Market money

[ajhenderson]

Curious about money in the Utica-Rome market.

1) I saw that Syracuse's total market radio billing is $31-some million a year. Curious as to what U-R's is - my guess would be around $5 mil? What percentage of the annual figure is attributed to Lite and the other top stations?
EDIT: Actually, $5 mil seems high.

2) What are average salaries for people in the biz? On air talents, talk hosts (the one or two there are at IBX), production people?

 

[BobRoss]

Last time I checked with a contact who had solid numbers, Lite alone was billing more than the entire CC cluster. I would imagine the Frog is doing about the same. Both stations usually have such huge numbers, they eat up most of the national buys in the market. (Bearing in mind, the public numbers have been embargoed for awhile now, so hard to say if that's still true... but I'd still be willing to bet on it.)

As far as salaries go, I'd guess most jocks are making low to mid 20's, save for some of the folks who've been around for years and years. There's no way the likes of Matt Herkimer, Linda Rae, Jerry Kraus or Alison would still be here today if they were still making entry-level money or barely more than. I'd have to guess these folks are at least upper 30's, being conservative, and hopefully somewhere in the 40's considering their tenure, not just at their current stations, but overall in the market.

Then again, even folks like Kenny the Promo Guy and Roadrunner eventually left Kiss after 10 years... I believe Kenny went to HCCC, and I'm not sure where Roadie went. But if Kenny's making more "starting out" at HCCC than he was after such a long time at Kiss, I guess that might tell you something. (Then again, maybe it wasn't so much the money, but more the job security once rumors started flying about CC selling the cluster.)

Of course, we still have yet to see the overall effects of the CC sale. Once all the licenses and title deeds have finally arrived at their final destinations, how many people will be slashed? How many currently local airshifts will wind up being voicetracked (or maybe even simulcast) from Syracuse? If Galaxy's decisions ultimately hurt their ratings, Regent might realize they don't need to work so hard at maintaining their lead anymore... and look for ways to cut back themselves. Why pay to keep a million-man army in shape, when your enemy only has a hundred men? You'd still win with only a thousand soldiers, blindfolded with one hand tied behind their backs.

 

[Dave4120]

Hi Bob...Without listing anything here, you can be assured that Lite and Frog numbers from this past Spring book are just as strong as ever. I look at them all the time. I would also venture to guess that even the on-air talent that have been around for years, are not in the upper 30's or low 40's except for maybe one.

I would not count on Galaxy to make many in-roads on Regent with the way they do things. Anything that happens positive will happen by accident. Obviously, WOUR can only go up without any competition, but beside that, it will be difficult in my view.

 

[BobRoss]

Oh, don't get me wrong... I'm not counting on Galaxy to make any inroads against Regent. Looking back at my previous post, I guess my placement of the word "their" in the 4th paragraph may have been wrongly interpreted to mean Regent's ratings would be hurt.

I meant that if Galaxy's ratings go down... that could put Regent in a position where they feel confident enough to slack off and make some cuts. Then again, thinking about it some more... if national buy prices are based on ratings points, they still have an incentive to beat the hell out of the competition as brutally as possible.

I'm still surprised that some religious outfit stepped up to buy WRCK and, what was it, 2 other stations? We've just talked about how Utica/Rome can't support 2 news/talk stations, and the country music score stands at: Big Frog 3, Competitors 0. There are already a handful of religious formats on the air around here... so why is there a desire to bring in even more? Are they really making THAT much money? As far as I'm concerned, when stations like WRCK flip to religious programming, they might as well be signing off for good.

Side note on salaries: Even if their paychecks are "only" in the 30's... remember to add in all those talent fees for remotes. The morning guy for Oldies usually cashes in big time, since he's the only local jock on the air... so he automatically gets all their remotes, including all the car cruise-ins. Next you have Lite, with remotes split among 3 jocks, and then Frog, where there are 4 jocks competing for their cut of the action. Sadly, the folks at WIBX, who make the least to begin with, can't even cut a break with remotes. It's a conflict of interest to have news anchors endorse clients -- and there's no room in a syndicated clock for remotes anyway.

