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busyradioguy
Guest
Mike pretty much hit the nail on the head. I am hearing many of the same complaints from listeners about DFW radio, that he is.
'Nuff said.
'Nuff said.
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Raymond_Dheo
Guest
"If there is a way to blend quality talent -- national or otherwise -- with the local information we need, I think many, if not most, listeners will be satisfied with the product, even if it doesn't meet the "high-church" definition of what we think radio ought to be."
Have you listened to Kidd lately? Or Rush for that matter? Local news, weather and traffic blended with national talent. Hmmmm, kinda like The Today Show or GMA.
As for getting out in the neighborhoods and telling people what's going on....does anyone care what's happening in my Euless neighborhood outside of me and my neighbors?
I can tell you this...unless you live down the street from me, I don't care what's happening in your neighborhoodl. I'm much more interested in knowing why Big Brown, the horse that didn't win the Belmont, finished in last place.
Have you listened to Kidd lately? Or Rush for that matter? Local news, weather and traffic blended with national talent. Hmmmm, kinda like The Today Show or GMA.
As for getting out in the neighborhoods and telling people what's going on....does anyone care what's happening in my Euless neighborhood outside of me and my neighbors?
I can tell you this...unless you live down the street from me, I don't care what's happening in your neighborhoodl. I'm much more interested in knowing why Big Brown, the horse that didn't win the Belmont, finished in last place.
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MikeShannon914
Guest
Thank you. I assumed that "Big Brown" was probably a rap artist. ;D
Perhaps the term should be "local flavor." "Did ya see that billboard on the Tollway..." "Boy, that was some jam-up on Central Expwy today..." "Man, can you believe Neil Diamond's coming to town? It's been so long that I think he last performed here at Moody Coliseum..." "I was out at Northeast Mall Saturday and saw..." "Mayor Miller's talking about the smoking ban again..." "If you're going to see the new Indiana Jones movie, you've gotta check out the screens at Northpark..." No, I don't care if LD Bell's marching band is having a fundraiser...I'm not talking about local-level PSAs. I'm talking about bonding with listeners by talking about the familiar, and/or about something that's of interest to your demo (like LOCAL activities, concerts, festivals, etc.)
Simply put, it brings about feelings of commonality with the listener and jock. It builds a relationship. Ron Chapman, Jack Schell and Mike Selden laughed all the way to the bank by doing that.
Telling me it's ":15 past 'the hour'" and "so-and-so's on tour this summer, so look for them in YOUR town," etc is so weak and so obvious that it's not local. Folks that listen to Rush and friends already know that it's a national show, and that might actually be an attraction in his case...that listeners know that this venom is being preached to the choir all over the nation, all at the same time, kind of like a national battle cry.
Kidd's local ratings took an immediate bath when he went syndicated. The local talk was taken out. And those local listeners were disenchanted with someone who had been live and local for about 10 solid years. Now Kiss-FM's demo will probably put up with Brit-ney talk and who Jessica's hanging out with and who won on "Dancing with the Stars," etc. For the rest of us who prefer more than mindless pablum, I want to know what's up in MY city. What's going on, what's there to do, etc. Syndie and satellite programming makes me feel like DFW is no more special than any other place in the US.
Perhaps the term should be "local flavor." "Did ya see that billboard on the Tollway..." "Boy, that was some jam-up on Central Expwy today..." "Man, can you believe Neil Diamond's coming to town? It's been so long that I think he last performed here at Moody Coliseum..." "I was out at Northeast Mall Saturday and saw..." "Mayor Miller's talking about the smoking ban again..." "If you're going to see the new Indiana Jones movie, you've gotta check out the screens at Northpark..." No, I don't care if LD Bell's marching band is having a fundraiser...I'm not talking about local-level PSAs. I'm talking about bonding with listeners by talking about the familiar, and/or about something that's of interest to your demo (like LOCAL activities, concerts, festivals, etc.)
Simply put, it brings about feelings of commonality with the listener and jock. It builds a relationship. Ron Chapman, Jack Schell and Mike Selden laughed all the way to the bank by doing that.
Telling me it's ":15 past 'the hour'" and "so-and-so's on tour this summer, so look for them in YOUR town," etc is so weak and so obvious that it's not local. Folks that listen to Rush and friends already know that it's a national show, and that might actually be an attraction in his case...that listeners know that this venom is being preached to the choir all over the nation, all at the same time, kind of like a national battle cry.
