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Mitt: I'll Kill Big Bird

trapper12 said:
I have said the same thing on other forums and keep getting told that has nothing to do with it. From what I have read they ie: Big Bird rake in between 300 and 400 million in royalties from merchandise. In my opinion that has a lot to do with it and should be more than enough to make the show more than self supporting.

To be honest, the shows have nothing to worry about. If you're a PBS or NPR show, you have lots of income sources. That's not the issue.

The majority of the federal funding goes directly to local stations, not programs. When I was at an NPR station, we had one job that was specifically paid for by federal funds. There were other things paid for by CSGs (Community Service Grants).

So what you're asking a Congressman to do is cut money to his local district. Not a popular thing for someone to do if he cares about getting re-elected. That's why this entire thread is moot.
 
I think that a lot of people outside of broadcasting, except for those who financially support public broadcasting, have no idea how PBS or NPR are structured. It seems like people think PBS is structured like a commercial network: a single entity with a bunch of affiliates. But nobody donates directly to PBS: they donate to WNET, WTTW, or WHYY.
 
Why should we expect the reasonable, rational citizens to have to spend time slogging through the hyperbole, though?
Why does it HAVE to be a part of the system.
Why can't people say what they need to say without pandering?

Sure, "this is the way the system is played," but that doesn't make it right to play it that way.
 
M.J. said:
I think that a lot of people outside of broadcasting, except for those who financially support public broadcasting, have no idea how PBS or NPR are structured.

I agree...as evidenced by this debate. In fact, I find it's no different for people INSIDE broadcasting.
 
quadraphonic said:
Maybe there's hope for all this hyperbolizing to stop.
Especially if you're using someone else's copyrights and trademarks to hyperbolize.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443294904578046980768401950.html

Since Mitt started it, the letter should be directed toward Mitt. Interestingly, I think Sesame Street and PBS are getting a ton of GOOD publicity out of this. I would think that the creators and PBS would want the discussion to continue.

The underlying debate is a good one. In this day and age, is there a need for publically-funded television? Should everything be left o the provate sector, etc.?
 
formeraa said:
quadraphonic said:
Maybe there's hope for all this hyperbolizing to stop.
Especially if you're using someone else's copyrights and trademarks to hyperbolize.

Since Mitt started it, the letter should be directed toward Mitt. Interestingly, I think Sesame Street and PBS are getting a ton of GOOD publicity out of this. I would think that the creators and PBS would want the discussion to continue.

When you sit down with the attorneys, I think you will find that they will advise you to at least go through the motions and pretend you are highly incensed over the violation of your copyrights and trademarks.... even if you find the whole event a bit amusing and useful.

If you let someone poach your Intellectual Property without response, when a serious breach comes along the court could say: "You indicated long ago that you do not consider it trespassing when people use your concepts."


formeraa said:
The underlying debate is a good one. In this day and age, is there a need for publically-funded television? Should everything be left o the provate sector, etc.?

To have a meaningful and robust discussion of the public funding of television, it is helpful and necessary to bring into the discussion a lot of other expenditures and look at the logic of all of them to see if what we decide about television is consistent with our decision in other areas.

Should the Fire Department be funded by the public or left to the private sector?

Should highways be funded by the public or left to the private sector?

Should postal service be funded by the public or left to the private sector?

And schools?

And weather forecasting?

And the inspection of meat processing plants and restaurants?

Who should regulate the development and the distribution of Prescription Drugs? Government or industry?

Who should regulate zoning issues... or should they even be regulated.

If you will deal with all of these issues and keep a list why you decided one way on some, the other way on others, then we will be ready to really tackle the PBS/NPR issues head-on.
 
formeraa said:
The underlying debate is a good one. In this day and age, is there a need for publically-funded television? Should everything be left o the provate sector, etc.?

That is the heart of the matter. But the fact is that there would not have been publicly funded television had the commercial companies not screwed it up. The reason the government got involved is two-fold: The airwaves belong to the public, not private sector. And the private sector has done a bad job with the public airwaves. The reason being that private sector is more motivated by profit than public service. That's the exact same reason why the government got involved in social security and medicare.
 
Goat Rodeo Cowboy said:
To have a meaningful and robust discussion of the public funding of television, it is helpful and necessary to bring into the discussion a lot of other expenditures and look at the logic of all of them to see if what we decide about television is consistent with our decision in other areas.

