More HD AM comments

[KB1OKL]

I understand what you're saying but I'm speaking from a consumer's perspective.

Actually, YOU'RE NOT.

You're speaking from a DXers standpoint. I understand you and hear you, but you are NOT "Speaking from a consumer's perspective". You are speakling from a Sub Sub Sub Sub Subset of AM radio listeners - The DXer. You are NOT the typical consumer perspective. Not even tangientially related. You must understand that if you are ever to see what is going on. (Whether you agree with it or not).

It just seems like radio is doing everything wrong, Canada for example is moving many of their AM stations to FM (not digital) which to my mind is crazy because you lose the range. I thought it was great driving all that way and being able to listen to the same station, I know they have no immediate plans to move CHWO though. I was not DXing last night I was being entertained both by CHWO and Coast to Coast.

You are out of the listening area. You are a DXER. I will credit you for your steadfast claiming that listening to programming instead of pulling a station out of the grass is not DXing, but CHWO barely reaches Watertown, NY at night with out DX.

YOU'RE JUST WRONG HERE. You are a DXER.

Consumers couldn't care less about commercials in fact hate them so I would think radio would do things to attract more listeners not repel them.

Not trying to be mean, but this CLEARLY shows why you do not understand the economics of radio. I can understand that. You are a licensed radio AMATEUR. (As am I)
You just do not understand that radio owners do not have a day job like you and I, that funds their "Hobby". They gotta pay for it. No one at a commercial station should be selling Kenmores at Sears so you can get no commercials. That will NOT get good programming.

I know the bloc of 350 ads in a row makes me turn the station off every time and I usually don't go back to it.

Well since virtually every radio station in the country has stopsets that have multiple commercials, I would suspect you would have run out of stations a long time ago if your "usually don't go back to it" statement was true.

(or turn it way down so I don't have to listen to them) . Radio is doing everything to cut the range and/or jam adjacents with IBOC and Canada is moving many of their AM's to FM which also cuts the range, but at the same time stations are now accessible on the internet worldwide, which approach is ultimately going to be successful? It would be a different story if local stations had local content but 99.9% of them don't, so why local commercials? I think somethings is backwards here. I don't think self serving is the answer.

I'm sure you think you have this all worked out. I'll tell you the same thing I tell all the teenagers Move out before your parents values corrupt you.

In the meantime...

Sit back, have a colortini and watch the pictures and sounds fly through the air.

Or maybe you could try and tune in New Zealand. It's all equally relevant. None of this has much to do with commercial radio.

Not mean... Honest.

Clouseau.

I guess I'm a full time DX'er then well because only one station locally comes up my way, all the rest are fringes or distantly challenged.

Exactly my point. When I'm sitting at the old R-390A trying to pick up Radio Sweden on 1179 with my phaser and 2 400' LW antennas and my 160M dipole, then I'm a DXer, when I'm in car hitting scan on the AM band at night flying up the highway as so many people do then I'm a consumer, I'm not DXing at all, I just want something decent to listen to and I happen to like AM better than FM at night especially when driving long distance. AM excels at that as it goes 100's of miles easily at night. This may meet the letter of the definition of DX: distance, but this is not DXing in my book. DXing really sucks lately in my book, IBOC and overcrowded band conditions do not make me want to sit for hours chasing signals for the sake of chasing signals.

 

[Savage]

(Looping Jeopardy theme)

Let's try again, shall we? Calling "HD-AM CQ....."

Reply #6, this thread....what's the SPECIFIC meaning of "AM stations aren't entitled to coverage outside their NIF" with respect to IBOC? What's the definition of "NIF?" Where's the Commission rule or proposed rule on this? Cases interpreting this issue?

Anyone??

How about this: define for me the bright line which now apparently exists, post-IBOC, between "local/groundwave" and "skywave." If the groundwave conflicts with/mixes with the skywave - as is frequently the case in AM nighttime service - which one gets precedence in resolution of interference matters?

How about it? Can anyone resolve for us, the glaring logical and engineering faults these arguments entail?

If another 24 hours or so tick by with no REAL response - which by definition would be one that isn't just more uninformed rote chanting of pro-IBOC talking points - I think we can all assume that "you're only entitled to coverage outside your NIF" is total crap, nonsense which was made up by HD boosters to try (unsuccessfully) to defuse the preposterous, unsolveable nighttime skywave interference problems inherent in HD-AM Radio.

