More food for thought

[KB1OKL]

"In my opinion HD Radio has been a terrible distraction at a time when traditional radio is facing challenges as great as its ever faced. Not to mention the fact that thus far it has been a massive failure on multiple fronts--consumer confusion or disinterest leading to only a reported half million radios sold. It is safe to say finding an HD Radio in the hands of a listener would be as difficult as finding the proverbial needle in the haystack. How many of those radios are in the hands of radio people?"

http://harvealan.blogspot.com/2007/12/hd-radio-blues.html

I think I can answer his rhetorical question: 95% or more are in the hands of radio people, either pro or con.

 

[R.F. Burns]

What facts can you base this on? Can you assertain your statement is factual or is it just more hopeful opinion?

 

[KB1OKL]

What facts can you base this on? Can you assertain your statement is factual or is it just more hopeful opinion?

It is neither, it is an educated guess.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Well lets see a guess. Now you said its educated. What educational background do you have in medium wave propagation?

Let's see how Guess is defined:

verb (used with object) 1. to arrive at or commit oneself to an opinion about (something) without having sufficient evidence to support the opinion fully: to guess a person's weight.

Do you work in broadcast sales? Are you familiar with sales trends as they relate to AM broadcast facilities and how the aging demographic is causing sales declines every year? There are very few AM's with a healthy outlook. many like WABC in NYC while getting good overall numbers are so heavily weighted towards the oldest members of our society, 65 plus, that the 10 year projection for AM facilities is not a happy story. I am not saying that IBOC is the cure but somethig must be done to make current AM facilities audio acceptable to a younger (more saleable) audience. While a mom and pop might be OK selling local advertsing, in the major markets, who rely on agency sales even with the enormous spot loads currently being run by these stations in an hour, profits at many of these facilities isn't even 50% of a typical co-market FM facility.

 

[amfmsw]

OK fellas, here's some food for thought. You're both right.

But digital / analog hybrid won't solve anything as long as the programming is simulcast. What MAY work is allowing the AM's to broadcast different programming on each...say AAA on the digital chain, News/Talk on analog.

However, you still have 58 year-olds talking to 58 year-olds. If you want to get younger AM listeners, you need younger AM talkers. Why NOT have 19 year-olds hosting talk shows? They have views, opinions, lifestyles, needs too. Isn't that what made Top 40 Radio so successful in the first place?

Younger AM content will bring younger AM listeners.

 

[KB1OKL]

Well lets see a guess. Now you said its educated. What educational background do you have in medium wave propagation?

Let's see how Guess is defined:

verb (used with object) 1. to arrive at or commit oneself to an opinion about (something) without having sufficient evidence to support the opinion fully: to guess a person's weight.

Do you work in broadcast sales? Are you familiar with sales trends as they relate to AM broadcast facilities and how the aging demographic is causing sales declines every year? There are very few AM's with a healthy outlook. many like WABC in NYC while getting good overall numbers are so heavily weighted towards the oldest members of our society, 65 plus, that the 10 year projection for AM facilities is not a happy story. I am not saying that IBOC is the cure but somethig must be done to make current AM facilities audio acceptable to a younger (more saleable) audience. While a mom and pop might be OK selling local advertsing, in the major markets, who rely on agency sales even with the enormous spot loads currently being run by these stations in an hour, profits at many of these facilities isn't even 50% of a typical co-market FM facility.

The top paragraph in my first post was from a blog, I didn't write it. My educated guess was that 95% of iBOC radios are in the hands of radio pros, pro and con. Read the whole blog , click the link in my first post, that is what is food for thought, not the blurb which I snipped out of it.

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

But digital / analog hybrid won't solve anything as long as the programming is simulcast. What MAY work is allowing the AM's to broadcast different programming on each...say AAA on the digital chain, News/Talk on analog.

Nice idea, but...that's exactly where the AM version of the IBOC system shows its warts and pimples.