 

[Dave4120]

Speaking of remotes...Sad that when we did remotes for the huge talent fee of $25, we had to talk for almost 3-hours straight! You had to be a personality and be able to ad-lib. I think for the most part, remotes do not have the same effect today as they did back in the 70's, 80's and even early 90's.

Most on-air talent, (there are still a few pros in the market) could never do a three hour remote today without sounding very non-professional. Sad part about the remotes is that a business now only gets (2), 60-second remote breaks per hour and the remote is only 2-hours long, while getting paid anywhere from $150 to $200. Then, the stations get back into music. Most people never hear the remote breaks under this system because if they are in there car driving, it does not take 30-minutes to get from point "A" to point "B" in this area, and that's how far apart the remote breaks are. So, you could be in your car at 10 past the hour when a break just finished, get to your destination at 35 after the hour, then while you are out of your vehicle, the next break comes on at 40 past, and you missed both breaks.

Almost better off producing your ad as a remote, then buy two ads an hour for the two hours you would do a remote. It will sound the same and save money.

As you pointed out earlier Bob, would not suprise me to see Galaxy turn MIX into something like their Sunny 102 in Syracuse. I would be surprised if they had live people on all day. The cheapest way to do things is the Galaxy way. And if history repeats itself, the music mix will be off, like it has been for years on WRCK. Have to remember, what might work at Galaxies other stations, does not mean it will work in Utica/Rome. Never has, never will, even though when your stubborn, you learn that the hard way.

 

[therealjm12]

I don't have any inside information but who's to say if the religious outfits will run the stations in Utica-Rome and Watertown as religious formats. I know not all of Crawfords stations are strictley religious formats (although they seem to always sneak some religion in). Maybe they are only interested in one station and will sell the other
stations off. I really can't see three full time commercial religious FM stations in Utica-Rome. There's got to be an over saturation point even for Jesus.

 

[BobRoss]

Almost better off producing your ad as a remote, then buy two ads an hour for the two hours you would do a remote. It will sound the same and save money.

Sadly, some friends who once worked for CC Syracuse tell me that's how they actually do many of their remotes! The "remote breaks" are voicetracked, and then the talent just shows up and stands there with the station paraphernalia for two hours. Why? There's nobody back in the studio to put them on the air! It's nearly 100% automation on the weekend. How lame is that... for a listener to show up, hearing the talent "broadcasting live" on the radio, while that talent is just standing there making small talk with the client or chatting shop with the account rep?

I remember what you're talking about Dave... when a talent had a remote, they literally did the entire airshift from the remote (or at least the length of the airshift which fell within the remote's timeframe). There was actually something for listeners to SEE if they showed up. Today, most listeners don't care. The fact that "remotes" only consist of the talent going on for 2 minutes about a client, often railroading through copy in a Charlie Celi fashion, tells even the most gullible of listeners, "we only come out to play when we're trying to sell you something."

There are always the handful of listeners who will come to every remote, but most people don't care. They know (or at least have the impression) the minute they step out of the car to see the DJ, they're going to get surrounded by the client's henchmen... trying to sell them cars, furniture, carpeting or whatever have you. People don't want that kind of hassle. They just want to spin the hokey prize wheel, "win" their bumper sticker or other crappy-prize-du-jour, and get the hell outta there. And that's the other thing -- most people know it's the same crappy prizes every time. How many station bumper stickers or magnets does one need? Or better yet, CD's by obscure artists who never really made it... "but hey, the record company sent 40 copies, so let's give 'em away."

 

[ajhenderson]

Where are the religious stations in U-R? I count WYFY and a rimshot from Albany that doesn't city grade any of the market.

 

[Element9]

Want to read a good thread about remotes in a larger market, check out this thread on the Buffalo-Niagara Falls-Rochester board. Very interesting takes from a number of different poster.

-9-

 

[ThePickleReport]

Where are the religious stations in U-R? I count WYFY and a rimshot from Albany that doesn't city grade any of the market.

Lots of non-commercial and translators.

