..but I've always wondered this. What is the method used for a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast. I've been told its through a digital phone line from the club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late 80s? Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Maybe an engineer can explain this....
- Thread starter rageradio
- Start date
R
Radio-X
Guest
> ..but I've always wondered this. What is the method used for
> a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
> method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late 80s?
> Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
>
Well, a lot of stations do use a "hot box", which is what I think you mean by a "digital phone line" It's a machine that makes a conversation over a phone comparable to a 64k mp3 file...
Some may use a Marti transmitter, if they are less than 10 miles away from the station...
(P.S: I am not an engineer, just know a good bit about a small-market broadcast studio)<P ID="signature">______________
If a DJ talks into a microphone, and no one's there to listen to him, does he make a noise?</P>
> a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
> method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late 80s?
> Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
>
Well, a lot of stations do use a "hot box", which is what I think you mean by a "digital phone line" It's a machine that makes a conversation over a phone comparable to a 64k mp3 file...
Some may use a Marti transmitter, if they are less than 10 miles away from the station...
(P.S: I am not an engineer, just know a good bit about a small-market broadcast studio)<P ID="signature">______________
If a DJ talks into a microphone, and no one's there to listen to him, does he make a noise?</P>
> ..but I've always wondered this. What is the method used for
> a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
> method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late 80s?
> Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
>
Back in the late 80's, it was probably a 15k equalized loop line from the phone company. Analog, but it passed 15k worth of audio (roughly the bandwith of FM radio). Telephone loops were also used as a backup to microwave Studio to Transmitter Links. These lines still exist, but good luck finding anyone with the phone company who knows how to set one up. They're dying off.
If all else failed, you'd do a Marti shot (microwave transmitter around 450 Mhz) but those are mono only and voice quality only for FM. Stations still use Marti's today for voice remotes... but you wouldn't want to put music on it unless everything else didn't work.
Today you use an audio codec with an ISDN line for a club remote, although that technology's days are numbered. It's probably all going IP at some point... but pretty much every club remote done today is over ISDN.
There are also codecs that run on a standard phone line, but they're not stable enough to do a club remote on them. They're great for voice, but if the line isn't perfect, the quality will start sounding like a bad internet stream until it drops the line and redials - just like your computer will doing dialup internet. You wouldn't want to do a club remote on that.<P ID="signature">______________
...co-moderator of the Satellite Radio, Phoenix, and San Diego boards...</P>
> a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
> method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late 80s?
> Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
>
Back in the late 80's, it was probably a 15k equalized loop line from the phone company. Analog, but it passed 15k worth of audio (roughly the bandwith of FM radio). Telephone loops were also used as a backup to microwave Studio to Transmitter Links. These lines still exist, but good luck finding anyone with the phone company who knows how to set one up. They're dying off.
If all else failed, you'd do a Marti shot (microwave transmitter around 450 Mhz) but those are mono only and voice quality only for FM. Stations still use Marti's today for voice remotes... but you wouldn't want to put music on it unless everything else didn't work.
Today you use an audio codec with an ISDN line for a club remote, although that technology's days are numbered. It's probably all going IP at some point... but pretty much every club remote done today is over ISDN.
There are also codecs that run on a standard phone line, but they're not stable enough to do a club remote on them. They're great for voice, but if the line isn't perfect, the quality will start sounding like a bad internet stream until it drops the line and redials - just like your computer will doing dialup internet. You wouldn't want to do a club remote on that.<P ID="signature">______________
...co-moderator of the Satellite Radio, Phoenix, and San Diego boards...</P>
> > ..but I've always wondered this. What is the method used
> for
> > a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> > I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> > club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
>
> > method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late
> 80s?
> > Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
> >
>
> Back in the late 80's, it was probably a 15k equalized loop
> line from the phone company. Analog, but it passed 15k
> worth of audio (roughly the bandwith of FM radio).
> Telephone loops were also used as a backup to microwave
> Studio to Transmitter Links. These lines still exist, but
> good luck finding anyone with the phone company who knows
> how to set one up. They're dying off.
>
> If all else failed, you'd do a Marti shot (microwave
> transmitter around 450 Mhz) but those are mono only and
> voice quality only for FM. Stations still use Marti's today
> for voice remotes... but you wouldn't want to put music on
> it unless everything else didn't work.
>
> Today you use an audio codec with an ISDN line for a club
> remote, although that technology's days are numbered. It's
> probably all going IP at some point... but pretty much every
> club remote done today is over ISDN.