With the digital injection levels as low as they are now, it wouldn't make much sense to individually program the analog and digital parts of the AM signal. It wouldn't (in most cases) provide an acceptable listening experience for the HD listener with the dropouts, and it still does nothing to reverse the minor amount of so-called "self-jamming" that occurs to the main analog signal with the current hybrid system.

Raise the injection levels of the HD, and then you see the minor brushfires in the anti-HD camp turn into some sort of all out Holy War.

In any event, Mr. Eduardo is probably right in that AM may already be too late to save from what I like to call "short-wave-dom".

It's really easy to imagine that, as AM station values drop, you'll see a lot more players enter the arena who now make do with a combination of internet streaming and shortwave to get thier message out.

More helpings of Pastor Peter J. Peters, Harold Camping, Brother Stair, and Alex Jones, anyone?

 

[Play Freebird]

"In my opinion HD Radio has been a terrible distraction at a time when traditional radio is facing challenges as great as its ever faced. Not to mention the fact that thus far it has been a massive failure on multiple fronts--consumer confusion or disinterest leading to only a reported half million radios sold.

http://harvealan.blogspot.com/2007/12/hd-radio-blues.html

The blog you referenced ties right in with a recent epsiode of the PBS show "Bill Moyers Journal" which I found interesting. We may have reached a point in our society where consumers are starting to figure out they don't have to buy all these needless products which are constantly being "pushed" on them. If you can spare a few minutes, here the link to the first segment of this program (parts 2 and 3 of the interview are also linked from this page):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOYYDu1LVrA

Watch the show and you'll probably realize that HD Radio (at least in its current stage of development) is yet another example of corporate "push", rather than consumer or listener "pull". It is any wonder receiver sales haven't lived up to expectations?

In the interview, Moyers' guest Benjamin Barber uses the term "infantilize" to describe the tactics advertisers frequently use to put adults into the "gimme this, gimme that" buying mode. An good example might be some of those HD Alliance promotional spots -- for example, the dudes talking about how owning an HD radio will make them popular with the babes. Gimme a break!

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Raise the injection levels of the HD, and then you see the minor brushfires in the anti-HD camp turn into some sort of all out Holy War.

I was alarmed at how poorly AM HD works. Local KMKI 620 is a blowtorch with a half million square mile footprint - I can hear them clear and static free over 300 miles to the West in the daytime. So how does HD work on them where they are supposed to be heard, locally in Plano, TX? You would think with a blowtorch signal like that - HD would work just a few miles from the towers. No. I had to use a two foot box loop antenna - intended for serious AM DX - just to get HD to decode. A Terk AM Advantage occasionally gets lock - but no good for reliable HD reception.

Local Blowtorch 50kW WBAP was not much better. Neither was KLIF, KRLD, or other strong local HD signals. Local KAAM would not decode HD no matter what antenna I hooked up. Nothing wrong with the receiver - the Sangean HDT-1X was amazing with that two foot loop, all kinds of daytime DX including KOA Denver 800 miles away (a local 850 was off the air Christmas day). So you can't point at the receiver being at fault. Neither the antenna - the Q isn't that great.

This is alarming - I don't see how Tom Ray gets the results he reports, there is no way WOR has a bigger footprint than KMKI or WBAP. Yet neither of them give any HD reception at all with the supplied AM loop, spotty with the AM Advantage, and only dependable with a serious AM DX antenna.

 

[KB1OKL]

Raise the injection levels of the HD, and then you see the minor brushfires in the anti-HD camp turn into some sort of all out Holy War.

I was alarmed at how poorly AM HD works. Local KMKI 620 is a blowtorch with a half million square mile footprint - I can hear them clear and static free over 300 miles to the West in the daytime. So how does HD work on them where they are supposed to be heard, locally in Plano, TX? You would think with a blowtorch signal like that - HD would work just a few miles from the towers. No. I had to use a two foot box loop antenna - intended for serious AM DX - just to get HD to decode. A Terk AM Advantage occasionally gets lock - but no good for reliable HD reception.