 

[BobRoss]

Where are the religious stations in U-R? I count WYFY and a rimshot from Albany that doesn't city grade any of the market.

There's a K-Love station somewhere in the low 100's, which was actually religious even when it was local. The call letters just popped into my head: WVVC, I think? They used to have plenty of bumper stickers out there, but the jocks were all replaced by some satellite format.

But soon there shall be more... three of the stations being sold by ClearChannel to Galaxy are being immediately spun off to some religious broadcaster. Without looking back at old posts or searching for articles (yeah, I'm being lazy tonight) I believe they are WRCK, WOKR and.... Hmm, I can't remember the third one. An AM station? Either way, I checked out this company's website right after the details of the spinoffs were announced, and they basically just run 2 or 3 satellite-driven Christian formats.

 

[ajhenderson]

Yes, you are correct; EMF bought WOUR and WRCK, IIRC. I would call K-Love/Air1 and similar formats CCM, a separate music format, and had thought Religious meant preaching and Christian talk (brokered time).

 

[Dave4120]

Hi Everyone...Just a slight correction. EMF purchased WRCK-107.3 and WOKR-93.5 from Galaxy. Ken Roser purchased WSKS-97.9 and WSKU-105.5, WUTQ-AM-1550 and WADR-1480-AM from Galaxy.

Ed Levine and Galaxy kept WOUR-96.9, WUMX-102.5, WRNY-AM-1350 and WIXT-AM-1230, and WTLB-AM-1310

 

[Element9]

Hi Everyone...Just a slight correction. EMF purchased WRCK-107.3 and WOKR-93.5 from Galaxy. Ken Roser purchased WSKS-97.9 and WSKU-105.5, WUTQ-AM-1550 and WADR-1480-AM from Galaxy.

Ed Levine and Galaxy kept WOUR-96.9, WUMX-102.5, WRNY-AM-1350 and WIXT-AM-1230, and WTLB-AM-1310

Say what you want about Levine (we have and we will), but he'll have a formidable combo in Utica-Rome. In Syracuse, he's been a thorn in the side of CC and CC Lite, er, Citadel. Now, he goes toe to toe with Regent. Much as the guy has a reputation for being a worm, I'd put my money on him. He made a savvy deal in Utica-Rome; buy, pluck, spin, strengthen. He has a great synergy with the Syracuse and Utica properties. It's textbook. This is going to be a very interesting brawl.

BTW, where's 'Bone... sounds like non-compete and non-disclosure clauses have him by the short ones.

-9-

 

[BobRoss]

Say what you want about Levine (we have and we will), but he'll have a formidable combo in Utica-Rome.

He definitely made out well with WOUR. By selling off WRCK and WOKR, he's got an airtight seal on the rock formats with WOUR and K-Rock on WKLL. Where WOUR used to play a mix of classic and new rock, I expect it will lean more classic so WKLL can have the newer stuff all to itself.

As for WUMX, last time the numbers were public, they were pulling somewhere around a 4 share, P12+. If Ed thinks he can do better (or at least be more profitable) by slashing the local talent in favor of a Sunny 102 simulcast, I won't be surprised. But there's one major downside to that idea. Sunny's playlist would be going nearly head-to-head with the long-dominant Lite 98.7. Sunny would have to provide a pretty convincing argument to lure people away. That might be tough for a simulcast to pull off. The Syracuse talent won't be able to superserve Utica very well, without alienating the original audience in Syracuse. Likewise, people in Utica don't want to listen to jocks that are always talking about events in and around Syracuse.

Even though I'd imagine Linda Rae's salary might be the biggest hurdle in the Mix lineup, Ed might actually do better by keeping Mix intact, but with some improvements. Rather than battling Lite head-on, Mix offers a younger-leaning, more upbeat Hot AC playlist. They've also had some halfway-decent local contests. But after the adrenaline wore off from the initial "launch," it seems like ClearChannel virtually gave up on promoting the station. It's like they just figure the first few months is enough, and then they can just ease back. Not quite, sorry!