Kidd's local ratings took an immediate bath when he went syndicated. The local talk was taken out. And those local listeners were disenchanted with someone who had been live and local for about 10 solid years. Now Kiss-FM's demo will probably put up with Brit-ney talk and who Jessica's hanging out with and who won on "Dancing with the Stars," etc. For the rest of us who prefer more than mindless pablum, I want to know what's up in MY city. What's going on, what's there to do, etc. Syndie and satellite programming makes me feel like DFW is no more special than any other place in the US.
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busyradioguy
Guest
Amen, again, Mike. Maybe now Raymond_Dheo will get it. If not, I guess we can just chalk it up as another brainwashed con-sultant.
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Raymond_Dheo
Guest
Define...geographically..."local".
I'm pretty sure folks in Ft. Worth don't care what's happening at Northpark this weekend. I live halfway between D and FW and I don't care.
And, I think if you go back and listen to what KVIL was really doing in the 1980's, you'll see that they were talking about things that everyone in the metroplex found interesting. And what things do people in Ft. Worth and Dallas both share an interest in? Certainly The Cowboys, but the list gets pretty thin the further along you go.
Could this be why Dallas and Ft. Worth have different newspapers and why an ALL NEWS station has never been successful in this market.
I'm pretty sure folks in Ft. Worth don't care what's happening at Northpark this weekend. I live halfway between D and FW and I don't care.
And, I think if you go back and listen to what KVIL was really doing in the 1980's, you'll see that they were talking about things that everyone in the metroplex found interesting. And what things do people in Ft. Worth and Dallas both share an interest in? Certainly The Cowboys, but the list gets pretty thin the further along you go.
Could this be why Dallas and Ft. Worth have different newspapers and why an ALL NEWS station has never been successful in this market.
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SmokeRing
Guest
Heaven forbid someone might want to staff an entire programming department.
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eliseatheduck
Guest
Uh Raymond hoist the white flag,your frigate just got blown out of the water. Mike gave you several examples of how the localism worked, and why and fresh ones with each response. You meanwhile reiterated your argument, over and over again like a shortened play list or a long distance voice track saying its sunny out side when ita torrential down pour and a F5 tornado is coming down your neighbor's street. Sort of like radio today,a short play list that listeners cant stand except for the "selected' research group,choking on stale sandwiches,and the reliance on an out of town entertainment source, which is rarely what it is suppose to be,instead of GOOD,not warm body, local talent. Cheaper doesnt mean better, cheaper is just cheap ,sounds cheap, and listeners with an IQ above a coffee table take notice and leave. The resident mole consultants will sweep in momentarily to your rescue,but one has lost credibility due to self indulgence and promoting of himself,so scratch that one.
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kentuckymedia
Guest
Not to blow smoke up anyones ass, but I want to chime in on the fight between local and syndicated.
Here is the deal, and yes..I am a consultant!
LOCAL
Local programming is a great prime, for radio stations who have the necessary funding to hold the station live. It does allow you to hit the streets, show your station off, connect on local issues, etc.
Here is the downfall with being local. Budgets! I have only a handful of clients who dont really care how much they spend on talent, and those clients are a rare bunch. They want the station staffed around the clock, they want local news/weather around the clock. I think they are great, and they pay me well too...so I cant complain!
However majority of my clients can afford 2 maybe 3 local staff members on each station. My first priority is to fill afternoon drive. Then if they want a local morning show, I do what I can and try to find decent low cost talent. Remember this, money doesnt grow on trees. Majority of these new companies are buying Clear Channel's scraps and its hard to fit the round peg in the square hole.
SYNDICATED
While its nice to have a local morning show, syndicated is much more content friendly, cost effective and ratings driven. I have completed numerous market research studies and I can tell you honestly nearly 90% of research shows that as long as they get their local news/weather fix, the rest...they just want to laugh with, cry with and feel closer to. They dont have to be in the same town, as long as they can strike emotions.
Its a hard concept to swallow, but if you can pay Kidd Kraddick 35,000 a year for a small market morning show, or pay 60,000 a year to hire a two person local morning show, which one do you think they will chose first.
Ratings and revenue, here is the scary thing. 65% of my clients have a syndicated morning show. Out of that, nearly 80% of that figures morning shows are in the top 3 in their respective markets. 70% of those morning shows also are the top billing shows in their markets.
The audience just wants to connect. They can be down the street or in Dallas Texas.
Another top rated morning show is Bob and Sheri. Almost every market we have them in they are in the top 3 with Women 25-54. I have to say thats amazing!
Here is the deal, and yes..I am a consultant!
LOCAL
Local programming is a great prime, for radio stations who have the necessary funding to hold the station live. It does allow you to hit the streets, show your station off, connect on local issues, etc.