Local Blowtorch 50kW WBAP was not much better. Neither was KLIF, KRLD, or other strong local HD signals. Local KAAM would not decode HD no matter what antenna I hooked up. Nothing wrong with the receiver - the Sangean HDT-1X was amazing with that two foot loop, all kinds of daytime DX including KOA Denver 800 miles away (a local 850 was off the air Christmas day). So you can't point at the receiver being at fault. Neither the antenna - the Q isn't that great.

This is alarming - I don't see how Tom Ray gets the results he reports, there is no way WOR has a bigger footprint than KMKI or WBAP. Yet neither of them give any HD reception at all with the supplied AM loop, spotty with the AM Advantage, and only dependable with a serious AM DX antenna.

Yes, but it's amazing at how far the noisy sidebands can go isn't it? You think maybe the signal's are inside out? one of the original engineers had the schematics upside down or something? ;D

 

[Chuck]

Yes, but it's amazing at how far the noisy sidebands can go isn't it? You think maybe the signal's are inside out? one of the original engineers had the schematics upside down or something? ;D

If the audible sidebands stopped more or less at the same place the ability to decode HD stopped, this would not be a problem.

 

[Tom Wells]

Saturday before Christmas, I went to a Radio Shack where I had heard the Accurian doing a pretty good job decoding AM HD despite
thunderstorms moving through. It was now on a different wall. 12 had been sold recently. The demo model had the loop laying flat, the extension leads bundled and cable tied to the loop. It was useless. I explained to the guy what and why, and within 3 minutes had
a solid receive of WLS from 35 miles away. This store is small and freestanding, but still has a zillion other things making noise.
He listened a little while, and I asked him about the sound of the codec. He did not think it sounded acceptable.

 

[Radioman100]

Saturday before Christmas, I went to a Radio Shack where I had heard the Accurian doing a pretty good job decoding AM HD despite
thunderstorms moving through. It was now on a different wall. 12 had been sold recently. The demo model had the loop laying flat, the extension leads bundled and cable tied to the loop. It was useless. I explained to the guy what and why, and within 3 minutes had
a solid receive of WLS from 35 miles away. This store is small and freestanding, but still has a zillion other things making noise.
He listened a little while, and I asked him about the sound of the codec. He did not think it sounded acceptable.

It's important to note that the HD Radio codec may not have been the only one you were listening to. Much of the Saturday schedule on WLS is syndicated, which means it's low bitrate MPEG audio, most likely from a Starguide satellite receiver. The rest is infomercials (most likely delivered to the station as an MP3) or sports, most likely delivered via ISDN and any number of codecs.

Cascading algorithms, particularly low bitrate audio to low bitrate audio produces very noticable artifacts. You get MUCH better results out of HD on FM if you start with linear audio.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

So HD radio is incompatible with most of the usual radio station audio recording/playback, remote/stl, and sponsor/agency/network/syndicater audio delivery methods?

The stations must also change most of their procedures, methods, equipment, etc., just because HD radio is incompatible and creates additional new artifacts?

All for a very few listeners who are foolish enough to buy an HD radio?

Why bother!

 

[R.F. Burns]

Incompatible? NO. What HD shows is the weakness's of the rest of the audio chain. That's why we are shifting from compressed storage to linear storage. Radio is looking at new methods of program storage and delivery. The new satellite delivery method is MP4 as opposed to MP2, which is what the present Starguide system uses.

 

[Savage]

As has been noted here before, HD's codec also has problems dealing with highly processed audio - the artifacting starts to pile up again. What solution is proposed for the system to deal in a real-world fashion with third-party audio that inevitably has to air from other sources, such as agency-produced spots and syndicated or recorded shows?

Then there are the problems with how the HD codec handles the human voice. There are many complaints that the "replicated" audio range above 4.5 kHz produces a fatiguing chorus effect on voice content - an ironic fault for a system touted as being the answer for the AM band, where the preponderant formats use voice and not music. See Tom Wells' comment from the shopkeeper.

