More Consolidation is Not the Answer to Poor Business Decisions

[davideduardo]

I think she's a little bit younger than that. But she's been in radio for most of her life. I got to meet her at a conference a few years ago.

She's one of the good ones. I met her when she called me with a story to tell; an acquaintance asked her if there were enough Algerians in LA to support a radio station because they had seen one on Hollywood Boulevard. Rollye, who knows more about radio than nearly anyone, laughed and said "That is not 'Algeria' but Álegría´which means ´happiness´in Spanish.

It turned out that we had lots of mutual friends, like Tom Rounds and even Jacobs. She is "real radio".

Rollye spent years as a Billboard radio editor and has done talk at many major stations. For a while, she specialize in filling in for "big name" talents who were on vacation or out for illness; stations did not disrupt their schedule and had a very interesting person in to fill who could hold the audience well.

My favorite Rollye story involves the "100 live chicks" you could buy from XERF and have delivered anywhere in the USA. Of course, this was before UPS and FedEx, so the chicks were mailed. Rollye's mom lived in retirement in South Florida, and would gather most days with her Northeastern migrant friends. The postman arrived, the box was opened, and half the chicks had expired. The others jumped out and ran all over the condo unit.

Rollye James - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Or,

 

[davideduardo]

That's my guess, like maybe 73. I really enjoyed meeting her. She was a firecracker.

And still is. On nights at WGN, no less!

Here is one of her projects:

MEDIATRIX - Mid 80's radio market profiles

Mediatrix's monthly publication provided a profile for a different major market as well as interviews, commentary and an economic insighte into the business of radio. Ten issues were published

www.worldradiohistory.com

 

[K.M. Richards]

And still is. On nights at WGN, no less!

Which I mentioned on the previous page.

 

[Identnut]

She's one of the good ones. I met her when she called me with a story to tell; an acquaintance asked her if there were enough Algerians in LA to support a radio station because they had seen one on Hollywood Boulevard.

Maybe the acquaintance saw a billboard with Mrs. Atilano's face on it.

 

[davideduardo]

Maybe the acquaintance saw a billboard with Mrs. Atilano's face on it. View attachment 9079

No, that was back in about 1993 when KKHJ "Radio Alegría" was on Hollywood Blvd. near Wilton just east of the freeway. Big sign said "Radio Alegría". Easy for someone to invert the "g" and the "e".

Omar's last name is "Velasco". It's Argelia who is "Atilano". That show began with them as just two talents who were put together by P.D. José Santos at KLVE. They became a couple, and much of their show is about "being together". Bits like "why is there a fancy towel hung in the bathroom, but I can't use it?" made them very relatable.

 

[Cold Coffee]

What if the FCC would loosen up the rules and allow the big companies to own more stations? This won't change much of anything because they aren't buying.

What about discovering possible new frequencies and allotting them to the FCC's Table of Allocations? I know of some possible new channels for Class A FM's. One of them could serve 100,000 people.

But, I don't think it's a good idea to start new radio stations in 2025.

 

[Mark Roberts]

And still is. On nights at WGN, no less!

Here is one of her projects:

MEDIATRIX - Mid 80's radio market profiles

Mediatrix's monthly publication provided a profile for a different major market as well as interviews, commentary and an economic insighte into the business of radio. Ten issues were published

www.worldradiohistory.com

The Mediatrix profiles are amazing. The research was thorough and deep; the conclusions were insightful. I love her Houston profile, published in 1987. It got just about everything about the market and stations right. It left me wanting more, especially about the rivalry between KTRH and KPRC, which had been going on for years at that point. There definitely was more to the story about KTRH, and its constant turmoil in the mid-1980s, but that alone could have consumed a book. Rollye may have been wise not to have gotten too much involved in that!

I also would have loved to have seen what she could have done with a San Francisco profile. But I bet these profiles were exhausting, and not particularly profitable, so I can understand why that didn’t happen.

 

[boombox4]

If there actually were "a lot of listeners," then they could make a living with it. But factually, there aren't. That's why they're niche formats.

I disagree. There are indeed 'a lot of listeners', but it's on a nationwide scale, as opposed to local. They are part of that group that is indicated by the decline in radio listeners nationwide. When their favorite formats went away, they went away also, for the most part. I mean, if your favorite music is your reason for listening to radio, and radio pulls the plug on it, you're not going to tune to the AC station instead. You'll go online. And leave it there..