>
> There are also codecs that run on a standard phone line, but
> they're not stable enough to do a club remote on them.
> They're great for voice, but if the line isn't perfect, the
> quality will start sounding like a bad internet stream until
> it drops the line and redials - just like your computer will
> doing dialup internet. You wouldn't want to do a club
> remote on that.
Using the phone line method did it take two lines to produce stereo. One for the left and another for the right. The reason I ask is one night while listening to a broadcast on 93Q (This was back in early '91, I have this on tape by the way) the audio went mono you then hear ringing, it rings twice and the stereo comes back. Everytime I hear this tape I've wondered about that.
I've seen the ISDN "box" in the DJ booth at the Roxy. This was when 106.9 was doing Sunday nights there. It kinda looked like a stereo reciever. Wondered how it worked. It was obviously connected to one of the lineouts in the mixer.
Thanks for all the info guys. If anyone has more info I'd like to hear it. As I've said I've always wanted to know how this was done. Didn't occur to me until now to ask... this being the appropriate place to do it.
> for
> > a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> > I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> > club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
>
> > method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late
> 80s?
> > Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
> >
>
> Back in the late 80's, it was probably a 15k equalized loop
> line from the phone company. Analog, but it passed 15k
> worth of audio (roughly the bandwith of FM radio).
> Telephone loops were also used as a backup to microwave
> Studio to Transmitter Links. These lines still exist, but
> good luck finding anyone with the phone company who knows
> how to set one up. They're dying off.
>
> If all else failed, you'd do a Marti shot (microwave
> transmitter around 450 Mhz) but those are mono only and
> voice quality only for FM. Stations still use Marti's today
> for voice remotes... but you wouldn't want to put music on
> it unless everything else didn't work.
>
> Today you use an audio codec with an ISDN line for a club
> remote, although that technology's days are numbered. It's
> probably all going IP at some point... but pretty much every
> club remote done today is over ISDN.
>
> There are also codecs that run on a standard phone line, but
> they're not stable enough to do a club remote on them.
> They're great for voice, but if the line isn't perfect, the
> quality will start sounding like a bad internet stream until
> it drops the line and redials - just like your computer will
> doing dialup internet. You wouldn't want to do a club
> remote on that.
Using the phone line method did it take two lines to produce stereo. One for the left and another for the right. The reason I ask is one night while listening to a broadcast on 93Q (This was back in early '91, I have this on tape by the way) the audio went mono you then hear ringing, it rings twice and the stereo comes back. Everytime I hear this tape I've wondered about that.
I've seen the ISDN "box" in the DJ booth at the Roxy. This was when 106.9 was doing Sunday nights there. It kinda looked like a stereo reciever. Wondered how it worked. It was obviously connected to one of the lineouts in the mixer.
Thanks for all the info guys. If anyone has more info I'd like to hear it. As I've said I've always wanted to know how this was done. Didn't occur to me until now to ask... this being the appropriate place to do it.
http://www.telos-systems.com/?/zephyr/default.htm
and
http://www.telos-systems.com/?/techtalk/default.htm
will give you more than you want to know about the standard ISDN codec used by radio - the Zephyr and its descendants. Credit Telos for some excellent white papers. Wish more broadcast manufacturors would do the same.
Trivia time: besides "It Still Does Nothing" and "I Still Don't kNow", what does ISDN stand for?
> ..but I've always wondered this. What is the method used for
> a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
> method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late 80s?
> Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
>
and
http://www.telos-systems.com/?/techtalk/default.htm
will give you more than you want to know about the standard ISDN codec used by radio - the Zephyr and its descendants. Credit Telos for some excellent white papers. Wish more broadcast manufacturors would do the same.
Trivia time: besides "It Still Does Nothing" and "I Still Don't kNow", what does ISDN stand for?
> ..but I've always wondered this. What is the method used for
> a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
> method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late 80s?
> Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
>
> Using the phone line method did it take two lines to produce
> stereo. One for the left and another for the right. The
> reason I ask is one night while listening to a broadcast on
> 93Q (This was back in early '91, I have this on tape by the
> way) the audio went mono you then hear ringing, it rings
> twice and the stereo comes back. Everytime I hear this tape
> I've wondered about that.
Not sure. If it was a broadcast loop, it was a permanent link between the two points - there was nothing to dial on either end. You could end up getting junk on the line if someone in the phone company's central office accidentally patched into the wrong loop.