Mix could make some inroads on Lite by looking at the overall promotional strategy. They need more visibility on TV and in the papers. They need to be out in the community more often. That's probably the toughie right now, since Linda Rae is PD (and rumored to be board-opping Whoopi every morning) and Mike Walsh is holding down production director duties. Neither job really provides much "free time" to be out doing remotes or even free charity appearances. Still, if schedules could somehow be loosened up a bit to allow more public appearances (maybe a contest where a jock delivers lunch to an entire office once a week), they could connect with a lot of new people and try to win them over.

I'd probably tweak the playlist a little too. Some of the "harder" songs on the Hot AC playlist might be a little "too much" for a dentist's waiting room, considering U-R is such a conservative market. No specific titles come to mind as I write this, but there's been a time or two I've heard Mix play something where I can just imagine old ladies in dentist's waiting rooms complaining, or people at their cubicles turning the station because they might feel the lyrics would offend co-workers or their boss. Even though there aren't very many titles I'd classify this way, I'd probably daypart them to play after 5pm. No radio station will ever be able to please all listeners all the time, but an "at work" station should be trying its best to NOT drive people away.

On the same token, they need to realize they have a chance to catch people after work too. Being "hotter" than Lite, they can attract people who don't want to be put to sleep by Delilah after work. They can attract younger listeners who might prefer Hot AC over the hip-hop on KISS. I realize it would be a dream to suggest an evening jock be hired, but there are some "selling points" that could still be promoted even when you're jockless. For example, Mix can play more music at night because they aren't stopping for sappy love dedications every 5 minutes. I realize nights aren't a "prime battleground" for radio, but any time you can get someone to sample the product, you've got a chance to hook them for good. It's all the little efforts -- and keeping up with them long-term -- that can help add up to a big result

 

[Dave4120]

There is no doubt that Ed made one heck of a business transaction with Clear Channel. One of the best in the industry. i have known and worked with Ed for for close to 15-years and have the utmost respect for him. He has always treated me and my clients very fairly and has always made the effort to help them succeed. However, that does not mean that I cannot have a different opinion of how he operates some of his stations and the music his stations program.

I totally agree he will own the classic rock market, at least for now. But in my opinion, Galaxy needs to get a better handle on the music needs of this market, because WRCK has never been on target. WRCK has tweaked their music over a dozen times in the past few years and it still not improve anything. Galaxy operates some stations as far as I'm concerned on a shoestring and I think that hinders them from gaining a loyal following.

Bob...Just my thoughts on MIX...I would think that Linda Rae will just leave, take her Clear Channel severance and maybe go back to school for her Masters in teaching. I would bet that Mike Walsh would get into some other PR field, and it would not surprise me if the "Doctor" Gerry Kraus just decided it was time to retire after 30-years.

The MIX music has been all over the place since early 2007 and if Galaxy tries to turn it into a Sunny 102, I wish them the best, but Sunny in Syracuse hardly exists, even with "Big Mike" and " Rick Gary".

Listeners in Utica/Rome just seem to be so different that I think it would take an Act Of Congress for people to switch from Lite to Sunny or any other similar sounding station no matter who it is.

 

[BobRoss]

I totally agree he will own the classic rock market, at least for now. But in my opinion, Galaxy needs to get a better handle on the music needs of this market, because WRCK has never been on target. WRCK has tweaked their music over a dozen times in the past few years and it still not improve anything.

I'm thinking many of the tweaks could be attributed to WRCK's status as a follower, rather than a leader. Stations that aren't #1 in their format are constantly trying to figure out why. Kneejerk reactions tend to come quicker and more often when you're a follower than a leader. Followers usually aren't patient enough to change just one thing and give it time. If the first change doesn't produce immediate results, they change something else. And another thing. And so on.

Once the sale is complete, Galaxy will be able to focus on just WOUR and WKLL, with no other competition. WRCK and The River will be gone. I don't really listen to rock often, but I've never heard anyone complain about K-Rock. And WOUR has such a strong heritage, hopefully Galaxy will respect that (the fact they kept WOUR and sold WRCK seems to indicate they do) and not screw up the music. Then again, if Ed has his Syracuse music person take over music for WOUR, you could be right Dave. They could still screw it up. But will Ed care? He won't have any competition, and I can't see Regent flipping anything over to rock.

