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MAXIMUM AM FIDELITY-Copy of letter to the editor.

Re: MAXIMUM AM FIDELITY-Rich's reply.

> > HD digital radio is a digital disaster. The NRSC-5,
> iBiquity
> > digital system is seriously flawed, and should not be
> > allowed.
> >
> > HD digital radio is defective, and incompatable with
> analog
> > AM or FM.
>
>
> > Agreed, on AM. What are the "incompatabilities" concerning
> FM?? There are numerous HD FM stations in my market.....I've
> heard NO artifacts added to their analog signals and NO
> interference to adjacent channels.
>
>
> > -Rich
> >
> >

I do find it interesting that a good portion on the time, the people fighting IBOC are not "regular listeners" or broadcast engineers, but "audio purists". They are such a minority, that catering to them is, well, suicidal.

At any rate, it hasn't been proven to me that IBOC on FM is incompatible either. Being in Milwaukee, we are pretty much all closely spaced to Chicago. Several stations run IBOC on FM in either market, and I have yet to either hear problems for myself, or have a listener complain.

It seems that the ones who do complain are anti-IBOC people who know exactly what to listen for, and make it their passion to flood companies with mail as soon as a station lights up IBOC.

AM is a different issue altogether, I agree that it has problems.

I'd love to see the people here complaining about FM IBOC actually come up with some factual information to support their argument, such as getting a control group of everyday listeners, putting them in front of a tuner in an IBOC-heavy area, and seeing if they have issues. Then go out in the field with an Audimat and take a measurement where a station is getting "clobbered" by IBOC and tell me if the interference is in it's protected contour.

Really, that is the bottom line. I haven't seen anything but either anicdotal evidence or personal opinion when it comes to FM IBOC.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
Re: MAXIMUM AM FIDELITY-FM IBOC Jamming-Rich's reply.

SEE REPLY AT END!
> > > HD digital radio is a digital disaster. The NRSC-5,
> > iBiquity
> > > digital system is seriously flawed, and should not be
> > > allowed.
> > >
> > > HD digital radio is defective, and incompatable with
> > analog
> > > AM or FM.
> >
> >
> > > Agreed, on AM. What are the "incompatabilities"
> concerning
> > FM?? There are numerous HD FM stations in my
> market.....I've
> > heard NO artifacts added to their analog signals and NO
> > interference to adjacent channels.
> >
> >
> > > -Rich
> > >
> > >
>
> I do find it interesting that a good portion on the time,
> the people fighting IBOC are not "regular listeners" or
> broadcast engineers, but "audio purists". They are such a
> minority, that catering to them is, well, suicidal.
>
> At any rate, it hasn't been proven to me that IBOC on FM is
> incompatible either. Being in Milwaukee, we are pretty much
> all closely spaced to Chicago. Several stations run IBOC on
> FM in either market, and I have yet to either hear problems
> for myself, or have a listener complain.
>
> It seems that the ones who do complain are anti-IBOC people
> who know exactly what to listen for, and make it their
> passion to flood companies with mail as soon as a station
> lights up IBOC.
>
> AM is a different issue altogether, I agree that it has
> problems.
>
> I'd love to see the people here complaining about FM IBOC
> actually come up with some factual information to support
> their argument, such as getting a control group of everyday
> listeners, putting them in front of a tuner in an IBOC-heavy
> area, and seeing if they have issues. Then go out in the
> field with an Audimat and take a measurement where a station
> is getting "clobbered" by IBOC and tell me if the
> interference is in it's protected contour.
>
> Really, that is the bottom line. I haven't seen anything
> but either anicdotal evidence or personal opinion when it
> comes to FM IBOC.
>
The "bottom line" as you say, is there is absolute proof that FM IBOC iBiquity jamms other assigned, licensed FM stations in large Metro areas.
There are 100 FM channels, and each FM IBOC station needs at least 4 (if not 5) channel spacing. Simple math will tell you that about only about 25 stations that can be accomodated, and no more then 5 of those can be in the educational band.
Here in Philadelphia, before IBOC, about 45 FM stations could be recieved on any decent FM car radio. Because of FM IBOC several popular nearby stations have already been jammed. As more IBOC FM stations take to the air, the number of available stations will drop to about half the number currently available!
In addition, IBOC FM stations on 88.1 and 107.9 will have powerful out of band jamming emissions, interfering with Channel 6 TV and aircraft bands.
Nearby, popular, suburban stations are already jammed, and it will only get worse.
The northeast corridor is almost one continuous city and suburb. The Philadelphia Metro Arbitron includes popular suburban stations transmitting only 2 channels apart from Philadelphia stations. The suburbs are being made an "interference zone" where powerful digital IBOC signals will overlap and interfere.
Locally the 20 channel wide "educational" part of the band here is occupied by more then 10 stations!
FM digital radio, IBOC, iBiquity, is totally incompatible with the current channel assignments, and therefore should be banned and scrapped in favor of a compatible system that does not jamm other licensed stations. One strong possibility is FMeXtra.
 
