that these examples illustrate HD radio's unacceptability. Anyone who can read maps and signal contours will see that it is impossible here for HD radio to play nice. You can't broadcast on your neighbor's frequency 20kHz away and NOT be broadcasting on top of their PROTECTED CONTOUR signals.

XETRA 690 AM - ANALOG (gets destroyed by KSPN in Los Angeles and Orange counties)
http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=XETRA&service=AM&status=F&hours=D

KSPN 710 AM - HD RADIO (stomps all over XETRA in Los Angeles and Orange counties)
http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KSPN&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

KBRT 740 AM - HD RADIO (stomps all over KFMB in North San Diego County and northward)
http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KBRT&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

KFMB 760 AM - ANALOG (is destroyed by KBRT in North San Diego County and northward)
http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KFMB&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

KNX 1070 AM - HD RADIO (stomps all over XEPRS in Los Angeles and Orange counties)
http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KNX&service=AM&status=L&hours=U

XEPRS 1090 AM - ANALOG (the KNX and KDIS tag-team kills XEPRS in Los Angeles and Orange counties)
http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=XEPRS&service=AM&status=F&hours=D

KDIS 1110 AM - HD RADIO (stomps all over XEPRS in Los Angeles and Orange counties)
http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KDIS&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

I could point to many other examples and even record sample audio, but I have a busy life. Posting audio online can also compromise my desire to remain anonymous. These maps will speak for themselves.

 

[Mike Walker]

A reasonable request (that it be demonstrated to you that HD isn't wiping out existing services). I think it's just as reasonable to request that you (or someone) document not just what can be measured, but HOW IT IMPACTS REAL-WORLD RECEPTION. Measurements are an extremely useful tool, and any "test report" should conclude them. But at most measurements suggest what we may hear, what we probably will hear. Anyone who tests audio gear can tell you there ARE some components which test poorly, but sound great (and vice versa). Take an amplifier with high (even order) distortion, and "only" 60db of separation, that sounds just as good as one that measures far better. Measurements suggest what we may hear, what we PROBABLY will hear. But things sometimes don't sound the way we expect, because our ears ARE FAR FROM LINEAR. Any audiologist knows that God "tuned" them to be more sensitive in the midrange (for instance) where human voices "live". A 50db s/n ratio at 2-5khz ain't too impressive, and will probably yield audible hiss. But a 50db s/n ratio at 100hz will probably sound dead quiet in most rooms. The former is in the range where human hearing is most sensitve, the latter where it is LEAST.

LISTENING IS SCIENTIFICALLY VALID, BECAUSE Ears aren't linear! RECORD IT, BABY. If you can't, hopefully someone else can.

 

[vsa]

Mike Walker wrote: "...request that you (or someone) document not just what can be measured, but HOW IT IMPACTS REAL-WORLD RECEPTION..."

Mike. Get a radio. Tune it to a strong, loud AM signal that puts a city grade signal over your house. Take it into your bathroom and set it down on the counter. Turn up the volume REAL loud. Now, get in the shower and turn on the water full blast with your head under it!!! There you have it. It sounds just like that. Move around anywhere you'd like inside that shower. That's how it sounds as you drive around the Los Angeles/Orange County Metro while listening to either XETRA or XEPRS. That's how KFMB sounds north of Oceanside. I'm not talking about a slight background hiss, Mike. It is GROSS interference. Loud noise over loud signals. Got it yet????????????

Now, if my hearing was so bad that I can't hear the sound of the shower, only lower frequencies, then I might think that there's no problem. That's the deception perpetrated by iBiquity. Use only deaf radios.

 

[radiopilot]

Mike Walker wrote: "...request that you (or someone) document not just what can be measured, but HOW IT IMPACTS REAL-WORLD RECEPTION..."

Mike. Get a radio. Tune it to a strong, loud AM signal that puts a city grade signal over your house. Take it into your bathroom and set it down on the counter. Turn up the volume REAL loud. Now, get in the shower and turn on the water full blast with your head under it!!! There you have it. It sounds just like that. Move around anywhere you'd like inside that shower. That's how it sounds as you drive around the Los Angeles/Orange County Metro while listening to either XETRA or XEPRS. That's how KFMB sounds north of Oceanside. I'm not talking about a slight background hiss, Mike. It is GROSS interference. Loud noise over loud signals. Got it yet????????????

