Maybe it's finally time for WPEN to...

[talkjim]

With WPEN ailing, there is always the progressive talk option--in spite of all the industry cynicism, certain undisputable facts speak for themselves:

1) Perhaps the single most compelling progressive talk success statistic is the victory of Air America's afternoon hostess, Randi Rhodes,over Sean Hannity, in men, 25-54, in the fall 2005 New York ARB (one of the last books for Air America on the 10,000 watt WLIB, before AA programming moved to the lesser-powered WWRL). Don't ask me why AA never bothered to promote this, or use it as a recruitment tool to attract new affiliates, but the fact is--IT HAPPENED.

2) During that same book, radio neophyte Al Franken topped Bill O' Reilly on WOR during their one overlapping hour, by a margin of 2.3-2.1 in persons 12 plus, and during that same hour, Franken beat O'Reilly 2.3-.8 in adults 25-54.

3) In Chicago, progressive WCPT 820 AM currently makes a considerable showing, under severely limited circumstances. It's a daytimer, with no pre-sunrise authorization, and is a suburban-based signal. Yet in one recent arbitrend, it was good for a .8 (12 plus)--not far at all from the 1.1 achieved by full-power CBS-owned FM talker WCKG, which at the time was airing the "Free FM" format, anchored by market legend Steve Dahl.

4) In the recent winter ratings in Portland, Oregon, the only news/talk station to show up in the Top 10 among 25-54 was Clear Channel's progressive talk, KPOJ.

5) In Miami, morning drive at CC's progressive talk WINZ has just topped morning drive at sister conservative talk WIOD in the core talk demo--men, 25-54, and is right behind WIOD in total adults, 25-54.

Maybe it's time for some creative thinking in this ailing business...instead of the same-old same old. After all, one definition of insanity is repeating the same failed strategy again and again.

 

[Rockin Rob]

It failed before, it will fail again. Just like dance. It'll be stinko numbers, which will turn into stinko revenue, then they're right back in the same rut. Besides, don't you get enough Obama worship from CNN and MSNBC?

 

[talkjim]

With all due respect, your argument doesn't add up. What failed in the Philadelphia market was seven daily hours of Air America programming (Franken and Rhodes) on 1340 WHAT, which as we all know, was a very limited signal. I'll acknowledge failure if there is a fair test, which progressive talk programming has never had in Philadelphia. And even though Rhodes topped Hannity in New York, prog talk never had a truly fair test in that market either. WLIB simply carried the Air America feed--there was no local content, hardly anything in the way of services, and virtually no sense of any "stationality". And I'll also acknowledge that aside from Rhodes, the shows were fairly horrible--but four years down the road, the syndicated progressive talk product is of much higher quality, and is hosted by radio veterans.

The irony is that while progressive radio content is much stronger now than when it launched four years ago, it's being ignored by much of the industry--largely because of the failed launch of Air America.

 

[Starbucks]

It shows you how bad the liberal agenda is? Let alone the failure of progressive talk (as you call it....I call it fallen behind) even Randi Rhodes and AA can't get along. She was the only thing that had any clout for the network and it just shows how restrictive in free speech the liberals are. Even she can't say anything. Well.....good...there's an example...you got poisoned by your own medicine. Next.......

 

[talkjim]

Argue with me if you like, but don't misstate the facts. Progressive Talk has not failed (see specific examples in my above post). What failed was the first incarnation of Air America. Rhodes has not failed either--she is now syndicated by the Nova M Radio Network on a number of big signals around the nation--WINZ/Miami, KPOJ/Portland, KPTK/Seatle, KKZN/Denver-Boulder--just to name a few. And since no one seems to remember it, I will point out again that in one of her last books on the 10,000 watt WLIB/New York she topped Sean Hannity in Men 25-54. If that's failure, I'd sure like to have some of it.

