Missing formats in Philly?

[RadioPhillyFan]

I was just thinking about this the other day.

A missing format in Philly is Alternative. Now hear me out here.

RFF is an alternative format, yes. But; alternative can be as different as a Pop CHR and a Rhythmetic CHR.

Take RFF for example; Really popular, alternative? Well, it's a "Soft Alternative". They miss playing artists like Rise Against, The Used, Seether, Linkin Park, Korn, Blink 182, My Chemical Romance, etc.

Such artists, are popular with kids, and even some adults.

If someone could perhaps make a Hard Alternative station, there would be little or no distinction. Compare 975 HFS in Baltimore to Radio 104.5 in Philly.

Alright, here's an obivious missing format. Classic Country.
I'm not saying this would do well, but it's missing. 106.7 Harrisburg just flipped to this. Only time will tell how well this is doing.

Another one, Soft AC. LEV has a .6 - when it's 60 miles north of Philly. Sure, B101 changes it's playlist a lot and turns into Soft AC on occasion. So it's a horrible idea, to be honest. Missing format that would fail.

CHR, in a way - Q is kind of a CHR with a incredibly small Hot AC lean. Regardless, Q102 is Philly's CHR and Wired is too. But, I can still see someone pulling a 2.9-3.3 and a 600,000 cume. Good enough if you're needing a flip, I suppose. But, extrodinarily unlikely; which is why this is last.

Other then that, there's Jazz, Dance and Modern Rock. None of which would succeed, Modern Rock would clash with MMR entirely too much. Jazz is on WPEN-HD-2 and previously WJJZ. Dance is a dead genre, as much as I like it.

 

[Dancerev889]

I would not call Dance a dead genre. Almost every pop record right now is dance influenced with dance producers. Interscope records paid ove $350,000 for Avicii's levels. This is one biggest payouts for just a single. Will it work as a radio format? Not as a pure dance format. Just take a look at what the high school students are listening too.

Why do you go on a dance board saying Philly needs a dance/CHR and then say its a dead genre.

 

[imhomerjay]

By the logic outlined in the initial post, polka is a missing format, too. Not likely to do very well, but hey, it's a format, right?

Isn't the more productive conversation whether or not something has a viable chance of greater success than something that already exists--from a rational, buiness standpoint that is, not a personal preference/taste viewpoint?

 

[aindik]

I think NextGen Oldies might be a missing format. A station that sounds like a Top 40 from the 80s, that plays Top 40 from the 80s.

(No, not 96.5 The Point).

XM has a 90s station and a 2000s station (2000 through 2009). Not sure if that would work on terrestrial radio but it might.

It's been done, but I still think male oriented non-news talk is a missing format.

 

[imhomerjay]

We have WOGL now encompassing the '80s, alongside healthy doses on B101, Ben and WMGK. I don't see how another '80s focussed station--regardless of jingles or what have you that makes it sound like the reincarnation of Hot Hits/Eagle/Electric (had to mention that one for fun) is somehow going to magically do better than The Point did (or didn't). Satellite can do well with those single-decade stations thanks to their business model, but a single station in a single market trying to make a go of it...well, it tends not to work so well.

That said, while Ben obviously does play the music from 2000 onward, the center there seems to be late '70s-'80s-'90s, making it somewhat of a de facto "next generation oldies" station, or as close as we're likely to get.

 

[radiophiler]

I think the only formats "missing" in Philly are niches.

I happen to agree that an 80s centered pop station would be one possibility. Sure, Ben, B and WOGL all play some 80s. But I would propose a station that is 50-55% 80s and the rest mid and late 70s and 90s. Nothing newer than 1999. No early 70s, no 60s.

Another niche format: A Rock AC like the River in Harrisburg or WMMO in Orlando. Classic rock without the hardest cuts (but by no means soft either) from the mid 70s onward combined with some of the Pop Alternative of recent years.

A third option: something like the Bridge on Sirius/XM. Folk rock and softer classic rock, with a lot of 70s, a fair amount of 80s, and even an occasional appropriate song from the 90s. Lots of Elton John, Billy Joel, Gerry Rafferty, Little River Band, Fleetwood Mac, etc. Softer than MGK.

Finally, a NJ 101.5 for the entire Delaware Valley. Entertaining talk hosts who don't always talk about politics -- in fact, I'd require them to talk about politics less than 1/3 of the time. Live and local from morning drive through 11pm or midnight. Perhaps even a classic hits music format on weekends.