Here is the downfall with being local. Budgets! I have only a handful of clients who dont really care how much they spend on talent, and those clients are a rare bunch. They want the station staffed around the clock, they want local news/weather around the clock. I think they are great, and they pay me well too...so I cant complain!
However majority of my clients can afford 2 maybe 3 local staff members on each station. My first priority is to fill afternoon drive. Then if they want a local morning show, I do what I can and try to find decent low cost talent. Remember this, money doesnt grow on trees. Majority of these new companies are buying Clear Channel's scraps and its hard to fit the round peg in the square hole.
SYNDICATED
While its nice to have a local morning show, syndicated is much more content friendly, cost effective and ratings driven. I have completed numerous market research studies and I can tell you honestly nearly 90% of research shows that as long as they get their local news/weather fix, the rest...they just want to laugh with, cry with and feel closer to. They dont have to be in the same town, as long as they can strike emotions.
Its a hard concept to swallow, but if you can pay Kidd Kraddick 35,000 a year for a small market morning show, or pay 60,000 a year to hire a two person local morning show, which one do you think they will chose first.
Ratings and revenue, here is the scary thing. 65% of my clients have a syndicated morning show. Out of that, nearly 80% of that figures morning shows are in the top 3 in their respective markets. 70% of those morning shows also are the top billing shows in their markets.
The audience just wants to connect. They can be down the street or in Dallas Texas.
Another top rated morning show is Bob and Sheri. Almost every market we have them in they are in the top 3 with Women 25-54. I have to say thats amazing!
MikeShannon914 said:
But what does it tell YOU that you have to go back 28 years to find the evidence to back up your example?
And I don't disagree with your underlying thesis. Look at how the Ticket has held off ESPN and Fox Sports attacks, how out-of-market shows like John Boy and Billy, Walton and Johnson, etc have failed...Local works.
But using a 30 year old example of KVIl slightly degrages your credibility, doesn't it? Is there no more recent example that you can use and find? because IMHO, KVIL of that time was brilliance, but it was also a right-time-right-place confluence that allowed them to do what they did.
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kentuckymedia
Guest
Local works...
Syndicated works...
Its a balance of epic proportions. I am for one against using ABC Satellite or Jones. Neither company really makes me happy. However using syndicated shows like KIDD, BOB AND SHERI, BOB AND TOM, JOHN and BILLY, BIG D AND BUBBA, you make them work for you!
Its about how you position the product, not how you produce the position.
Bob and Sheri are a tremendous example. They will cut local liners for whatever you want them to cut. Big D and Bubba, Bob and Tom all do the same thing. You utilize them throughout the day, have them promote your local contests, the local county fair, the local sidewalk sales on Saturday.
It comes back to can you make the listener "emotionally happy". If you can do that, you have won.
The average listener could care less if your morning show was on North Irving Pike or in Phoenix Arizona. Provide them with local things once an hour (news/weather/traffic) and they are set.
Its great that you think local is the only thing that wins, but I have data and proof that say its not.
Syndicated works...
Its a balance of epic proportions. I am for one against using ABC Satellite or Jones. Neither company really makes me happy. However using syndicated shows like KIDD, BOB AND SHERI, BOB AND TOM, JOHN and BILLY, BIG D AND BUBBA, you make them work for you!
Its about how you position the product, not how you produce the position.
Bob and Sheri are a tremendous example. They will cut local liners for whatever you want them to cut. Big D and Bubba, Bob and Tom all do the same thing. You utilize them throughout the day, have them promote your local contests, the local county fair, the local sidewalk sales on Saturday.
It comes back to can you make the listener "emotionally happy". If you can do that, you have won.
The average listener could care less if your morning show was on North Irving Pike or in Phoenix Arizona. Provide them with local things once an hour (news/weather/traffic) and they are set.
Its great that you think local is the only thing that wins, but I have data and proof that say its not.
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busyradioguy
Guest
little1 said:
Geez... How many times do we have to bang you guys on the head to remind you that deregulation killed it all? Mike is having to go back that far, because it is the best example in the pre-deregulated days of radio. Sure there are probably examples a little less old, but post 1996 examples are hard to come by. That's what's so sickening about radio today. Everybody operates cheap because they can.
My question is aimed at KentuckyMedia, because I'm honestly curious: how many of the stations that you work with who have local content are in a market as large as D-FW? The reason I ask: I have a hypothesis that syndicated program works in smaller markets because it doesn't sound, well, small market. I don't think that's as true in Market No. 5. That said, it's just a hypothesis, and I have nothing but my gut to go on. And it is a large gut. 
And then, another thing you made me curious about: why local afternoon drive, but not (necessarily) morning? That's interesting to me.
