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Martz group translstor problems in Detroit

I have no reason not to believe the complaints, but I would caution the plaintiffs to have some form of scientific data. The rules do not call for measurements, but these days you must apply the scientific method in some form. Right now I'm working for a station that is investigating interference from one of these high in the sky translators. Here is a post I made in an earlier thread:

Some may not know that translators have no minimum HAAT(Height above average terrain) In other words, stations (translators) such as the new WAMO on 100.1 are operating at 925 feet above average terrain. This phenomenon has spread nationwide, with some operating at 2,000 feet or higher above average terrain. They are using the call signs for the AM station, and programming like an FM station. Some people don't even know they are a translator, as they are permitted to re-broadcast the AM stations signal. My company has been hired to investigate interference issues with such translators. Some 99 watt, and many 250 watt translators have signals that rival Class A stations. These things are popping up all over the place, again, "to rebroadcast an AM station"

The one thing that many may not know is translators cannot interfere with "any" reception area of another commercial or non-com station. So, any regular listener is protected, no matter if they are in the protected (60dBu) contour or not. The burden is on the plaintiff, so the first step is to determine the listeners are in a receivable area. This is done by two methods, field strength and a spectrum analyzer. Demodulated audio is recorded and synced with the spectrum analyzer out to a laptop. The FIM and the spectrum analyzer both record the signal strength of the translator. A special directional antenna is then used to null out the translator and record the plaintiffs signal. This verifies the listener is in an actual "receivable" location, even though the rules do not call for this proof. Hopefully this helps anyone that may wonder "how in the hell some of these translators are reaching out so far?
 
Here is the latest rule section governing translator interference:

§ 74.1203 Interference.

(a) An authorized FM translator or booster station will not be
permitted to continue to operate if it causes any actual interference
to:

(1) The transmission of any authorized broadcast station; or

(2) The reception of the input signal of any TV translator, TV booster,
FM translator or FM booster station; or

(3) The direct reception by the public of the off-the-air signals of
any authorized broadcast station including TV Channel 6 stations, Class
D (secondary) noncommercial educational FM stations, and previously
authorized and operating FM translators and FM booster stations.
Interference will be considered to occur whenever reception of a
regularly used signal is impaired by the signals radiated by the FM
translator or booster station, regardless of the quality of such
reception, the strength of the signal so used, or the channel on which
the protected signal is transmitted.

(b) If interference cannot be properly eliminated by the application of
suitable techniques, operation of the offending FM translator or
booster station shall be suspended and shall not be resumed until the
interference has been eliminated. Short test transmissions may be made
during the period of suspended operation to check the efficacy of
remedial measures. If a complainant refuses to permit the FM translator
or booster licensee to apply remedial techniques which demonstrably
will eliminate the interference without impairment to the original
reception, the licensee of the FM translator or booster station is
absolved of further responsibility for that complaint.
 
So why don't all FM's to to 200 watts at 1900 feet? We could save a whole lot of electricity.
 
If you're one of the big owners and you paid $10 million or more for a property, and now someone who spent 1/40th of that is competing with you on a somewhat level playing field, you are almost obligated to try and make life difficult for them, especially as a public company.
 
Parttimer said:
If you're one of the big owners and you paid $10 million or more for a property, and now someone who spent 1/40th of that is competing with you on a somewhat level playing field, you are almost obligated to try and make life difficult for them, especially as a public company.
Click to expand...

It seems that translators are destined to become the new second-class citizens in broadcasting , with AM radio
relegated to third place. And that's a shame, because I like AM radio and am happy to see AM stations get the
chance to obtain an FM signal.

The WAMO Facebook page is full of comments about the signal, or lack of it. One person asked when reception
will be better in Westmoreland County. Barring the purchase of a full-market FM, or some other repeater, it will
never get better there. The public is not used to the concept of translators, especially when you plunk a major
set of call letters on one.

C.
 
It will be interesting to see how long it will take the CC and CBS lobby to get the gov't to restrict smaller companies from doing this...
 
... which may as well defeat the purpose of the entire translator station concept in the first place. Wasn't it originally intended to allow "smaller" broadcasters to have a voice on the local radio dial? Yes, "big radio" is making use of them to simulcast HD-2 channels and whatnot, but there ought to be room on the radio for everybody.
 
DToTheJ said:
... which may as well defeat the purpose of the entire translator station concept in the first place. Wasn't it originally intended to allow "smaller" broadcasters to have a voice on the local radio dial? Yes, "big radio" is making use of them to simulcast HD-2 channels and whatnot, but there ought to be room on the radio for everybody.
Click to expand...

Well, not really :)

Originally, translators were really intended to let small groups of *listeners* receive FM even if they lived too far from a station.

Obviously things have changed GREATLY since then!
 