Re: MAXIMUM AM FIDELITY-FM IBOC Jamming-Rich's reply.

> SEE REPLY AT END!
> > > > HD digital radio is a digital disaster. The NRSC-5,
> > > iBiquity
> > > > digital system is seriously flawed, and should not be
> > > > allowed.
> > > >
> > > > HD digital radio is defective, and incompatable with
> > > analog
> > > > AM or FM.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Agreed, on AM. What are the "incompatabilities"
> > concerning
> > > FM?? There are numerous HD FM stations in my
> > market.....I've
> > > heard NO artifacts added to their analog signals and NO
> > > interference to adjacent channels.
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Rich
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > I do find it interesting that a good portion on the time,
> > the people fighting IBOC are not "regular listeners" or
> > broadcast engineers, but "audio purists". They are such a
>
> > minority, that catering to them is, well, suicidal.
> >
> > At any rate, it hasn't been proven to me that IBOC on FM
> is
> > incompatible either. Being in Milwaukee, we are pretty
> much
> > all closely spaced to Chicago. Several stations run IBOC
> on
> > FM in either market, and I have yet to either hear
> problems
> > for myself, or have a listener complain.
> >
> > It seems that the ones who do complain are anti-IBOC
> people
> > who know exactly what to listen for, and make it their
> > passion to flood companies with mail as soon as a station
> > lights up IBOC.
> >
> > AM is a different issue altogether, I agree that it has
> > problems.
> >
> > I'd love to see the people here complaining about FM IBOC
> > actually come up with some factual information to support
> > their argument, such as getting a control group of
> everyday
> > listeners, putting them in front of a tuner in an
> IBOC-heavy
> > area, and seeing if they have issues. Then go out in the
> > field with an Audimat and take a measurement where a
> station
> > is getting "clobbered" by IBOC and tell me if the
> > interference is in it's protected contour.
> >
> > Really, that is the bottom line. I haven't seen anything
> > but either anicdotal evidence or personal opinion when it
> > comes to FM IBOC.
> >
> The "bottom line" as you say, is there is absolute proof
> that FM IBOC iBiquity jamms other assigned, licensed FM
> stations in large Metro areas.


Huuuuhhhhhh???? "Absolute" proof???? "Jamming" other FCC licensed
FM stations, in large metro areas???? Please.....present your "proof."



> There are 100 FM channels, and each FM IBOC station needs at
> least 4 (if not 5) channel spacing. Simple math will tell
> you that about only about 25 stations that can be
> accomodated, and no more then 5 of those can be in the
> educational band.

Again, Rich..... IBOC fits the spectral mask. The FCC would not permit even testing otherwise. Do you argue that you know something the FCC does not? Are you prepared to present spectrum analyzer produced documents/graphs/pictures? Or is it more anecdotal musings......
In a properly installed and engineered system, IBOC fits! It uses the "guard bands, the 25 khz on each side, but is does fit.
An inferior receiver may have some issues.....again, the fault of the receiver, not the broadcast signal.

> Here in Philadelphia, before IBOC, about 45 FM stations
> could be recieved on any decent FM car radio. Because of FM
> IBOC several popular nearby stations have already been
> jammed. As more IBOC FM stations take to the air, the number
> of available stations will drop to about half the number
> currently available!
> In addition, IBOC FM stations on 88.1 and 107.9 will have
> powerful out of band jamming emissions, interfering with
> Channel 6 TV and aircraft bands.
> Nearby, popular, suburban stations are already jammed, and
> it will only get worse.
> The northeast corridor is almost one continuous city and
> suburb. The Philadelphia Metro Arbitron includes popular
> suburban stations transmitting only 2 channels apart from
> Philadelphia stations. The suburbs are being made an
> "interference zone" where powerful digital IBOC signals will
> overlap and interfere.

You are talking about signals in the single digit MICROVOLT range. 20 years ago, you could not even HEAR them on the average radio. These stations are being received OUT of their protected contours.
It's ridiculous to expect reliable reception when signals get this small. Show me any station being CONSISTANTLY wiped off the dial in their 54db contour.