 

[Starbucks]

I'm not talking about her failing...I was referring to liberal radio period. The Fair Doctrine act? Like I mentioned before...even she has to look around herself within her own agenda.
And YES...Liberal radio is a failure. Mario, Jessie, Jerry,Alan , etc...they all bombed. Yes , just a few markets I'm aware....New York and W. Palm Beach. Been to both cities where there were any victories of the left (just a fraction) ....and that's a fraction of the US. ....and yes I'm aware of what kind of people living their and it only goes to figure why. Take Phoenix, Des Moines, Chicago....and out of all places the Bay Area....and it's Air Ameriwhat? Randi What ratings? Jerry Browne couldn't be picked up in his own market where he was broadcasting out of.
It doesn't matter how good the entertainment becomes....and I heard that before...most people don't want to hear what's published in the newspaper. You mind as well get your information from MTV.

 

[clouseau]

Jim,

You are an eloquent salesperson. Frankly, if I didn't klnow any better, I'D believe what you propose is a good idea. I do not think that would be a good programming idea, though.

Let's see...

With WPEN ailing, there is always the progressive talk option--in spite of all the industry cynicism, certain undisputable facts speak for themselves:

1) Perhaps the single most compelling progressive talk success statistic is the victory of Air America's afternoon hostess, Randi Rhodes,over Sean Hannity, in men, 25-54, in the fall 2005 New York ARB (one of the last books for Air America on the 10,000 watt WLIB, before AA programming moved to the lesser-powered WWRL). Don't ask me why AA never bothered to promote this, or use it as a recruitment tool to attract new affiliates, but the fact is--IT HAPPENED.

Ratings anomolies happen. Assuming you are correct here. I don't have those numbers. I'll take you at your word. One book one time in one market doesn't make for good sales. I would suspect Air America could attest to that.

2) During that same book, radio neophyte Al Franken topped Bill O' Reilly on WOR during their one overlapping hour, by a margin of 2.3-2.1 in persons 12 plus, and during that same hour, Franken beat O'Reilly 2.3-.8 in adults 25-54.

In 2005, can you say "Diary Placement"? Me too. Again assuming these are correct, one book does not a success make. It's going to be almost impossible to sell this type of a format with 2nd to third tier numbers.

3) In Chicago, progressive WCPT 820 AM currently makes a considerable showing, under severely limited circumstances. It's a daytimer, with no pre-sunrise authorization, and is a suburban-based signal. Yet in one recent arbitrend, it was good for a .8 (12 plus)--not far at all from the 1.1 achieved by full-power CBS-owned FM talker WCKG, which at the time was airing the "Free FM" format, anchored by market legend Steve Dahl.

Wow. All true and VERY carefully crafted. 'CKG was killed and put out of our misery long ago. I have 'CPT currently at a .9 12+. That's good for 30th in a ranker. I guess it beats the 31st of 'PEN in Phila. I'd hate to try and sell it though.

4) In the recent winter ratings in Portland, Oregon, the only news/talk station to show up in the Top 10 among 25-54 was Clear Channel's progressive talk, KPOJ.

No doubt Prg Talk does well in Portland. KPOJ has been the poster child for the format since.... well ever. I don't question you, but the 12+ don't bear this out.

5) In Miami, morning drive at CC's progressive talk WINZ has just topped morning drive at sister conservative talk WIOD in the core talk demo--men, 25-54, and is right behind WIOD in total adults, 25-54.

There are sales "Talking points" like these all over. However prog talk is a horrible seller. The "Power" factor, or ability to convert ratings to cash just suck in that format. Unlike Sports Talk, in which a #18 station 12+ (WFAN) can still be a top 10 biller NATIONALLY. Your contention that WHAT is not a legitamate affiliate is valid, though. But IMHO, Greater Media is better off trying to fix what they have.

Maybe it's time for some creative thinking in this ailing business...instead of the same-old same old. After all, one definition of insanity is repeating the same failed strategy again and again.

Yet people keep buying the Air America network. Amazing.

Clouseau

 

[talkjim]

"You are an eloquent salesperson. Frankly, if I didn't klnow any better, I'D believe what you propose is a good idea. I do not think that would be a good programming idea, though."

Clouseau,

You are quite eloquent yourself, and you make some interesting points. But they also require a response. The ratings number on the Rhodes victory over Hannity in New York is accurate--it's documentable with Arbitron. And perhaps it is an "anamoly" as you put it. But in any case, it took Randi less than a year to pull off this "anamoly" on a much-less established radio station than the one Hannity's on, and with much less promotional support, and without a nightly television show to help promote the radio show. She also didn't have an opportunity to repeat this "anamoly", as I suspect she would have, because it was the last major ratings book before Air America left WLIB in New York for the weaker WWRL.