(Psst. Here's a little "hint." It's a thing called the FCC First Report and Order (2002) on IBOC.)

 

[Play Freebird]

(Psst. Here's a little "hint." It's a thing called the FCC First Report and Order (2002) on IBOC.)

In the interest of maintaining a rational discussion, I recommend that we all go back and review this document. It can be found at:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-02-286A1.pdf

Note in particular Paragraphs 19, 21, and 25.

 

[Savage]

Thank you, Freebird. And let us also consider:

a. The last sentence of par. 24.

b. Clear Channel's position regarding primary digital carrier power reduction at night to mitigate
adjacent-channel prorblems, par. 27.

c. The safety-valve interference relief provision on par. 29.

It's my legal and engineering opinion that some of the language from the "First Report And Order" has been taken out of context from various passages in that document, and has been cobbled together by HD boosters who want to adopt a position that "you're only entitled to your NIF" on the AM band.

The FCC's policy expressed in the "First Report And Order" does not actually make this statement.

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

Just this morning, there was a blurb on the news where the BBC either already has (or will very soon)...discontinue its english language SW broadcasts to Europe, thus accelerating the already strong trend of major broadcasters abandoning the SW portion of the spectrum.

It would be really hard to argue that the AM hybrid in-band approach has been anything other than a great disappointment. Wouldn't this mass migration of broadcasters leaving SW open up a possibility for an 'out-of-band' solution for the problems being faced by Bob Savage, and the rest of the AM community?

In the absence of the much coveted and drooled-over (but unlikely to be freed-up) 76-88 MHz, the SW spectrum might offer the most logical approach to offering each AM broadcaster a 100 percent digital signal (DRM or Ibiquity flavor), while retaining its analog service on MW. Mapping technology for recievers should alleviate any confusion on the listeners' end of things.

Obviously, this makes too much sense, so nothing will come of it...

 

[R.F. Burns]

Just this morning, there was a blurb on the news where the BBC either already has (or will very soon)...discontinue its english language SW broadcasts to Europe, thus accelerating the already strong trend of major broadcasters abandoning the SW portion of the spectrum.

It would be really hard to argue that the AM hybrid in-band approach has been anything other than a great disappointment. Wouldn't this mass migration of broadcasters leaving SW open up a possibility for an 'out-of-band' solution for the problems being faced by Bob Savage, and the rest of the AM community?

In the absence of the much coveted and drooled-over (but unlikely to be freed-up) 76-88 MHz, the SW spectrum might offer the most logical approach to offering each AM broadcaster a 100 percent digital signal (DRM or Ibiquity flavor), while retaining its analog service on MW. Mapping technology for recievers should alleviate any confusion on the listeners' end of things.

Obviously, this makes too much sense, so nothing will come of it...

Too much sense? The SW BCB has the folllowing characteristics; excellent skywave propagation and lousy groundwave propagation. What that means is that a station located in Seattle would do a better job of serving NYC than a station located in Paterson, NJ, some 20 miles from NYC. Creating a all digital band in the short wave broadcast spectrum would make no sense at all.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The days of a single spot serving the entire country are coming to an end. With that in mind, what good is it for a sponsor of a station in Chicago to have their spot heard in Pittsburgh. Radio is a business, not a hobby and unless you can earn a profit from it, you will go out of business. DXing and AM radio are going the way of silent pictures. Sure some older folks and DXers might have fond memories but they aren't relevent in todays marketplace.

Uh - most radio ads I'm hearing on the radio are for NATIONAL goods, services, and chains. They are just as relevant for listeners anywhere.

DX'ers are not always quaint old-timers gathering around the warm glow of tubes and remembering the good old days. Hurricane Katrina created hundreds of thousands of refugees, who were not able to access the internet easily, but relied on WWL for reports from home because they all had radios. I was helping out at the shelters. Add to that - people who move and want to stay connected to their old home town / listen to old home town sports. Sure, you can get it streaming, but not everybody goes to the trouble of booting up a computer to activate a stream. The radio in the corner, still tuned to the old home town station after a move - works a lot easier at night. And people are increasingly mobile. DX'ing as a hobby may be dying, but there are a lot more people listening for content not available locally - who could care less about QSL's. bragging rights, and boat anchors. They may not even know what the term DX means, but they are doing it. Otherwise, why would the 50 kW blowtorches be advertising goods, services, and chain stores that are national? Somebody knows skywave happens ---

Look beyond the ratings to the way people really use radio, and maybe you will actually find a potential for profit you didn't think you had. If I were a station owner, I'd be looking for ways to squeeze more advertising revenue out of my station. If I can do that by having sales go to Walmart and say "our nighttime signal covers ten times the population of just one city, and you've got 137 stores within that area - put ads on our station at night and it will be like ads over 25% of the area of the United States!" That would be especially effective if I was carrying a popular talk show or sports franchise.