> Locally the 20 channel wide "educational" part of the band
> here is occupied by more then 10 stations!
> FM digital radio, IBOC, iBiquity, is totally incompatible
> with the current channel assignments, and therefore should
> be banned and scrapped in favor of a compatible system that
> does not jamm other licensed stations. One strong
> possibility is FMeXtra.
>
Ah.....a Leonard Kahn disciple! (FMeXtra is Kahn's "solution" for FM)Why don't you just come out and say you like his, or any other, system better without all the misinformation. Your talking to broadcast engineers here....not a bunch of sales managers.
Get out your spectrum analyzer, make some measurements, and post your results. If you can prove IBOC pollutes spectrum outside a 200 khz channel, I will join your crusade.
I think what you are seeing is receiver front end overload, which is common in major cities. Improperly designed RF sections in cheap radios have long been a problem.
 
Re: MAXIMUM AM FIDELITY-FM IBOC Jamming-Rich's reply.

> You are talking about signals in the single digit MICROVOLT
> range. 20 years ago, you could not even HEAR them on the
> average radio. These stations are being received OUT of
> their protected contours.
> It's ridiculous to expect reliable reception when signals
> get this small. Show me any station being CONSISTANTLY wiped
> off the dial in their 54db contour.
>
I'll be the first to agree that IBOC fits within a station's protected contour. Therein lies the problem. Most stations have significant listenership well beyond their protected contours. This is especially true in the case of car radios, which happens to be where most people listen to the radio. These days, most car radios work reasonably well to nearly the 40 db contour. That is a lot of territory to give up because your adjacent channel neighbor switches on his IBOC signal.

In the case of some grandfathered short spaced stations, the situation is much worse. They will receive interference within their protected contours. I'm not sure how the Commission is going to handle that, but I predict some communications attorneys will do nicely from the argument.
 
Re: MAXIMUM AM FIDELITY-FM IBOC Jamming-Rich's reply.

> > You are talking about signals in the single digit
> MICROVOLT
> > range. 20 years ago, you could not even HEAR them on the
> > average radio. These stations are being received OUT of
> > their protected contours.
> > It's ridiculous to expect reliable reception when signals
> > get this small. Show me any station being CONSISTANTLY
> wiped
> > off the dial in their 54db contour.
> >
> I'll be the first to agree that IBOC fits within a station's
> protected contour. Therein lies the problem. Most stations
> have significant listenership well beyond their protected
> contours. This is especially true in the case of car
> radios, which happens to be where most people listen to the
> radio. These days, most car radios work reasonably well to
> nearly the 40 db contour. That is a lot of territory to
> give up because your adjacent channel neighbor switches on
> his IBOC signal.
>
> In the case of some grandfathered short spaced stations, the
> situation is much worse. They will receive interference
> within their protected contours. I'm not sure how the
> Commission is going to handle that, but I predict some
> communications attorneys will do nicely from the argument.
>
You make good points here. But the FCC must draw the line somewhere concerning interference.....where do you stop "protecting" a station's signal?
The rules were made years ago and equipment performance has made huge improvements.FM tuner front ends are in an IC package theses days and can work with signals down in the single microvolt range.That was not possible when the rules were written.
 
Re: MAXIMUM AM FIDELITY-FM IBOC Jamming-Rich's 2nd reply.

FMeXtra has nothing to do with Leonard Kahn.
The rest of your statements also proove you have been misinformed.
HD digital IBOC uses over 400kHz of bandwidth and interferes with other stations, is a seriously flawed system with far more defects and disadvantages then benefits.
Here are the independently tested spectrum analyzer results you requested as PROOF POSITIVE!
The links are here:
http://users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm
http://www.radio-info.com/mods/board?Post=628373&Board=engineering
http://worldsupercaster.blogspot.com

Glad you are joining us in fighting the misrepresented, defective, destructive, and fraudulent HD digital radio cartel/conglomerate's propaganda.