I also suspect that if I came on this board and announced that Rush Limbaugh won his daypart in every major market in America, (which by the way is a long way from reality), there would be few willing to question such a statement, but if I simply report the verifiable fact that Randi topped Hannity in the winter 2005 New York ARB (again I'm referring to the core talk demo of 25-54 men), the doubters quickly emerge, and I get hit with all kinds of speculation about "anamolies" and diary placement.

I agree with you that I would not want to try to sell spots for WCPT in Chicago, but that wasn't my point in the first place. The point is that we have a situation in Chicago in which a lower-power progressive talk AM station without pre-sunrise authorization came close to tying a full-power CBS-owned FM talk station anchored by Steve Dahl--a nationally known broadcast legend. And by your own acknowledgement, the rating of WCPT has improved a bit sense. That to me, and others, says something about the viability of progressive talk--even under adverse circumstances.

Thanks for your acknowledgement of the fact that KPOJ is the "poster child" for progressive talk. It was in fact the first station to go all-progressive talk. But there are other poster children as well--I listed them above in my first post.

You say prog talk is a "horrible seller" without any elaboration. I know for a fact that that is not the case at all in a number of situations--Portland and Miami are two examples. And in cases in which the format has ratings and is not selling--I would have to question the competence of the sales staff--after all, I know from personal experience that if the shoe were on the other foot, the sales staff would likely be questioning the competence of programming (and in many cases upper management would side with sales). The fact is that the format not only delivers bodies--it delivers quality, upper income bodies and on average delivers a demo with a median age about ten years younger than conserative talk.

Quit whining and get out there and sell it!

 

[DToTheJ]

How in the world has this thread reached this long without a single mention of Stephanie Miller or Ed Schultz?

These two are currently the leading progressive talk personalities in terms of audience and presentation.

If there's plans to start a progressive talk station, they'd better include at least one of these two - or it won't be very attractive.

Furthermore, I think Steph's show is interchangeable enough to appeal to audiences outside of the progressive border (her affiliates in Washington and San Diego also air conservative programs), in other words, it's not as overly serious as an Ed Schultz or a Thom Hartmann. That's why if 950 AM (or even 97.5 FM) were to start a new talk format, Steph's show could fit right in.

 

[Phillyradiogeek]

I'm a liberal myself, yet I find progressive talk to be a tough sell as well. First off, Air America is simply bad radio. I was psyched when it first started, then immediately disappointed in the quality. Franken's show was terrible, Rhodes is like a fork along a chalkboard, Hartmann is not compelling.

It's no surprsie to me that the two most successful prog talk personalities, Schultz and Miller, are outside of AA. Schultz is OK, Miller is OK, but I'm not personally drawn to either host.

What bothers me the most is that all of these hosts are as much cheerleaders for the Dems as conservative hosts are for the GOP. Both sides are playing the same game. I'd rather not play at all.

 

[Rockin Rob]

My background: I'm 39, living in a mostly Conservative county in Pennsylvania, which is notably Liberal. My first election was Bush 41 vs. Dukakis. I grew up in the Reagan Administration and many of my political views were formed during that time. I have been involved, on a County-wide level, in political action organizations designed to elect Republicans.

The issue with Air America and other Liberal talk shows is the inability to listen to "the other side". Sure, RUsh and Hannity do cheerlead for the Right, but they will take on the Left. Whereas, the Democrats, whether on the radio or real life, take on more of a "I only want to talk to you if you share my views. If you don't, I will merely dismiss you as a close-minded buffoon with no credibility". That is a recipe for failure.

My favorite host, Glenn Beck, surely takes the Republican side on many issues, but also takes it to the Right, but does it in a way where he uses common sense and humor. Another fave, Michael Savage, gives it to both sides and does it in a very thought-provoking way. Sure many, especially on the Left, refer to it as Hate Speech (even though they are for Free Speech, wink!) but,if you can open your mind, you'll see that he is a thinking man's talk show host.