I know that many listeners to dead formats like Smooth Jazz just went to Spotify and Pandora and never went back to radio. They're part of the overall decline in listenership nationwide.

In your average radio market, however, I agree with you -- there aren't enough Smooth Jazz, Nu-Metal, Americana, AAA, trad jazz, etc. listeners to support a station. Classical music is probably the next niche that is headed for online only, as it is aging out. I know that some metros have classical stations that get support from donations. But as those donors age out, that format is undoubtedly headed for online only just like Smooth Jazz, Oldies and AAA did.

Some of the ethnic stations get by with broadcasting niches by dayparting the styles of music they play. The south Asian formatted stations seem to play younger sounding Punjabi hip hop earlier in the evening, the 'movie music' late in the evening (for the older demos), and Sikh prayer music overnights (reaching out to another demographic). I don't hear that sort of thing done much on commercial music FM's, though, unless it's a specialty show.

 

[TheBigA]

I disagree. There are indeed 'a lot of listeners', but it's on a nationwide scale, as opposed to local. They are part of that group that is indicated by the decline in radio listeners nationwide.

Radio is local. When radio becomes national like Sirius, then maybe there will be room for those formats.

 

[b-turner]

Classical was again out 40+ years ago. It still is? What some don't seem to grasp is that as we age our tastes change (not all of us but many do). I was easily 45 when I first started listening to classical. I was pretty happy with the local classic rocker.

My Dad died about a month before Covid became a thing. When I was to Top 40, he hated it; made him nervous. Fast forward and he's in his 70s. We're in his car with his choice of radio station. I'm naming off all the songs. He asks how I know these songs. I tell him this was the stuff that made him nervous years before. He asks if I have heard of Bob Seger. He says he's heard several of his songs and really likes them. Night Moves drover him up the wall he last minute or so of the song. He says he loves it and can relate to the song and his vocals at the end of the song. So, he moved from Mantovani and Statler Brothers to the likes of Bob Seger, Barry White and Little River Band.

My point is musical tastes change for many. Radio (over the air or streamed) might before important to those 18 year olds in another 20-25 years.

You might just find another batch of those 'aging out' classical listeners as well.

 

[bobdavcav]

With all these formats aging, it seems like at some point, public stations will only be doing news/talk. How can they sustain other music formats if everything they do is aging out? Also, why is AAA aging so badly? My local commercial AAA is almost indistinguishable from a Modern AC. At times, they'll go back farther than you'd typically hear on Modern AC in 2025, and they play a few more live performances not typical of Modern AC, but I do not see how that's a totally different demographic than the competing Hot AC or Alternative stations, which happen to be co-owned. I see this in a lot of commercial AAA stations, those operated by public broadcasters could be doing anything. Not being an avid AAA listener I'm not sure of all the different variations, but it seems at least commercially, that there's lots of overlap between already commercially successful formats.

 

[TheBigA]

With all these formats aging, it seems like at some point, public stations will only be doing news/talk. How can they sustain other music formats if everything they do is aging out? Also, why is AAA aging so badly? My local commercial AAA is almost indistinguishable from a Modern AC.

That's probably why you should be listening to the public AAAs. Because public radio is locally owned, the presentation of music formats is all locally done. That means that Buffalo's WBFO The Bridge sounds very different from Nashville's WNXP, and they both sound very different from Seattle's KEXP or Philadelphia's WXPN. Yet they're all considered to be the same format.

While there's hope for new music presentation in public radio, it might become collateral damage in the battle over CPB funding. The government money goes to all public radio, not just news. So if the government defunds CPB, it will also hurt the music stations, like the four I mentioned. That's too bad because those stations are often the only ones playing that music in their areas.

 

[ted chittenden]

With all these formats aging, it seems like at some point, public stations will only be doing news/talk. How can they sustain other music formats if everything they do is aging out? Also, why is AAA aging so badly? My local commercial AAA is almost indistinguishable from a Modern AC. At times, they'll go back farther than you'd typically hear on Modern AC in 2025, and they play a few more live performances not typical of Modern AC, but I do not see how that's a totally different demographic than the competing Hot AC or Alternative stations, which happen to be co-owned. I see this in a lot of commercial AAA stations, those operated by public broadcasters could be doing anything. Not being an avid AAA listener I'm not sure of all the different variations, but it seems at least commercially, that there's lots of overlap between already commercially successful formats.