And then, another thing you made me curious about: why local afternoon drive, but not (necessarily) morning? That's interesting to me.
The most listened to radio station in the nation is CHR/Pop WHTZ/NYC; WABC hasn't been #1 in NYC in decades!!!
Syndication is undoubtedly cheaper than live 24/7 programming, and let's face it; none of the corporate behemoths who've destroyed station after station and format after format in market after market really give a (bleep) about quality programming.
At least some of the smaller owners still care about cherishing their employees and providing them the resources to produce an excellent program, which is definitely an endangered species at tons of stations in all market sizes owned by the behemoths.
Listening to an out-of-town radio station (150-2000+ miles away) used to be fun in the sixties and seventies when the programming was live and compelling instead of being as vanilla and safe as it is today, and where creativity and originality is discouraged.
Syndication can beneficial to a station or it can be a disaster, as was the case here in LA for two radio megastars named Rick Dees & Steve Harvey.
Syndication is undoubtedly cheaper than live 24/7 programming, and let's face it; none of the corporate behemoths who've destroyed station after station and format after format in market after market really give a (bleep) about quality programming.
At least some of the smaller owners still care about cherishing their employees and providing them the resources to produce an excellent program, which is definitely an endangered species at tons of stations in all market sizes owned by the behemoths.
Listening to an out-of-town radio station (150-2000+ miles away) used to be fun in the sixties and seventies when the programming was live and compelling instead of being as vanilla and safe as it is today, and where creativity and originality is discouraged.
Syndication can beneficial to a station or it can be a disaster, as was the case here in LA for two radio megastars named Rick Dees & Steve Harvey.
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MikeShannon914
Guest
little1 said:
I could have used something from modern day, and you would have said, "you've blown your theory by degrading today's corporate model and then saying that a current station is doing it right." I know I can't win with you. :'(
Nah, you do have some flashes of that kind of thing around here...Bo and Jim, Cindy and Robert, Jody Dean and his crew, etc. Really, it just depends on how they each "work" the local element. Robert Miguel is a longtime patron of local bands, and sure, he's going to contribute local things that are important to the younger-skewing demo of The Bone. The others, well, you'd be hard-pressed to find one who purposely EXCLUDES anything local...tho many of them (and count Gene-n-Julie in this part) will milque the American Idol/Dancing with the Stars/Survivor elements to DEATH, because that's what they think their female demo wants, ad nauseum. That's a key difference between how Chapman did things and how his heir apparent Jody does things now. To me, there should be a balance between both. The old KVIL adage of "Treat her like the lady she is" doesn't mean one should assume the Lady wallows with the lowest-common denominator of her group. Give her credit for caring about more than just some crap on television.
Oh, and don't forget, the callers can "drive" a show some as well...getting the **LOCAL** pulse, letting the caller give the punch line, etc...these are timeless elements that Chapman orchestrated so well.
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Raymond_Dheo
Guest
I stand corrected. The most listened to News/Talk station in American, WABC, is 100% syndicated.
Great content wins. Listeners vote with their fingers on our buttons.
If being "local" was a way to get great ratings, trust me, there would be a stampede to put local personalities on.
In many cases, it costs a station more in terms of cash and inventory to put on a syndicated show than to have a local show.
You don't think stations saw a drop in costs when Howard went to Sirius?!?!
It's not always about "evil owners" trying to make money by saving money. Today it is about getting what you pay for. Hence my earlier reference to Farid's "You've got to justify your daypart." comment. If a syndicated show can bring in a larger audience, even if it costs the station more, the station is going to do it.
Get real...it's 2008.
Great content wins. Listeners vote with their fingers on our buttons.
If being "local" was a way to get great ratings, trust me, there would be a stampede to put local personalities on.
In many cases, it costs a station more in terms of cash and inventory to put on a syndicated show than to have a local show.
You don't think stations saw a drop in costs when Howard went to Sirius?!?!
It's not always about "evil owners" trying to make money by saving money. Today it is about getting what you pay for. Hence my earlier reference to Farid's "You've got to justify your daypart." comment. If a syndicated show can bring in a larger audience, even if it costs the station more, the station is going to do it.
Get real...it's 2008.
You can win if you've got a well-reasoned argument that makes sense. But my problem with a lot of you guys here is that there's a lot of 'well, back in the old days" syndrome... And while yes, KVIL was great back in teh old days, it would be a lot easier to buyyour argument if you used post-dereg arguments. Like I said, the Ticket is one of teh top 2 billers in teh market, arguably one of the best sports stations in the country, and they have live jocks 5a until whenever Dan patrick comes on (9p? 10p?)MikeShannon914 said:
My problem with teh reliance on KVIL is that they were lightning in a bottle. Great jocks, a mgmt staff that apparently got 'it'. and, oh yeah, a competitive format completely different than today. Anybody want to count the number of signals that have ben added to DFW in the past 28 years?