You need to be a bit more precise with your question, because you'll get different results. The question isn't so much about public funding of television as it is about federal funding of public television. Many people who oppose federal funding of such things (including the other services you named) take their view from the 10th Amendment, which declares that duties not mentioned in the Constitution as belonging to the federal government, belong to state and local governments, or to the people themselves.

So...

Fire department - public or private? I say both, as we have both in the area where I live, and both seem to work equally well. But those run by the government are run by local governments, not federal. The only time I've seen federally-run fire departments has been to service federally-held land, such as National Forests or National Parks.

Roads and highways? That depends on what road and who's funding. IMO, Interstate and US highways are appropriate for the US gov't, as is infrastructure to access airports, as they serve interstate commerce. State highways, county roads and city streets should be funded at the appropriate level of gov't, and not by the federal gov't. Privately built infrastructure is fine too, although the power of eminent domain should be limited only to the government, and then only used when a clear public interest exists. (Governments have been abusing the power recently, condemning through eminent domain property that is then turned over to a private developer.)

And so on...

So, if a state government wants to fund a statewide PBS network, or if a local government wants to fund a local NPR station, and the people believe it's a rightful expenditure, let them. The only place the federal government should be involved is in the District of Columbia, as that is a federal jurisdiction.

That's the opinion of this conservative.
 
dhett: Thanks for a well thought-out contribution to this thread, this discussion.

Our nation went through a very dramatic era of coming to terms with the relationship between Federal and States in the era that resulted in that little unpleasantness back in 1860. In that era we did some rethinking of how we would interpret what the Founding Fathers intended in those precious documents that are the foundation of our national culture.

Since the 1860 era we have had some significant bumps in the road to the future: The so-called Robber Baron era which resulted in the Anti-trust movement, the migration from a predominantly rural population rather uniformly scattered about the nation in the pursuit of agriculture to a predominantly city oriented industrial nation, two World Wars that in some ways erased the oceans as insurmountable barriers between cultures. We have gone from a business model built around Proprietorships and non-public family-oriented corporations to the era of Public Corporations and now we face international corporations that know no boundaries.

Part of me is a Conservative. I wrapped my arms around the concept while living in Missouri in the early 1960s. In the last 50 years it has become evident that the Conservative thrust is built on a foundation that the 10th Amendment must be understood the way it was in the 1790s.

As Dorothy said in The Wizard of Oz.... "We're not in Kansas anymore!"


dhett said:
The question isn't so much about public funding of television as it is about federal funding of public television. Many people who oppose federal funding of such things (including the other services you named) take their view from the 10th Amendment, which declares that duties not mentioned in the Constitution as belonging to the federal government, belong to state and local governments, or to the people themselves.

Since the early 1930s this nation decided that broadcasting IS NOT a local or state activity. It is a federal issue that crosses state lines and is part of inter-state commerce. For the purposes of regulations, primarily the assignment and allocation of frequencies, we accept that. What we are discussing is the fact that as a nation we do not see the flow of operating funds as being federal issue. Except in commercial broadcasting. Commercial broadcasters have long argued in state legislatures that they cannot impose sales taxes on broadcast advertising because broadcast advertising is a federally regulated and directed function. Broadcasting operators have long argued that state and local government cannot license and regulate the journalism arm of broadcasting because it is regulated as a federal issue. In fact broadcasters have tied themselves in knots insisting that the Constitution language that we refer to as Freedom of the Press should be liberally allocated to include not only the journalists of the print industry, but journalists of the broadcast industry. And now the Internet information industry.

Here is the change I see that really forces us to think deeply about the 10th Amendment. Early America: business were very local. Business had no political reason to press up against the 10th Amendment. In fact, business was very "retail" and was happy to use the state legislature to keep the developing national corporations out of the local business-sandbox.

Since WWII we have become a business community in America dominated by national and international corporations. I don't care how Conservative Jack Welch or the Walton family may be, the last thing GE, Wal-mart, big Pharma companies and other giants want is to NOT be able to have one nation-wide set of employee policies and benefit plans. Big Conservative led corporations NOT want the problem of finding that they can no longer transfer their employees from state to state in the best interest of the corporation (and some would argue in the best interest of employee careers) because employees revolt: "No sir/mam, I will not accept a transfer to that state because the schools are lousy, their state regulated insurance companies are lousy, they have traffic laws that can send you to prison for 20 years because you were considered at fault in a traffic accident, and because of state-only funding, there are no decent nursing homes in which to place my aging mother. And they have NO PBS stations in that state for my children!