Actually, that has been true almost all along, especially with the commercial formats. On the old "American Top 40," shows for instance, before playing the #1 song (sometimes directly, sometimes a couple of numbers back), Casey Kasem would list the #1 songs on the R&B, country and album charts. And guess what! In many cases, the #1s on those charts were usually somewhere in the Billboard top 40 chart that Casey was playing. The #1 album wasn't played but a song from that album was usually somewhere in the top 40 for that week; ditto the songs from the other charts mentioned. Of the three other charts listed, country was really the only one that was the odd man out, especially during the mid-1980s when country songs didn't routinely cross over to the pop charts.

You can also peruse the local station surveys from the past at the ARSA survey site (now you have to create a free account to do so). While the site focuses on top-40 outlets, there are plenty of surveys from R&B, AC, MOR, and country stations available there. And guess what! Though not every song on each survey was a crossover hit by any means, enough are to prove the point that crossover hits do occur quite a bit of the time.

And all of this makes absolute sense! Keep in mind that top-40 radio started out as being about playing the most popular songs, usually by listener requests, no matter what format they were actually in. Initially, because of segregation, R&B artists had a very hard time making local top-40 playlists but the birth of rock and roll (whose primary source was R&B with some country-style guitar thrown in), the civil rights movement, and desegregation changed all of that!

 

[davideduardo]

Keep in mind that top-40 radio started out as being about playing the most popular songs, usually by listener requests, no matter what format they were actually in.

Top 40 began by getting data on jukebox plays in Omaha at KOWH. Once they got that down, they got data on record sales at local stores.

Initially, because of segregation, R&B artists had a very hard time making local top-40 playlists but the birth of rock and roll (whose primary source was R&B with some country-style guitar thrown in), the civil rights movement, and desegregation changed all of that!

I'd disagree that the primary source of rock and was just R&B. The mid-50's sound was just as much "Rock Around the Clock", Peggy Sue" and "Wake Up Little Susy" as it was Little Richard and Fats Domino.

Once Top 40 moved to more racially diverse markets, like Todd Storz' WTIX in New Orleans, there were plenty of Black artists included.

 

[TheBigA]

I'd disagree that the primary source of rock and was just R&B. The mid-50's sound was just as much "Rock Around the Clock", Peggy Sue" and "Wake Up Little Susy" as it was Little Richard and Fats Domino.

However, neither Little Richard nor Fats Domino ever had a #1 pop single. Fats came the closest with Blueberry Hill at #2.

 

[davideduardo]

However, neither Little Richard nor Fats Domino ever had a #1 pop single. Fats came the closest with Blueberry Hill at #2. But Pat Boone's version went #1.

Knowing how charts were manipulated in the mid to late 50's, I'd be a bit skeptical of actual ranks.

 

[TheBigA]

Knowing how charts were manipulated in the mid to late 50's, I'd be a bit skeptical of actual ranks.

It would only take one major market in the south not playing a song to keep it from #1.

 

[davideduardo]

It would only take one major market in the south not playing a song to keep it from #1.

And that kind of thing was what inspired Gavin to start his "tip sheet".

 

[bobdavcav]

That's probably why you should be listening to the public AAAs. Because public radio is locally owned, the presentation of music formats is all locally done. That means that Buffalo's WBFO The Bridge sounds very different from Nashville's WNXP, and they both sound very different from Seattle's KEXP or Philadelphia's WXPN. Yet they're all considered to be the same format.

While there's hope for new music presentation in public radio, it might become collateral damage in the battle over CPB funding. The government money goes to all public radio, not just news. So if the government defunds CPB, it will also hurt the music stations, like the four I mentioned. That's too bad because those stations are often the only ones playing that music in their areas.

I think you missed my point, but you also bring up another good one.
1. How is it that at least commercially, AAA is aging out when the three major components of the format, Hot AC, Alternative, and Classic Rock, are still fairly healthy? I really don't understand how if we were looking at this 10 years ago, KINK/Portland and KLCK/Seattle could have attracted drastically different audiences when probably 80% of their playlist was similar.
2. Is AAA done by public radio stations having the same demographic issues it is on the commercial side?

 

[TheBigA]

2. Is AAA done by public radio stations having the same demographic issues it is on the commercial side?

Depends on the station. KEXP consistently does well in 18-34. WXPN is over 55. But it doesn't matter, since they're not trying to appeal to advertisers. That's why I always say this format is much better for non-commercial. The heritage KINK has helped (as well as the city), but I sense that heritage needs a refresh. A station that plays Teddy Swims, The Beatles, and Red Hot Chili Peppers is quite a range.