Now, if my hearing was so bad that I can't hear the sound of the shower, only lower frequencies, then I might think that there's no problem. That's the deception perpetrated by iBiquity. Use only deaf radios.

VSA..

This is what I've been telling these guys all along, even my wife had to agree it sounded like someone taking a shower while recording the sample... I think these guys have been either in radio too long that their ears have become insensitive akin to construction workers with a chisel hammer... they just don't get it, and then they post these haphazard recordings made with a 'cassette' player and a microphone (was it a AKG or a Nueman) who knows but PLEASE don't tell us that was a quality recording...

But what do I know my 'cheapy' equipment as others have suggested doesn't measure up to give definative takes on this subject.

Radiopilot

 

[Mike Walker]

Alright guys. Can you understand that NOT living in an "HD rich" environment like LA, in fact living in a state where there are almost no HD AM stations at all, I might wish for someone who does have access to, and suffers the effects of interference from such stations to demonstrate it to me? Short of an expensive trip, I have no way of confirming your claims. HD AM penetration is VERY low in most of the country (unlike HD FM).

Here's a recording I downloaded from the internet some time ago, which demonstrates in "real world terms" damage from HD AM. I was very pro AM HD until I heard THIS RECORDING. This recording is the reason why I constantly harp on the need for others to DOCUMENT their claims of interference, because it (this recording) seems to do just that rather dramatically! http://www.theproductionroom.net/hdnoise.mp3

 

[R.F. Burns]

Alright guys. Can you understand that NOT living in an "HD rich" environment like LA, in fact living in a state where there are almost no HD AM stations at all, I might wish for someone who does have access to, and suffers the effects of interference from such stations to demonstrate it to me? Short of an expensive trip, I have no way of confirming your claims. HD AM penetration is VERY low in most of the country (unlike HD FM).

Here's a recording I downloaded from the internet some time ago, which demonstrates in "real world terms" damage from HD AM. I was very pro AM HD until I heard THIS RECORDING. This recording is the reason why I constantly harp on the need for others to DOCUMENT their claims of interference, because it (this recording) seems to do just that rather dramatically! http://www.theproductionroom.net/hdnoise.mp3

I understand your comments and listened to your file Mike, and my response is that first, out of market stations are only really listened to by Dxers. The average person isn't listening to skywave broadcasts. Most people find a local AM or FM station and that's what they listen to. Even the recording of KOA interfering with itself is cuased by a signal being received partially by groundwave and partially by skywave. If it were all groundwave the fadiung wouldn't occur. That fading is caused by phase changes which take place when the signal bounces off the ionosphere. If IBOC is legalized for post sunset operation we'll see just how much real world interference occurs. My belief is that IBOC should only be licensed for Day light hours with the priviso that a HD station can keep their IBOC generator on in pre and post sunlight hours, so that drive times can be covered. In other words make IBOC usage a 5:30 AM to 7 PM thing no matter the time of year. Over time if analog operation disappears, the rules can be amended to fit the then current usage. Radio is a business and as much as I enjoy DXing myself it hs to take a back seat to allowing the industry to remain profitable with all the new competition it faces which is coming on board every day.

 

[Mike Walker]

Respectfully RF, there are lots of folks west of the Mississipi who are a hundred miles or more from ANY station, so all radio is "DX". It's not just a hobby, it's the only way (by radio) they can receive info.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Respectfully RF, there are lots of folks west of the Mississipi who are a hundred miles or more from ANY station, so all radio is "DX". It's not just a hobby, it's the only way (by radio) they can receive info.

Having not lived in that part of the country I will defer to you in this case. The question is where do these people live? In other words are they in a major city or in the rural sections where population density of small. By the way, I left out one possible scenario which might cause an IBOC problem for people and that's if you live in a null of a directional array. In my part of the country with all the high power non directional facilities we can hear them for hours on end while traveling. My friends mother moveed to a town near Philadelphia and listened to WPEN which at the time played big band music. Where she could hear WNEW AM (now WBBR) which ran 50 KW non D day and directional night, everywhere from NY to Buffalo to New England at night and of course the same for day. She used to drive in and out of little (5KW) WPEN's pattern in just a few minutes. That's why i suggested that demos be made from different parts of the country. What we get from some through are links and accusations. Also, understand that not evry station is well engineered. HD puts burdons on stations which traditional analog does not Maybe it's time the FCC went back to requiring anual proofs.