What it comes down to is the reason John Kerry failed. "Vote/Listen to me, coz I am not him". Americans see through the "Bush is an A-Hole" opinion and, once they discover that you do not have a reason to say that other than wanton disregard, bordering on hatred, the dials are already turned.

 

[radiophiler]

Disclaimer, I'm a liberal who has never voted for a Republican candidate for President since first being able to vote in a Pres. election in 1984 (yes, I voted for Mondale over Reagan). I have voted for state and local Republicans.

Re: WPEN: I don't think Greater Media upgraded 950's signal to put progressive talk on the station. They want a piece of the sports pie, including airing play-by-play of major Philly pro sports teams.

Sports stations have huge power ratios, the ratio of rating to revenue brought in. That's why so many sports stations that get 12+ ratings in the 0.8-1.9 range stick with the format. Their numbers are much better among men 18-49 and 25-54 which advertisers crave.

It's also not unusual to see two full-time sports talkers in many major (and even some medium) markets. New York City and Allentown do. And that's because, with ESPN, Fox or Sporting News, it's cheap to launch and maintain such a station. Add just one two-hour local program per day, all the better. Local and regional play-by-play: better yet.

Talk radio (up to a few years ago, consisting of mostly conservative hosts) doesn't have the power ratio sports has. However, its ratings make up for that, and once again, if you plug in Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity and Savage, a large chunk of your 5 a.m. to midnight broadcast weekdays are taken care of.

It's not too far-fetched to say that Rush (with an assist from Dr. Laura) made hundreds of full-time AM dial talk stations possible back in the 90s. They got ratings for station owners who were trying to figure out what to do with their AM stations now that music had almost entirely (with the exception of adult standards) migrated to the FM.

A full decade later, progressive talk comes along. Who is the Rush (and for that matter, the Dr. Laura) of liberal talk radio? The big three are probably Stephanie Miller, Randi Rhodes and Ed Schultz. But not one of them really dominates like Rush did.

Combine that with lesser signals in many (but not all) cases, and progressive talk just isn't bringing in the revenue that sports is.

Having said all that: If another AM in the Philly market decided to become a player (give up brokered programming), I think progressive talk would be a viable alternative. You'd have the format for yourself.

But I don't think at all that WPEN will be going there anytime soon.

 

[DToTheJ]

It's also not unusual to see two full-time sports talkers in many major (and even some medium) markets. New York City and Allentown do. And that's because, with ESPN, Fox or Sporting News, it's cheap to launch and maintain such a station. Add just one two-hour local program per day, all the better. Local and regional play-by-play: better yet.

In Rochester, they are about to go from virtually no all-sports stations to two - WHTK, which held both Fox Sports and ESPN contracts, just reformatted from "hot talk" to "Sports Radio 1280". While WROC is getting the ESPN contract and flipping to sports from... progressive talk. Ironic - a similar situation on the same frequency.

I guess it's hit or miss with progressive talk as a whole. But even if the format is deemed a failure, it's not too late for someone to step up and "salvage" them, and make them the Rush Limbaugh of their ilk. Then, as soon as that host gains popularity, not particularly bound on trying to make an entire progressive format work, then the other progressive hosts may gain traction.

 

[aindik]

not far at all from the 1.1 achieved by full-power CBS-owned FM talker WCKG, which at the time was airing the "Free FM" format, anchored by market legend Steve Dahl.

. . . in the afternoon.

In the morning, they were either running the abject failure of Rover in the Morning (he was the midwest replacement for Stern, who did about as well as the east coast replacement, David Lee Roth), or some hybrid of Opie and Anthony until 8 a.m. and something else the rest of the morning.

 

[radiohater]

Greater Media is just another cheap company trying to make money by spending less- or no money - to hire real talent.

If WPEN management was serious about taking on WIP and garner serious revenue, they would have hired Tony Bruno locally to take on Cataldi in am drive instead of giving up and throwing on ESPN and the painfully safe and boring Mike and Mike.

Putting Mike Missanelli opposite Eskin was a very smart move because Eskin has as many haters as supporters so they have an option in a weak pm drive list of radio.

Bruno is still unemployed from what I read and is a true Philly Icon who helped Cataldi become a millionaire when that show was just 2 non-radio writers with no concept of what a morning show was about.