The MIX music has been all over the place since early 2007 and if Galaxy tries to turn it into a Sunny 102, I wish them the best, but Sunny in Syracuse hardly exists, even with "Big Mike" and " Rick Gary".

Good point. Before I comment on Sunny... Mix music. When did Roadrunner leave? I think your early 2007 estimate is right on target with his departure. He was programming both Kiss and Mix. Shortly after, they gave Linda Rae the PD/MD stripes for Mix. A good move because, for once, Mix has a PD who can be devoted exclusively to Mix. (Roadie and Stew before him both juggled 2 stations, and since both had a long history with Kiss, there's no way they could have given Mix the attention it deserved, especially in the critical "launch phase." No PD can ever give their "original" station a backseat to a newer one, no matter how hard they try to consider them equally.)

But Linda was kind of a bad move in some ways... because -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- I don't believe she has ever been a PD or MD before. Or if she has, it must have been several years. So now you're throwing someone into the key position of working with Selector (or more likely MusicGen), who has little or no experience with the program or with MD theory in general. That's when you wind up getting into kneejerk reactions, or even worse, someone allowing their personal likes/dislikes to work their way into the playlist. Even if CC offers a corporate playlist for Hot AC's across the country, you can't just plug-and-play. You have to be able to tweak it according to the local market's tastes. Perhaps its just a matter of taking the time to give Linda some in-depth training on music scheduling. If she leaves and they decide to keep Mix intact, they'll need someone else who can be competent enough to do the music properly.

Now as for Sunny, you're absolutely right. It's not really doing any damage to Y94FM, and it would never steal any thunder from Lite. But as you said, Ed likes to do things on a shoestring. Simulcasting Sunny means his ONLY expenses for 102.5 would be the means to get the signal from Syracuse to Utica (which probably already exists), the automation to allow different spots to play in Utica (which also probably already exists), and the electricity to keep the station on the air. Even if he had to pay a little more for rights to use the jingles in 2 markets, and give the Syracuse jocks a slight raise, the costs are still pretty low. The jingles don't say "point one" at the end, and neither does the station logo ... so they're both ready for use in both markets. The only time you hear "point one" is when the jocks speak live, and from the "station voice," both of which can be changed quickly and at little or no cost. As long as Sunny's making enough money to stay afloat in Syracuse, a simulcast in Utica wouldn't necessarily require "excellent" ratings to be profitable.

I think 102.5 would get higher ratings and it would have potential for more revenue (specifically in on-air promotions and NTR) if it continued as Mix... but that would also require dedicated air talent, salaries, etc. The key is "potential" for more revenue, but if the ratings and sales people can't make it happen, I can see Ed pulling the plug for the less-ambitious, but more profitable Sunny simulcast. Or maybe he'll attempt to keep it as Mix, but with Syracuse jocks voicetracking it. Could still do better than a Sunny simulcast, and yeah, it'd be more work for the Syracuse peeps... but it would still be cheaper than live Utica jocks. The "middle" option, if you will.

 

[Dave4120]

Hi Bob...I agree with your comment of WRCK being a follower, however, Ed has been told hundreds of times by myself and others over the years, that the music mix on WRCK was off target. But, sometimes, people are stubborn and think they know more than anyone else, thus, WRCK never did much of anything. It was just there. No promotions, at least nothing that got any attention over the years. If it weren't for Keeler, WRCK would have done a slow death much sooner. There were many people that knew what music mix would have worked, but Galaxy would not listen.

Even though Galaxy can focus on WOUR, they had better listen better to others besides what's going on in there own mind. Yes, WOUR will pick up the some of the listeners of WOKR and WRCK, BUT, in latest ratings from just a few months ago, WOUR had it's lowest numbers and listenership in it's history! Just about 5 times less poeple than they had in their heyday. Not a good situation. So, the couple of people that thought they knew everything at WOUR and have brought the station down, can hand-off things to the Galaxy people, who's track record hasn't been any better. Again, I hope Galaxy does well, but, they need to just listen to some other people that know this business, even if they do not officially work for them.