> > SEE REPLY AT END!
> > > > > HD digital radio is a digital disaster. The NRSC-5,
> > > > iBiquity
> > > > > digital system is seriously flawed, and should not
> be
> > > > > allowed.
> > > > >
> > > > > HD digital radio is defective, and incompatable with
>
> > > > analog
> > > > > AM or FM.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Agreed, on AM. What are the "incompatabilities"
> > > concerning
> > > > FM?? There are numerous HD FM stations in my
> > > market.....I've
> > > > heard NO artifacts added to their analog signals and
> NO
> > > > interference to adjacent channels.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -Rich
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > I do find it interesting that a good portion on the
> time,
> > > the people fighting IBOC are not "regular listeners" or
> > > broadcast engineers, but "audio purists". They are such
> a
> >
> > > minority, that catering to them is, well, suicidal.
> > >
> > > At any rate, it hasn't been proven to me that IBOC on FM
>
> > is
> > > incompatible either. Being in Milwaukee, we are pretty
> > much
> > > all closely spaced to Chicago. Several stations run
> IBOC
> > on
> > > FM in either market, and I have yet to either hear
> > problems
> > > for myself, or have a listener complain.
> > >
> > > It seems that the ones who do complain are anti-IBOC
> > people
> > > who know exactly what to listen for, and make it their
> > > passion to flood companies with mail as soon as a
> station
> > > lights up IBOC.
> > >
> > > AM is a different issue altogether, I agree that it has
> > > problems.
> > >
> > > I'd love to see the people here complaining about FM
> IBOC
> > > actually come up with some factual information to
> support
> > > their argument, such as getting a control group of
> > everyday
> > > listeners, putting them in front of a tuner in an
> > IBOC-heavy
> > > area, and seeing if they have issues. Then go out in
> the
> > > field with an Audimat and take a measurement where a
> > station
> > > is getting "clobbered" by IBOC and tell me if the
> > > interference is in it's protected contour.
> > >
> > > Really, that is the bottom line. I haven't seen
> anything
> > > but either anicdotal evidence or personal opinion when
> it
> > > comes to FM IBOC.
> > >
> > The "bottom line" as you say, is there is absolute proof
> > that FM IBOC iBiquity jamms other assigned, licensed FM
> > stations in large Metro areas.
>
>
> Huuuuhhhhhh???? "Absolute" proof???? "Jamming" other FCC
> licensed
> FM stations, in large metro areas???? Please.....present
> your "proof."
>
>
>
> > There are 100 FM channels, and each FM IBOC station needs
> at
> > least 4 (if not 5) channel spacing. Simple math will tell
> > you that about only about 25 stations that can be
> > accomodated, and no more then 5 of those can be in the
> > educational band.
>
> Again, Rich..... IBOC fits the spectral mask. The FCC would
> not permit even testing otherwise. Do you argue that you
> know something the FCC does not? Are you prepared to present
> spectrum analyzer produced documents/graphs/pictures? Or is
> it more anecdotal musings......
> In a properly installed and engineered system, IBOC fits! It
> uses the "guard bands, the 25 khz on each side, but is does
> fit.
> An inferior receiver may have some issues.....again, the
> fault of the receiver, not the broadcast signal.
>
> > Here in Philadelphia, before IBOC, about 45 FM stations
> > could be recieved on any decent FM car radio. Because of
> FM
> > IBOC several popular nearby stations have already been
> > jammed. As more IBOC FM stations take to the air, the
> number
> > of available stations will drop to about half the number
> > currently available!
> > In addition, IBOC FM stations on 88.1 and 107.9 will have
> > powerful out of band jamming emissions, interfering with
> > Channel 6 TV and aircraft bands.
> > Nearby, popular, suburban stations are already jammed, and
>
> > it will only get worse.
> > The northeast corridor is almost one continuous city and
> > suburb. The Philadelphia Metro Arbitron includes popular
> > suburban stations transmitting only 2 channels apart from
> > Philadelphia stations. The suburbs are being made an
> > "interference zone" where powerful digital IBOC signals
> will
> > overlap and interfere.
>
> You are talking about signals in the single digit MICROVOLT
> range. 20 years ago, you could not even HEAR them on the
> average radio. These stations are being received OUT of
> their protected contours.
> It's ridiculous to expect reliable reception when signals
> get this small. Show me any station being CONSISTANTLY wiped
> off the dial in their 54db contour.
>
>
> > Locally the 20 channel wide "educational" part of the band
>
> > here is occupied by more then 10 stations!
> > FM digital radio, IBOC, iBiquity, is totally incompatible
> > with the current channel assignments, and therefore should
>
> > be banned and scrapped in favor of a compatible system
> that
> > does not jamm other licensed stations. One strong
> > possibility is FMeXtra.
> >
> Ah.....a Leonard Kahn disciple! (FMeXtra is Kahn's
> "solution" for FM)Why don't you just come out and say you
> like his, or any other, system better without all the
> misinformation. Your talking to broadcast engineers
> here....not a bunch of sales managers.
> Get out your spectrum analyzer, make some measurements, and
> post your results. If you can prove IBOC pollutes spectrum
> outside a 200 khz channel, I will join your crusade.
> I think what you are seeing is receiver front end overload,
> which is common in major cities. Improperly designed RF
> sections in cheap radios have long been a problem.
>
 
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