 

[Mike Walker]

Annual proofs would be a great idea. I'd love an FCC that monitored and maintained broadcast quality, and cared more about the RF and Audio environment than about Janet Jackson's mammary glands. We have those stupid V-Chips. If people would just use them, we wouldn't have to aim all programming (on over the air radio and tv) at children!

As for the "west of the Mississippi" reference, I was speaking of farmers and ranchers in the very sparsely populated western part of our great country! I wonder if they'd get much of anything if we had AM HD 24/7. On a more personal note, I hope nobody takes away my Grand Ole' Opry! Ask WSM if "only dxers listen to out of town stations"! Regular folk' just like you and I have kept the Opry going for eight decades!

 

[stevenNOLA]

WSM is great... I listen to it on occasion here in Houston. I was excited about "WSM Radio" on XM but it is not the live feed from WSM. Bummer.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Annual proofs would be a great idea. I'd love an FCC that monitored and maintained broadcast quality, and cared more about the RF and Audio environment than about Janet Jackson's mammary glands. We have those stupid V-Chips. If people would just use them, we wouldn't have to aim all programming (on over the air radio and tv) at children!

As for the "west of the Mississippi" reference, I was speaking of farmers and ranchers in the very sparsely populated western part of our great country! I wonder if they'd get much of anything if we had AM HD 24/7. On a more personal note, I hope nobody takes away my Grand Ole' Opry! Ask WSM if "only dxers listen to out of town stations"! Regular folk' just like you and I have kept the Opry going for eight decades!

Well, if I were an opry fan and I had access to high speed internet I'd stream their audio. WSM does very high quality streaming and in stereo. The fact that we in NY have a local on 660 means that at best WSM has always been only a DXers catch. The station can barely be heard here in the NY metro area. Do we throw out an improvement which might allow the spectrum to survive into the future by covering the populated areas filled with millions of people so that a very few can listen to a station which the station isn't protected in and isn't getting any revenue from anyway? If those distant areas which aren't covered by local stations want to hear things like the Opry, it's available over the internet where it won't fade in and out. That sounds hard hearted but it's also relaistic.

 

[Mike Walker]

High speed internet. Yeah. That'll work great in my car on Saturday night

 

[R.F. Burns]

High speed internet. Yeah. That'll work great in my car on Saturday night

Then the answer is to find a local station who will affiliate with WSM and carry the Opry for your local market. Anything that is worth doing takes work.

 

[4dude]

I've heard someone say "Get a digital reciever and it doesnt interfere"

I dont want that garbage...... I like my traditional analog AM radio

 

[R.F. Burns]

I've heard someone say "Get a digital reciever and it doesnt interfere"

I dont want that garbage...... I like my traditional analog AM radio

Well I guess that means your out of luck. Sorry to say, broadcasters have too much invested in IBOC for them to drop it anytime soon, if ever.

 

[wkbam1690]

Here's a recording I downloaded from the internet some time ago, which demonstrates in "real world terms" damage from HD AM. I was very pro AM HD until I heard THIS RECORDING. This recording is the reason why I constantly harp on the need for others to DOCUMENT their claims of interference, because it (this recording) seems to do just that rather dramatically! http://www.theproductionroom.net/hdnoise.mp3

Mark Durenburger (the host on the recording) is one of the most highly regarded broadcast engineers of the past forty years. He designed the Gentner SPH-4 telephone interface which brought quality phone calls to many stations back in the eighties and nineties, before the digital boxes. Mark's reputation is above reproach on most any radio-related subject.

 

[paul vincent zecchino]

Dear vsa -

Concur. Will gladly support Digital Radio, so long as it doesn't interfere.

Broadcasters have too much invested in HD? There they go again, crying like Victims. Not all broadcasters invested in HD, just the usual suspects. They can afford to turn around.

But admitting error is more painful than money lost, isn't it? Judging by their reactive overblown denials of obvious interference, it's safe to say this is a vainglorious bunch.

The White Star Line invested well in their technological marvel. Considered invincible, those given authority over it forged ahead, against all expressed caveats.

The score? Iceberg - 1. Titanic - >1500 lives lost to 'too much invested' and sheer vanity.

Dr. Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasota Key, Florida
21 March, 2007

"They are weak, unruly,
and believe in nothing."
- H. Lecter, M.D.
"Hannibal", c. 2002
Thomas Harris

 

[radiopilot]

Dear vsa -

Concur. Will gladly support Digital Radio, so long as it doesn't interfere.