>
> I've seen the ISDN "box" in the DJ booth at the Roxy. This
> was when 106.9 was doing Sunday nights there. It kinda
> looked like a stereo reciever. Wondered how it worked. It
> was obviously connected to one of the lineouts in the mixer.
That's a Telos Zephyr. You plug in a feed from the mixer into the back of the unit along with an ISDN line, punch in the codes associated with the line, then dial the phone number of the Zephyr in the rack back at the station. The two boxes link up and you're ready to go on the air at whatever cents per minute SBC charges for ISDN.
Simplified explanation: the Zephyr at the club turns whatever you feed into it into MP3 data and the receiver decodes it and turns it into audio. There's about a half second delay from the audio going into the box and coming out on the other end in the studio.
You can send audio from the studio simultaneously back to the remote, although for the clubs it's easier to just count them down over a cell phone. (Also that way you don't have to factor in the transcoding delay.)<P ID="signature">______________
...co-moderator of the Satellite Radio, Phoenix, and San Diego boards...</P>
> stereo. One for the left and another for the right. The
> reason I ask is one night while listening to a broadcast on
> 93Q (This was back in early '91, I have this on tape by the
> way) the audio went mono you then hear ringing, it rings
> twice and the stereo comes back. Everytime I hear this tape
> I've wondered about that.
Not sure. If it was a broadcast loop, it was a permanent link between the two points - there was nothing to dial on either end. You could end up getting junk on the line if someone in the phone company's central office accidentally patched into the wrong loop.
>
> I've seen the ISDN "box" in the DJ booth at the Roxy. This
> was when 106.9 was doing Sunday nights there. It kinda
> looked like a stereo reciever. Wondered how it worked. It
> was obviously connected to one of the lineouts in the mixer.
That's a Telos Zephyr. You plug in a feed from the mixer into the back of the unit along with an ISDN line, punch in the codes associated with the line, then dial the phone number of the Zephyr in the rack back at the station. The two boxes link up and you're ready to go on the air at whatever cents per minute SBC charges for ISDN.
Simplified explanation: the Zephyr at the club turns whatever you feed into it into MP3 data and the receiver decodes it and turns it into audio. There's about a half second delay from the audio going into the box and coming out on the other end in the studio.
You can send audio from the studio simultaneously back to the remote, although for the clubs it's easier to just count them down over a cell phone. (Also that way you don't have to factor in the transcoding delay.)<P ID="signature">______________
...co-moderator of the Satellite Radio, Phoenix, and San Diego boards...</P>
> Trivia time: besides "It Still Does Nothing" and "I Still
> Don't kNow", what does ISDN stand for?
Integrated Services Digital Network
Okay, I had to google it.
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.ralphb.net/ISDN/defs.html>http://www.ralphb.net/ISDN/defs.html</a><P ID="signature">______________
...co-moderator of the Satellite Radio, Phoenix, and San Diego boards...</P>
> Don't kNow", what does ISDN stand for?
Integrated Services Digital Network
Okay, I had to google it.
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.ralphb.net/ISDN/defs.html>http://www.ralphb.net/ISDN/defs.html</a><P ID="signature">______________
...co-moderator of the Satellite Radio, Phoenix, and San Diego boards...</P>
C
CW
Guest
> ..but I've always wondered this. What is the method used for
> a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
> method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late 80s?
> Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
>
Since a lot of correct info has already been posted below by others, I just wanted add in on the last question..
ISDN itself has been around for 20 years or so...there are two flavors;
PRI or Primary Rate and BRI or Basic Rate...
Each uses the standard 64kb audio channels as does a channelized T1 ckt. (called the B or Bearer channel)
PRI has 23 B channels and one D or Data channel (basically its the same as a T1 but slot 24 on the PRI is used ONLY for data/call info; no voice..A T1 can be used for 24 channels voice or one big data pipe at 1.544 MB/s)...PRI is used primarily for PBX connections to the voice telephone network (most offices with caller ID and direct dialable numbers like hospitals, banks, the City of Houston, etc use PRI)
BRI is the flavor used by broadcasters AND is a smaller version of PRI..2 B channels and 1 D Channel...It WAS supposed to be the digital upgrade to the analog POTS (Plain old telephone service) you have now in your home...BUT BRI phones never caught on and BRI codec/modems for analog use were NOT cheap...until recently thanks to Ebay
A Cisco 800 BRI box originally sold for over $2000 but I bought one NEW off EBay still wrapped in plastic from the factory for $20!