Doesn't like satellite compression. Doesn't like audio compression, but even though processing must be dialed back, it doesn't like large variations in audio levels, requiring scrupulous control in an era of largely unattended station operation. Doesn't like the audio content comprising the vast majority of AM format offerings.

Doesn't sound like HD as conceived can successfully relate to typical industry operating conditions. How many concessions is radio supposed to make to accomodate an innovation widely thought to have dubious merit in the first place?

 

[Radioman100]

As has been noted here before, HD's codec also has problems dealing with highly processed audio - the artifacting starts to pile up again. What solution is proposed for the system to deal in a real-world fashion with third-party audio that inevitably has to air from other sources, such as agency-produced spots and syndicated or recorded shows?

Then there are the problems with how the HD codec handles the human voice. There are many complaints that the "replicated" audio range above 4.5 kHz produces a fatiguing chorus effect on voice content - an ironic fault for a system touted as being the answer for the AM band, where the preponderant formats use voice and not music. See Tom Wells' comment from the shopkeeper.

Doesn't like satellite compression. Doesn't like audio compression, but even though processing must be dialed back, it doesn't like large variations in audio levels, requiring scrupulous control in an era of largely unattended station operation. Doesn't like the audio content comprising the vast majority of AM format offerings.

Doesn't sound like HD as conceived can successfully relate to typical industry operating conditions. How many concessions is radio supposed to make to accomodate an innovation widely thought to have dubious merit in the first place?

Bitrate reduced audio became a part of broadcasting originally because hard disk space was expensive. Now it's cheap and plentiful. There are many reasons for a station to go linear that have nothing to do with HD Radio, codec STLs and online streaming efforts being chief among them, but there are others.

I suspect major efforts will be made to improve the technical quality of syndicated talk programming in the near future anyway. Have you ever listened to Rush Limbaugh on an FM? The extent of data reduction Premiere is using in distributing that show is appalling, and not really apparent on AM, but you definitely notice it on FM. As the powerhouse AM stations continue their migration to FM, this is going to be clearly unacceptable.

 

[Tom Wells]

As has been noted here before, HD's codec also has problems dealing with highly processed audio - the artifacting starts to pile up again. What solution is proposed for the system to deal in a real-world fashion with third-party audio that inevitably has to air from other sources, such as agency-produced spots and syndicated or recorded shows?

Then there are the problems with how the HD codec handles the human voice. There are many complaints that the "replicated" audio range above 4.5 kHz produces a fatiguing chorus effect on voice content - an ironic fault for a system touted as being the answer for the AM band, where the preponderant formats use voice and not music. See Tom Wells' comment from the shopkeeper.

Doesn't like satellite compression. Doesn't like audio compression, but even though processing must be dialed back, it doesn't like large variations in audio levels, requiring scrupulous control in an era of largely unattended station operation. Doesn't like the audio content comprising the vast majority of AM format offerings.

Doesn't sound like HD as conceived can successfully relate to typical industry operating conditions. How many concessions is radio supposed to make to accomodate an innovation widely thought to have dubious merit in the first place?

Bitrate reduced audio became a part of broadcasting originally because hard disk space was expensive. Now it's cheap and plentiful. There are many reasons for a station to go linear that have nothing to do with HD Radio, codec STLs and online streaming efforts being chief among them, but there are others.

I suspect major efforts will be made to improve the technical quality of syndicated talk programming in the near future anyway. Have you ever listened to Rush Limbaugh on an FM? The extent of data reduction Premiere is using in distributing that show is appalling, and not really apparent on AM, but you definitely notice it on FM. As the powerhouse AM stations continue their migration to FM, this is going to be clearly unacceptable.

Not apparent? I have been grating my teeth ever since they began using that appalling codec and I've never heard Rush on an FM.
I could hear the grating on narrowband AMs in GM rental cars!

Stations made the jump to digital way too soon, as noted above. Now they must "go linear" which means "something more like analog"... hmmm.
At the Radio Shack, were hearing a local announce and stopset.