Broadcasters have too much invested in HD? There they go again, crying like Victims. Not all broadcasters invested in HD, just the usual suspects. They can afford to turn around.

But admitting error is more painful than money lost, isn't it? Judging by their reactive overblown denials of obvious interference, it's safe to say this is a vainglorious bunch.

The White Star Line invested well in their technological marvel. Considered invincible, those given authority over it forged ahead, against all expressed caveats.

The score? Iceberg - 1. Titanic - >1500 lives lost to 'too much invested' and sheer vanity.

Dr. Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasota Key, Florida
21 March, 2007

"They are weak, unruly,
and believe in nothing."
- H. Lecter, M.D.
"Hannibal", c. 2002
Thomas Harris

Back in 60's up through the 70's was the C-Cuam AM stereo hype and we see where that took AM... many broadcasters switched their transmitters in the hope it would catch on and plenty of manufacturers has C-Cuam built into car stereos and home stereos and where is it now? Only a handful of C-Cuam AM stereo broadcasters are now still operating... but where are all the stereos... I'm fifty and as yet have never came across a C-Cuam car or home stereo receiver or radio and yet to even hear it on the AM band.... testament to what HD will hold in the future unless it's FORCED fed onto the weary public.

I just don't understand these guys.. I just posted REAL engineering data that PROVES with real lab tests done by a COMPETANT engineer with RF dealings in reference to the noise generated by the HD sidebands and yet 'they' the technical ones still refute the results and call it B.S.

A hidden agenda? It's got to be for all the circling of the wagons against all those that oppose HD for obvious reasons.

Radiopilot

 

[paul vincent zecchino]

Dear Radiopilot and fellow lovers of good radio -

Exactly as you say, sir. Those who sell legit products embrace questions, tell the truth, and have no need to circle the wagons.

HD jams. Period. Even iNiquity's boy wonder admits it. So, why do those who object to KorpseKasters being called 'crooks', employ a crook's defense? Cop asks crook if he knows the correct time. Simple question, isn't it? Crook's reply? "Let's see your proof."

Now we're told to produce tapes - I thought they're no longer available? - of HD jamming? And if we don't produce tapes, then it can't possibly exist? Do they hear themselves?

HD stooge-radio may well be approved. But that doesn't mean consumers will buy it.

Dr. Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasota Key, Florida
21 March, 2007

 

[davideduardo]

Back in 60's up through the 70's was the C-Cuam AM stereo hype and we see where that took AM...

C-Quam was not even on the drawing boards until about 1978. There was no AM stereo hype in the 60's and in most of the 70's

AM stereo was developed in the late 70's, and due to legal issues, was delayed until the early 80's, long after music listening had migrated to FM. Because of this, it was DOA.

many broadcasters switched their transmitters in the hope it would catch on

Nobody changed their transmitters. AM stereo was produced by a "generator" or encoder which connected to existing transmitter.

and plenty of manufacturers has C-Cuam built into car stereos and home stereos and where is it now?

Actually, very few different models were ever available. Relatively few stations encoded. In fact, I believe more HD stations operate today than ever operated with CQuam.

Only a handful of C-Cuam AM stereo broadcasters are now still operating...

And that is a fortunate thing.

but where are all the stereos... I'm fifty and as yet have never came across a C-Cuam car or home stereo receiver or radio and yet to even hear it on the AM band.... testament to what HD will hold in the future unless it's FORCED fed onto the weary public.

I never owned an AM stereo receiver, and I was in radio then and have always been a gaget freak... I even built an Altair in the 70's. I now have bought three HD radios, including one that came in my car.

I just don't understand these guys.. I just posted REAL engineering data that PROVES with real lab tests done by a COMPETANT engineer with RF dealings in reference to the noise generated by the HD sidebands and yet 'they' the technical ones still refute the results and call it B.S.

HD does put a lot of energy in the sidebands. That is the nature of the beast. However, there is a debatable point that to be "interferenfce" it has to interfere with signals that were, up to then, being listened to. They weren't.

A hidden agenda? It's got to be for all the circling of the wagons against all those that oppose HD for obvious reasons.

There is an agenda: keeping free terrestrial radio viable. Some trade-offs may be needed, but the price is acceptable to broadcasters.