BRI is only $55/month (on a 2 yr min contract) and gives you TWO separate B channels (or phone lines with different numbers) on ONE cable pair...
you can also use it to get online to the Internet (most ISPs support ISDN BRI dialup instead of going analog..why bother? This is PURE digital...for those who cannot get DSL or Cable, this is the most economical and fastest way to go if you dont want to spend the high fees for satellite and blows 56K analog modems out of the water)....In fact, you could order a BRI line, drop your current analog line and now for the price of two analog lines (actually less in some cases), you can have BRI into the house...online at 128kb both ways...BUT one difference...get an incoming call? No problem...drop down to 64KB data and take the voice call via the other B channel!! When you hang up, the BRI modem can auto reconnect and rebond the two channels for 128 KB again (called Dynamic Bonding)!! All in the background!! For those outside DSL/Cable areas, this is something to look at!!
I am setting my brother up in E TX with this....he can only get 26K on dailup..now he'll have 128KB online ALL the time...and still be able to take calls (ONLY issue is you NEED to have backup power for the ISDN modem...ehh its a minor one...oh and if you use an analog phone on the BRI modem...standard feature, you cannot get Call Waiting Caller ID...but a ISDN phone hooked straight to the ISDN line...no modem needed...will work with CWCID!)...
AND with ISDN, you can daisy chain devices....neat huh??
Pity Bell NEVER really pushed it....for all its features, it could be the home standard....Broadcasters use BRI with many different codecs..the Telos Zephyr is the most popular (another is the CDQ-x000 series with the ADTRAN ISU128 BRI modems)..and you can run one B channel for up to 10kHz mono or both B channels for up to 20 kHz stereo (both directions of course)...depending on the sampling speed and compression algorithym you chose (G.722 mono or MPEG layer 2 or layer 3), you DO have one minor issue...DELAY! anytime you digitize audio and squirt it down a less than full bandwidth path using compression, you get delay.....in some cases its 1-2 secs.....g.722 mono is very short...Layer 3 stereo or joint stereo is VERY delayed..which is why the jock will NOT listen to offair audio while on an ISDN remote (nor will the return audio back to them have HIS/her own audio in it...talk about mess with your brain!)...
BRI can be installed in most places that a 2w analog line can go...only ONE central office handles BRI for a given area...in Houston, its the downtown or Capitol CO...in E Texas, its the downtown Beaumont CO...which means my brother in E TX will get a BMT number on his ISDN line...but since BMT is local to him anyway, no big deal (but confuses the neighbors
BTW, last analog stereo pair installed in Houston?? KQQK about 2 years ago for broadcast from the club "2000"?? on 59 North. SBC took over 3 weeks to get it in because NONE of the techs had ever installed an ANALOG pair before (youngsters who only worked on digital ckts)...they even got it out of phase when it was done (fixed at the studio end by rolling + and - on one pair...) Cost was about 1200 to install and 400+ a month....and only one way...but Liberman didnt want to buy the club a Zephyr (about 2500-3000 or so) which would have made things SOOO much easier...I think the club dropped the broadcast after about 3-4 months because of the costs.
> a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
> method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late 80s?
> Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
>
Since a lot of correct info has already been posted below by others, I just wanted add in on the last question..
ISDN itself has been around for 20 years or so...there are two flavors;
PRI or Primary Rate and BRI or Basic Rate...
Each uses the standard 64kb audio channels as does a channelized T1 ckt. (called the B or Bearer channel)
PRI has 23 B channels and one D or Data channel (basically its the same as a T1 but slot 24 on the PRI is used ONLY for data/call info; no voice..A T1 can be used for 24 channels voice or one big data pipe at 1.544 MB/s)...PRI is used primarily for PBX connections to the voice telephone network (most offices with caller ID and direct dialable numbers like hospitals, banks, the City of Houston, etc use PRI)
BRI is the flavor used by broadcasters AND is a smaller version of PRI..2 B channels and 1 D Channel...It WAS supposed to be the digital upgrade to the analog POTS (Plain old telephone service) you have now in your home...BUT BRI phones never caught on and BRI codec/modems for analog use were NOT cheap...until recently thanks to Ebay
A Cisco 800 BRI box originally sold for over $2000 but I bought one NEW off EBay still wrapped in plastic from the factory for $20!BRI is only $55/month (on a 2 yr min contract) and gives you TWO separate B channels (or phone lines with different numbers) on ONE cable pair...