35 years ago I created from scratch a corporate self-funded employee medical benefits program for my employer. One of my orders was to attend meetings of organizations where the personnel staff folks from the big corporations gathered. Guess what I learned: It was not Liberals who were driving the changes in laws about how we deal with the relationship between employees and employers. It was the personnel and benefits officers of companies headed by big-time Conservatives who were driving the push for state and federal laws that only a Liberal could admit in public to loving. While Conservatives openly scream about Obamacare, it is the personnel mechanism of corporations headed by well known Conservatives that have built the launch-pad for Federal involvement in medical care and funding.

Tying the discussion of how we fund the PBS/NPR type of broadcasting activity to the 10th Amendment is to tie the discussion to the carcass of a dead horse that is floating down the river toward the ocean. Public TV and Radio were admonished by Congress a few years ago to find ways to become self supporting. They seem headed that way. There will be severe head-butting displays with the industry of commercial broadcasters as they travel that road. You are likely to get your wish (but it may take 10 to 20 years) but it probably won't be because the nation has a sudden "Come to Jesus Meeting" over the 10th Amendment.

I don't think we are in Kansas anymore.
 
dhett said:
Many people who oppose federal funding of such things (including the other services you named) take their view from the 10th Amendment, which declares that duties not mentioned in the Constitution as belonging to the federal government, belong to state and local governments, or to the people themselves.

Article 6 Clause 2 overrides the 10th Amendment. That clause is as follows (emphasis is mine):

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

That says that a Federal law overrides any state or local law to the contrary, and that the Constitution overrides any conflicting Federal law (which is what keeps the Supreme Court in business). If there is no Federal law, then the states are free to enact their own if desired. That's where the 10th Amendment comes in.

The old nationwide 55 mph speed limit law is a perfect example of a Federal law overriding state/local law under Article 6 Clause 2. Once that law was repealed, the states became free under the 10th Amendment to set their own speed limits again.

But I don't think that's an issue in this case.

I don't think there'd be any Constitutional problem if the CPB were to be defunded at the Federal level. It doesn't prohibit the states from doing anything related to public television. It wouldn't stop the states from funding it, if they so desired, nor would it mandate that CPB become totally private.
 
KeithE4 said:
I don't think there'd be any Constitutional problem if the CPB were to be defunded at the Federal level.

Conversely, there's no Constitutional problem continuing federal funding, because if there was, there would have been a challenge on that level. Never in the 45 year history of public broadcasting has anyone made a Constitutional challenge to the Act or to the funding. If the Republicans feel there's a problem, they're welcome to challenge the law on that issue.

The way the Law was written, you can't simply defund CPB. You need to actually repeal the Public Broadcasting Act. I don't think the Conservatives have the votes to do that.
 
KeithE4 said:
The old nationwide 55 mph speed limit law is a perfect example of a Federal law overriding state/local law under Article 6 Clause 2. Once that law was repealed, the states became free under the 10th Amendment to set their own speed limits again.

Forgive me if my memory has slipped (yes, I'm in THAT demo) but I seem to remember that the 55-mile per hour speed limit was a suggestion to the states but if not followed the feds would with hold their public highway funding.

The feds do not have universal law-making capability but they do hold financial purse strings and can use blackmail to enforce their "desires" if not their "laws".
 
landtuna said:
KeithE4 said:
The old nationwide 55 mph speed limit law is a perfect example of a Federal law overriding state/local law under Article 6 Clause 2. Once that law was repealed, the states became free under the 10th Amendment to set their own speed limits again.

Forgive me if my memory has slipped (yes, I'm in THAT demo) but I seem to remember that the 55-mile per hour speed limit was a suggestion to the states but if not followed the feds would with hold their public highway funding.

The feds do not have universal law-making capability but they do hold financial purse strings and can use blackmail to enforce their "desires" if not their "laws".

The Emergency Highway Energy Conservation Act was passed by Congress, and signed by Dick Nixon on 1/2/1974. It went into effect that March. This was the law that mandated 55 MPH on all highways nationwide. The Surface Transportation and Uniform Relocation Assistance Act of 1987 allowed states to raise the speed limits on rural Interstates to 65 MPH.

The national speed limit mandate was repealed in late 1995.
 
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