DToTheJ said:
... which may as well defeat the purpose of the entire translator station concept in the first place. Wasn't it originally intended to allow "smaller" broadcasters to have a voice on the local radio dial? Yes, "big radio" is making use of them to simulcast HD-2 channels and whatnot, but there ought to be room on the radio for everybody.
Click to expand...

There isn't enough room on the radio for everybody. As listeners, surely, but not as broadcasters. There simply
aren't enough frequencies to go around.

The Internet and other platforms like Sirius/XM help to take up the slack, and for those who prefer only music to
radio, there is Pandora, Slacker, et. al.

I have yet to see a translator draw competitive ratings in any market.

C.
 
Cumulus also has one other translator success story - "Funny 102.5", the all-comedy station in Kansas City (KCMO-HD2, but one presumes nearly all the listening is coming off the 102.5 translator).

http://www.radio-info.com/markets/kansas-city

It's leveling off a bit, but still very impressive for a translator. Cumulus engineers these things with the maximum possible signal.

I still wonder if the novelty of a comedy format will wear off, but right now, it's in the top 15...
 
The aforementioned "Funny 102.5" in KC gets about the same ratings as the market's heritage AM news/talker, KMBZ. In fact, in March, it was beating KMBZ by a bit.
 
OhioMediaWatch said:
The aforementioned "Funny 102.5" in KC gets about the same ratings as the market's heritage AM news/talker, KMBZ. In fact, in March, it was beating KMBZ by a bit.
Click to expand...

Just had a look at the KC numbers. I stand corrected.

C.
 
But your basic point is right, Clarke...it's an anomaly.

"Funny 102.5" is the only one I can think of that has had such an impact in a market of any size. In Atlanta, Cumulus' "99X at 97.9" had some modest numbers. but it was the revitalizing of a full-market format. (And oddly enough, "99X at 97.9" was the FLAGSHIP of the NBA Atlanta Hawks this past season!)

"99X" has moved to another new translator move-in, 99.1, as 97.9 is now another HD2-to-translator effort, 80s/90s "Journey 97.9".

Here in the Buckeye State, Cumulus' 100.7 translator in Toledo just flipped from alt-rock "The Zone" (another continuation of an old full-power format lost to a sports FM flip) to top 40, and just brought on market top 40 veteran "Andrew Z" for mornings.

The best of these signals can be fairly equivalent to a Class A signal, especially in a flat area like KC. I suspect Pgh's terrain hampers whatever WAMO's 100.1 translator could do (maximum). But these things can be as much as 250 watts at NO height limit, if the engineering can fit it in.
 
OhioMediaWatch said:
I still wonder if the novelty of a comedy format will wear off, but right now, it's in the top 15...
Click to expand...

When it was tried in the suburban D.C. market back in the 80's it only lasted a few months.
 
OhioMediaWatch said:
The best of these signals can be fairly equivalent to a Class A signal, especially in a flat area like KC. I suspect Pgh's terrain hampers whatever WAMO's 100.1 translator could do (maximum). But these things can be as much as 250 watts at NO height limit, if the engineering can fit it in.
Click to expand...

The 102.5 Kansas City translator is 250 watts at 1148' HAAT. That's essentially a good Class A and maybe even
better than a good Class A. And you're right, the terrain helps them just as it somewhat hinders WAMO/W261AX
here.

C.
 
cingram said:
OhioMediaWatch said:
The best of these signals can be fairly equivalent to a Class A signal, especially in a flat area like KC. I suspect Pgh's terrain hampers whatever WAMO's 100.1 translator could do (maximum). But these things can be as much as 250 watts at NO height limit, if the engineering can fit it in.
Click to expand...

The 102.5 Kansas City translator is 250 watts at 1148' HAAT. That's essentially a good Class A and maybe even
better than a good Class A. And you're right, the terrain helps them just as it somewhat hinders WAMO/W261AX
here.

C.
Click to expand...

WLSW is only 781 feet HAAT at 320 watts. If you took of 70 watts to make it 250 there wouldn't be much difference.

It's ironic that what was meant to be a 2nd class service can compete with full power signals in some markets. That wasn't the original intent.
 
FreddyE1977 said:
When it was tried in the suburban D.C. market back in the 80's it only lasted a few months.
Click to expand...

These comedy stations have mostly been on flagging AMs. Not far from here, the current WYCL/1540 Niles OH was running the format as WFNE "Funny 1540", and it's a 500 watt daytimer.

I don't think this one in KC wlll be a long-standing station...I'm just wondering when the novelty (ha, ha!) will wear off. How do you keep a comedy radio station fresh after the sampling ends?

1148' HAAT, Clarke? Wow, I didn't look.

I get the idea 100.1 gets out more than expected, but in a market where the terrain is so bad, one of the DTV outlets has to put a repeater just to reach parts of the immediate metro area, well...
 
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