you can also use it to get online to the Internet (most ISPs support ISDN BRI dialup instead of going analog..why bother? This is PURE digital...for those who cannot get DSL or Cable, this is the most economical and fastest way to go if you dont want to spend the high fees for satellite and blows 56K analog modems out of the water)....In fact, you could order a BRI line, drop your current analog line and now for the price of two analog lines (actually less in some cases), you can have BRI into the house...online at 128kb both ways...BUT one difference...get an incoming call? No problem...drop down to 64KB data and take the voice call via the other B channel!! When you hang up, the BRI modem can auto reconnect and rebond the two channels for 128 KB again (called Dynamic Bonding)!! All in the background!! For those outside DSL/Cable areas, this is something to look at!!
I am setting my brother up in E TX with this....he can only get 26K on dailup..now he'll have 128KB online ALL the time...and still be able to take calls (ONLY issue is you NEED to have backup power for the ISDN modem...ehh its a minor one...oh and if you use an analog phone on the BRI modem...standard feature, you cannot get Call Waiting Caller ID...but a ISDN phone hooked straight to the ISDN line...no modem needed...will work with CWCID!)...
AND with ISDN, you can daisy chain devices....neat huh??
Pity Bell NEVER really pushed it....for all its features, it could be the home standard....Broadcasters use BRI with many different codecs..the Telos Zephyr is the most popular (another is the CDQ-x000 series with the ADTRAN ISU128 BRI modems)..and you can run one B channel for up to 10kHz mono or both B channels for up to 20 kHz stereo (both directions of course)...depending on the sampling speed and compression algorithym you chose (G.722 mono or MPEG layer 2 or layer 3), you DO have one minor issue...DELAY! anytime you digitize audio and squirt it down a less than full bandwidth path using compression, you get delay.....in some cases its 1-2 secs.....g.722 mono is very short...Layer 3 stereo or joint stereo is VERY delayed..which is why the jock will NOT listen to offair audio while on an ISDN remote (nor will the return audio back to them have HIS/her own audio in it...talk about mess with your brain!)...
BRI can be installed in most places that a 2w analog line can go...only ONE central office handles BRI for a given area...in Houston, its the downtown or Capitol CO...in E Texas, its the downtown Beaumont CO...which means my brother in E TX will get a BMT number on his ISDN line...but since BMT is local to him anyway, no big deal (but confuses the neighbors
BTW, last analog stereo pair installed in Houston?? KQQK about 2 years ago for broadcast from the club "2000"?? on 59 North. SBC took over 3 weeks to get it in because NONE of the techs had ever installed an ANALOG pair before (youngsters who only worked on digital ckts)...they even got it out of phase when it was done (fixed at the studio end by rolling + and - on one pair...) Cost was about 1200 to install and 400+ a month....and only one way...but Liberman didnt want to buy the club a Zephyr (about 2500-3000 or so) which would have made things SOOO much easier...I think the club dropped the broadcast after about 3-4 months because of the costs.
S
sportzguy
Guest
Hey,
If I asked you what time it was, would you tell me how to build a watch?>
If I asked you what time it was, would you tell me how to build a watch?>
Depends. What time zone? Daylight or Non-advanced? Julian, Universal or Dog_Year_Time?
> > ..but I've always wondered this. What is the method used
> for
> > a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> > I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> > club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
>
> > method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late
> 80s?
> > Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
> >
>
> Well, a lot of stations do use a "hot box", which is what I
> think you mean by a "digital phone line" It's a machine that
> makes a conversation over a phone comparable to a 64k mp3
> file...
>
> Some may use a Marti transmitter, if they are less than 10
> miles away from the station...
>
> (P.S: I am not an engineer, just know a good bit about a
> small-market broadcast studio)
>
Thanks for all the info guys. This was more than I expected.
> for
> > a radio station to hook into a club for a live broadcast.
> > I've been told its through a digital phone line from the
> > club to the station. Ok that tells me alot. If this is the
>
> > method then how were 93Q and KRBE doing it in the late
> 80s?
> > Was this "digital phone line" technology around then?
> >
>
> Well, a lot of stations do use a "hot box", which is what I
> think you mean by a "digital phone line" It's a machine that
> makes a conversation over a phone comparable to a 64k mp3
> file...
>
> Some may use a Marti transmitter, if they are less than 10
> miles away from the station...
>
> (P.S: I am not an engineer, just know a good bit about a
> small-market broadcast studio)
>
Thanks for all the info guys. This was more than I expected.
- Status