Oh, and frankly, I thought an updated classic rock like WYSP should have worked. Maybe it was the branding of the station. "Music you grew up with." Who knows what that means?

 

[aindik]

We have WOGL now encompassing the '80s, alongside healthy doses on B101, Ben and WMGK. I don't see how another '80s focussed station--regardless of jingles or what have you that makes it sound like the reincarnation of Hot Hits/Eagle/Electric (had to mention that one for fun) is somehow going to magically do better than The Point did (or didn't). Satellite can do well with those single-decade stations thanks to their business model, but a single station in a single market trying to make a go of it...well, it tends not to work so well.

That said, while Ben obviously does play the music from 2000 onward, the center there seems to be late '70s-'80s-'90s, making it somewhat of a de facto "next generation oldies" station, or as close as we're likely to get.

The Point was essentially an 80s rock station. What I'm proposing is an 80s Top 40 station. And you can't mix the 80s with the other music WOGL plays and expect people born in the late 70s/early 80s to listen to it.

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

I actually was thinking of the "Next Gen" format. I was going to reference a station in Seattle with it. I'm not sure if it'll work, Mix is kinda doing 2005-2012's right now. B101 is doing 80's to 2010's. WOGL is doing late 60's to 80's. I mean, the Hard Alternative would do great on the weekends when 104.5 goes almost AAA/Indie, it could also take the people who don't want talk in mornings from MMR. CHR could take mornings from Q102, for people who don't want talk in mornings.

A 50's-60's format would be a good idea for AM radio.

Also, I love the idea of a 101.5-ish station for Delaware Valley with a classic hits on weekend, Merlin should give that a shot.

 

[BobSmolarek]

I know a lot of people may say 104.5 is not hard enough, but I give them credit, the vast majority of songs on there are not heard on any other station I can receive, I'm in west central Jersey. The station really stands out from all the others, glad it is succeeding even though I'm not a fan of that music.

 

[imhomerjay]

The Point was essentially an 80s rock station. What I'm proposing is an 80s Top 40 station.

Still way too limited, even adding in the allegedly non-rock songs.

The closest thing to a top 40 doing retro songs is generally going to be a classic hits station in many areas. Other than that, the '80s get setmented in to the other formats.

And you can't mix the 80s with the other music WOGL plays and expect people born in the late 70s/early 80s to listen to it.

And those folks can listen more to Ben or the B, or even WMGK to some extent. People born in 1980, the midpoint of your date range, are in their early 30s now, so, no, they're not quite the sweet spot for WOGL. s they get there, WOGL's music will do what it has done, move forward...and that sets aside that not all generalizations apply to all people born in a given span of time.

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

The hard alternative sounds like a perfect fit.
The nextgen sounds like a nice fit:
80's Rock? MMR does some of that.

But no station will play what the Hard Alternative station would play, Next Gen is pretty covered - 80's rock too.

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

Does anyone think a Hard Alternative would find success in Philadelphia?

 

[imhomerjay]

Someone probably thinks it.

 

[Irishfl]

I agree the point was a joke of an 80's format, and something that sounded more like one of the several top 40's of the decade would've done well here. Something like the 80's channel in Chicago. I don't know why cities all over the country went with the point which was 80's rock, but outside a few cox owned stations, they all didn't last.

Regardless I think the ship has sailed on the all 80's format. Now would be the time for an all 90's, but even that wouldn't last for more then a few years. All decade formats have always had fast burnouts with the public.

 

[chrocket87]

I was just thinking about this the other day.

A missing format in Philly is Alternative. Now hear me out here.

RFF is an alternative format, yes. But; alternative can be as different as a Pop CHR and a Rhythmetic CHR.

Take RFF for example; Really popular, alternative? Well, it's a "Soft Alternative". They miss playing artists like Rise Against, The Used, Seether, Linkin Park, Korn, Blink 182, My Chemical Romance, etc.

Such artists, are popular with kids, and even some adults.

If someone could perhaps make a Hard Alternative station, there would be little or no distinction. Compare 975 HFS in Baltimore to Radio 104.5 in Philly.

1) They play all of those artists, minus Seether and Korn. Those artists belong on active rock and MMR plays them.
2) A hard alternative would likely clash too much with MMR and GM (the most likely to even consider a rock station in Philly) doesn't want to cannibalize their audience/billing.
3) Let's compare HFS to Radio 104.5: Radio 104.5 is a ratings powerhouse and attracts demos which aren't usually so hot on alt-rock (women, 35-64). HFS is shy of a 1 share and is being beat in share and cume by an out of market rival station.