Oh yeah Mike, one more thing- the factor you need to focus on isn't LOWEST, it's COMMON denominator. Yes, Amer idol may be low on the respect food chain for a lot of us, but it's the highest rated TV show in the country. It's something that even if you don't watch it, odds are you've probably heard about it, know a subplot (oh, there's a local kid on it?) know the format etc.
Ai gets 25-30 million people watching it a week. Call it one in 10 americans.
If the same holds true locally, if we have 5 million people in the metroplex, there's 500K people watching Amer idol. That kind of dwarves the 20K in attendance for a stars or mavs game. (and ratings for either aren't great either, Stars hockey averages less than 1-2% IIRC). It dwarves the number of people seeing a movie at Northpark, or affected by Miller's smoking ban in Dallas restruants, or at Mayfest, or Shakespeare in teh park, or Scarborough faire, or what have you.
You may think it's crap, and I'll agree with you, but it's COMMON. It's something that a majority of your listeners are going to be able to relate to somehow. More so than some of teh examples used earlier...
Ai gets 25-30 million people watching it a week. Call it one in 10 americans.
If the same holds true locally, if we have 5 million people in the metroplex, there's 500K people watching Amer idol. That kind of dwarves the 20K in attendance for a stars or mavs game. (and ratings for either aren't great either, Stars hockey averages less than 1-2% IIRC). It dwarves the number of people seeing a movie at Northpark, or affected by Miller's smoking ban in Dallas restruants, or at Mayfest, or Shakespeare in teh park, or Scarborough faire, or what have you.
You may think it's crap, and I'll agree with you, but it's COMMON. It's something that a majority of your listeners are going to be able to relate to somehow. More so than some of teh examples used earlier...
texas_prwriter said:My question is aimed at KentuckyMedia, because I'm honestly curious: how many of the stations that you work with who have local content are in a market as large as D-FW? The reason I ask: I have a hypothesis that syndicated program works in smaller markets because it doesn't sound, well, small market. I don't think that's as true in Market No. 5. That said, it's just a hypothesis, and I have nothing but my gut to go on. And it is a large gut.
And then, another thing you made me curious about: why local afternoon drive, but not (necessarily) morning? That's interesting to me.
As I continue to follow the discussion, I realized I didn't write properly (multi-tasking, tsk). I meant to ask "How many of the stations that you work with have little or no local content are in a market as large as D-FW?"
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MikeShannon914
Guest
You're right about The Ticket, and I always seem to forget about them...no offense meant. Of course, they can always tie in the old standby, local sports, to pepper any conversation. That's a toughie to fall back on when you have a female-intensive format.
Raymond, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think great content wins, but I think it's stronger when it has a local flavor to it. I also think that radio groups have opted for the cheap route, regardless what the listeners may want...knowing that it will catch on with other radio groups, and pretty soon you're spoonfeeding a substandard ripoff product to the consumer, knowing that there's nothing the consumer can do about it. And your competition's doing pretty much the same, so there's no backlash or threat to worry about. (Well, except when the listener sits and thinks, 'Well, I'm getting nothing compelling from my radio anymore; I get the same 300 songs and heavy commercial load, so why not switch to iPod/satellite/etc...eliminates the commercials, and I get the music choices I want.')
Hence the problem we have in radio today...yes, in 2008. That's about as real as it gets.
Raymond, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think great content wins, but I think it's stronger when it has a local flavor to it. I also think that radio groups have opted for the cheap route, regardless what the listeners may want...knowing that it will catch on with other radio groups, and pretty soon you're spoonfeeding a substandard ripoff product to the consumer, knowing that there's nothing the consumer can do about it. And your competition's doing pretty much the same, so there's no backlash or threat to worry about. (Well, except when the listener sits and thinks, 'Well, I'm getting nothing compelling from my radio anymore; I get the same 300 songs and heavy commercial load, so why not switch to iPod/satellite/etc...eliminates the commercials, and I get the music choices I want.')
Hence the problem we have in radio today...yes, in 2008. That's about as real as it gets.
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busyradioguy
Guest
little1 said:
I'm sure we have as many problems with you, as you have with us. But the bigger picture here is the fact that listeners are complaining that radio today is bad. When your listeners complain, you should be listening to them. They know when they are getting screwed over, and they'll move on to something else that satisfies their needs.
The fact is radio of today is mostly butchered up to cheap, cheap and cheaper. I'm not just talking money here, either.
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