The Roadrunner left in early 07 and is very happy in his new marketing position in the retail field. He just had enough of being told what to do at the corporate level, when they knew nothing about this market. You know how that goes. Someone in Texas telling you in Utica what to play, and what will and will not work. Real intelligent.

Then yes, poor Linda ends up doing the music. And you are right, she is not the person to choose the music for MIX. Ever since CC put or forced her in that position, the music went haywire. One minute the music was appealing to a teen, then a country crossover, then an 80's hit, throw in some disco and a couple of other areas, and what do you have...a station no one can staqnd for more than a few minutes. MIX has never focused on a core audience. They have tried to reach ages 18 to 54, and except for Country and a good LITE format, that is so difficult to achieve.

As we discussed earlier, it doesn't matter who owns or competes with Regent. It will be difficult to ever over throw them or take away a lot of listeners. It is quite amazing that FROG has dominated since 1988 when they signed on, which I was a part of, and Lite has been on top or close to it since they switched from Z-98.7 in 1990, which I was also a part of. it would be difficult for a major company owner to top them, let alone the smaller group owner.

 

[Element9]

Bob and Dave, you have conducted an interesting, informative and opinionated exchange on the dynamics in the Utica-Rome radio market. Not being in the market but capable of understanding the dynamics of what's happening there by virtue of your posts, I'd say your analysis was worth the consideration of present and putative owners and operators.

I have no idea how many insiders or managers read these boards and posts, but your comments make a lot of sense. If what you say is close to being true, Mix is a mess and needs to be (re)defined and market-focused.

Competition between a Lite AC and a Hot AC is not a bad thing for a market, even a market as small as Utica-Rome. It's certainly a lot less precarious than Buffalo (not a major market by any sense of the word), where three AC's are wrestling for market leadership, with only two likely to survive when the dust clears.

In your AC discussions however, it's beneficial to keep in mind that Country deserves to be seriously considered in any AC discussion. In some respects, Country has become the "Adult CHR" in many markets in the northeast. It's amazing to see how many markets have but ONE Country station... and all those shares to itself.

-9-

 

[BobRoss]

In your AC discussions however, it's beneficial to keep in mind that Country deserves to be seriously considered in any AC discussion. In some respects, Country has become the "Adult CHR" in many markets in the northeast. It's amazing to see how many markets have but ONE Country station... and all those shares to itself.

You're absolutely right. In this situation, though, Lite and Frog (the dominant AC and country) are both under the same roof, so there really isn't "competition" there, per se. They're usually #1 and #2 in the market... so if anything, Regent's best strategy is looking for ways to ensure Lite's P1's are Frog's P2's and vice versa. You could, in fact, argue that CC was always aware that Mix could never beat Lite... but if they could at least do some damage, that could give the #3 station better numbers, perhaps even enough to become #2. I don't know if that was the idea for sure, but it's a thought.

As far as competing with country, a number of attempts have been made, but none has succeeded. Bug Country only gets a small fraction of the Frog's numbers. I remember at least two attempts on 102.5, the first being WKDY, the second as Bob 102.5 (WRBT)... neither of those lasted for very long. And of course, there's the Moose in Boonville, but most people closer to the heart of the Utica-Rome metro probably don't even know it exists. Was there also once an attempt on what's now WKLL before it went to K-Rock? That's going back quite aways, so I could be totally off, but I want to say there was at least one other country competitor at some point. I just can't put my finger on it.

Either way, anytime the Frog has been challenged, they win. Bob 102.5 probably had the best chances at unseating the Frog. With their "20 song Bob-a-thons" they were able to get the Frog to ditch its long-time "10 in a row" moniker. But they gave up on it. If they had stayed with Bob, instead of flipping to Mix, I think 102.5's ratings could have been at least a full point or two higher than they are today.