 

[chrocket87]

If GM really wants to go after RFF, they'll go after it with a AAA format, as there is no AAA in town minus noncomm NPR and RFF's AAA lean is what made it so successful to begin with. Sorry, but I just don't see a hole in the market for an alternative-active rock hybrid.

 

[ka2xuk]

Here are three formats that have been missing for a long time, but are unlikely to show up because of the rampant ageism in both the radio industry and the ad agencies:

1. Adult standards. I mean REAL standards by Frank Sinatra, Perry Como, Ella Fitzgerald, etc., without the AC-flavored dreck by Elton John and Billy Joel that a lot of programmers love to sprinkle in. I miss the old WIP from the Metromedia days and the period when WPEN played standards. Likewise, WWJZ, when it hailed from Pemberton Township and played standards and big band music.

2. Beautiful music/easy listening. I still miss "Wish" (WWSH), as it was a good station to listen to in the background while working around the house or just reading a book.

3. Pre-British Invasion oldies. The old WPGR was a great station before it got on the "Geator Gold Radio" kick and eventually sold out to a brokered ethnic broadcaster. I used to like the old WCAU-FM/WOGL...but they don't play MY music anymore, except on Sunday night.

A possible fourth: Classic country. Most country stations, including WXTU, are basically Top-40 with a twang. It has a huge following and 'XTU is a very successful station...but there's so much great country music that just isn't played anymore.

There's no reason why these formats can't work on AM or on a currently struggling FM station. But, since the ad agencies hate older demos (although not everyone who loves this music is in a nursing home, in the same way that not all people who love fried chicken are African-American and not all people who love pasta are Italian-American), such stations would have to go after the mom and pop type businesses who cannot afford to advertise on the big corporate stations.

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

Kinda had a rough busy day, not trying to come off rude.

1) WMMR... 75% of what they play is not NEW. It will not clash, let's not be stupid here.
2) No, not Alternative-Active rock hybrid. Hard Alternative - and HFS is a Class A FM in a mostly black market. That's pretty damn good for such an incredibly weak signal in the ... least attractive part of baltimore for that format.
3) RFF is an AAA on weekends, Soft Alternative on weekdays.
4) MMR plays entirely too much Classic Rock! It already clashes with MGK enough! What is a need action is something like HFS. Some people are left feeling like their is just nothing good on Philly Radio; many of my friends express "Radio 104.5 is too soft" and "I'd rather listen to WRFF-HD2". I personally, have to stream 105.9 Pittsburgh for a hard alternative. I do not want to do that, at all! I want one in Philly, and am at wits end with this.
5) Hard Alternative appeals to both adults AND kids. It can pull the entire young audience or audience that doesn't want to hear classic rock off of WMMR.
6) Alternatives have always found success in Philly. WPLY, WDVE, Y-Rock on XPN. All of these formats did well.
7) It'd certainly pull much nicer then the lowest three FM's anyway.

 

[imhomerjay]

Ah, the trite ageism refrain. Been a while for that one...but it's still bogus--it's simply dollars and cents....or even sense.

 

[ka2xuk]

Ah, the trite ageism refrain. Been a while for that one...but it's still bogus--it's simply dollars and cents....or even sense.

And why is that? It's because the media buyers and the broadcasters have this preconceived notion that people who like those kinds of music are collecting Social Security, eating cat food for dinner, going about in walkers, putting stuff in their hair to turn it blue...or simply pushing up daisies.

Hell, the know-it-alls killed off some high-billing commercial classical stations (like WFLN and San Francisco's KDFC), maybe using the premise that all the people who were around when that music was current died off over 200 years ago! And, yes, the station that replaced KDFC is struggling with its young-skewing format. In Philly, 95.7 didn't exactly set the world on fire either after WFLN disappeared.

Those formats CAN work...but you have to know how to sell them. You can't sit on your butt and wait for agency orders to come in on a fax machine! If you want orders to be faxed in, you should work at a diner, not a niche-programmed radio station.

Noncommercial WRTI plays "old" skewing music...yet it doesn't seem that they have trouble getting donors to phone in pledges or to make pledges on the Internet. (Yes, Virginia, even older people can get on the Web!)