It's just sad what has happened to competitive radio anymore. The airwaves are loaded with hacks and snake oil salesmen, yet talented and proven pros are sitting at home jobless?

I remember when Bruno was hired by 1210 to do a hybrid morning talk show in 1990'sh with Frank Rizzo in pm drive when CAU and CBS took on WWDB for local talk supremecy. Bruno overtook Db's numbers in less than a year and sadly, CBS pulled the plug on that monster signal and growing format to get rid of the drone unions who were locked into do-nothing jobs by antiquated contracts.

If they had stayed the course, 1210 would have been a dominant talker and I think Bruno would have become bigger than Imus on the national scene because of his energy, smarts, radio savvy and what later became a thirst for syndicated morning talent doing full-service radio. Seriously, look around the am drive syndicated landscape. Someone should tell Bruno he should scrap the sports talk career and launch some full-service morning product that radio desperately needs. We seem to have defined talk radio as strictly agenda-driven. What happened to just good RADIO shows where no one cares if the talent is left or right?

 

[amfmsw]

talkj...WWRL is 25,000 watts. Your math is impertfect if 10,000 is more tham 25,000

 

[talkjim]

You did some homework amfm, but not quite enough.

WLIB's 10 thousand watt, 2-pattern directional signal at 1190 provides a much wider coverage area than WWRL's 25,000 watt directonal pattern at 1600. And at night the difference is even more pronounced. WLIB is actually licensed for 30 thousand watts at night (I know it's odd, many people are unaware of this, just as many people are unaware that Randi beat Sean, but that doesn't mean it's not true). WWRL meanwhile has to drop to 5000 watts at night. I've done some work for WWRL in the past, I like and respect the people there, but you'd have a better chance at finding Karl Rove at Democratic headquarters than you would have of receiving WWRL in many parts of the New York metro in the evening.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Radiophiler said, Sports stations have huge power ratios, the ratio of rating to revenue brought in. That's why so many sports stations that get 12+ ratings in the 0.8-1.9 range stick with the format. Their numbers are much better among men 18-49 and 25-54 which advertisers crave.

In Wilmington, WWTX AM1290 hasn't shown in the 12+ numbers since dropping their Standards format from West Wood One a couple of years ago. If I understand what you are saying, even though their ratings stink (at least on the 12+ number format) the men who actually do listen to the station for Fox Sports radio, a three hour weekday PM drive time local talk show, Wilmington Blue Rocks Baseball, Uof D basketball, Penn State football, etc, are so prized by advertisers that they'll pay money to reach a really small number of men 18-54 who are tuned in? Is that what you are saying? If that's the case, then I can understand why Wilmington's WWTX, the Ticket continues to stay a Fox Sports Radio affiliate and carry sports talk and games. Unique programming bringing in a prized demo that even with small numbers, the ad agencies will pay to reach, generally low overhead with Fox Sports Radio, with only one local three hour show, plus good ad revenue for hometown Minor League baseball plus college sports might just make that AM station a profit maker. Which might also explain why Philly's WPEN is doing the same, except with ESPN Sports Radio.

I don't often listen to WWTX, but I have sometimes during the workday and frankly its a nice change from political talk on Wilmington's WDEL and WILM. Unfortunately for WWTX, I'm 57 so the advertisers don't care that I sometimes listen.

 

[imhomerjay]

The assertion that Rush, Sean et al "listen" to the other side is a bit of a stretch. They take calls, sure, but they alternately mock, belittle or berate the callers just as much as so-called progressive hosts. Much like Stern did, hosts pick the bottom-of-the-barrel calls and call them emblematic of the way all people who disagree.

The best host I've heard in this area who will respect opposing views is Smirconish. Like him or hate him--egomaniac that he may be--he is less prone to the hangups, shouting over and derision that mark so much talk radio.

I'm to the left with a libertarian bent, and have never/will never vote for a republican for President. But I listen to the conservative shows on my drives to/from work because I respect other opinions and want to undertand how other people think. I find it sad--depressing really--that we have sunk to the level of name calling over political beliefs. Not all liberals are baby-killing, athiest America haters any more than all conservatives are all bible-thumping, gay-hating cold-hearted gun nuts. And yet too many of us think that how one votes classifies them as one or the other.

Sad.