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

Too much sense? The SW BCB has the folllowing characteristics; excellent skywave propagation and lousy groundwave propagation. What that means is that a station located in Seattle would do a better job of serving NYC than a station located in Paterson, NJ, some 20 miles from NYC. Creating a all digital band in the short wave broadcast spectrum would make no sense at all.

If the 'skywave suppression' technology that the 26MHzUS.com folks have been going on about actually works, then perhaps that could be employed in either reducing or eliminating the 'dreaded and evil' skywaves.

In any event, an 'out of band' approach would still seem to make the most sense, and would be a lot more constructive than what the AM community has had to endure thus far.

I'm open to suggestions......Assuming that 76-88 MHz if forbidden for all eternity, and that SW is so woefully skywave prone, can anyone else scare up a few megahertz someplace to offer relief for the AM community?

Or would you all just rather continue waltzing around the nightime NIF argument?

 

[Play Freebird]

I'm open to suggestions......Assuming that 76-88 MHz if forbidden for all eternity, and that SW is so woefully skywave prone, can anyone else scare up a few megahertz someplace to offer relief for the AM community?

I'm not convinced that 76-88 is out of the question. The reason the FCC shunned this option in 2002 was a concern that Channel 6 would still be needed for TV after 2009, but the most recent DTV post-transition Table of Allocations shows that most existing stations have voluntarily chosen to abandon this spectrum. A similar situation exists with Channel 5.

Do we really want this spectrum taken away from broadcasting, when it could solve the AM IBOC problem? Use it or lose it.

The NAB has wasted so much of their members' money fighting silly "threats" like third-adjacent LPFM and satellite. They really need to turn to a productive campaign and lead a movement to designate this 12 MHz VHF segment for shared use by AM licensees.

 

[R.F. Burns]

The days of a single spot serving the entire country are coming to an end. With that in mind, what good is it for a sponsor of a station in Chicago to have their spot heard in Pittsburgh. Radio is a business, not a hobby and unless you can earn a profit from it, you will go out of business. DXing and AM radio are going the way of silent pictures. Sure some older folks and DXers might have fond memories but they aren't relevent in todays marketplace.

Uh - most radio ads I'm hearing on the radio are for NATIONAL goods, services, and chains. They are just as relevant for listeners anywhere.
DX'ers are not always quaint old-timers gathering around the warm glow of tubes and remembering the good old days. Hurricane Katrina created hundreds of thousands of refugees, who were not able to access the internet easily, but relied on WWL for reports from home because they all had radios. I was helping out at the shelters. Add to that - people who move and want to stay connected to their old home town / listen to old home town sports. Sure, you can get it streaming, but not everybody goes to the trouble of booting up a computer to activate a stream. The radio in the corner, still tuned to the old home town station after a move - works a lot easier at night. And people are increasingly mobile. DX'ing as a hobby may be dying, but there are a lot more people listening for content not available locally - who could care less about QSL's. bragging rights, and boat anchors. They may not even know what the term DX means, but they are doing it. Otherwise, why would the 50 kW blowtorches be advertising goods, services, and chain stores that are national? Somebody knows skywave happens ---

Look beyond the ratings to the way people really use radio, and maybe you will actually find a potential for profit you didn't think you had. If I were a station owner, I'd be looking for ways to squeeze more advertising revenue out of my station. If I can do that by having sales go to Walmart and say "our nighttime signal covers ten times the population of just one city, and you've got 137 stores within that area - put ads on our station at night and it will be like ads over 25% of the area of the United States!" That would be especially effective if I was carrying a popular talk show or sports franchise.

Forgive me but the hilighted statement shows you aren't aware of how national advertising is done today. At the network level we are moving aweay from regional advertising to spots aimed at local markets. This is done by store and forwarding individule spots to a hard drive located in the receiver at each station and when the stop set begins the receiver see's a flag which causes the receiver to switch from the satellite fed to its internal hard drive. That is the future, not the other way around. By the way, its interesting that you brought up Katrina. In Manhattan during 9/11 cell phone service was interupted as was the internet and ISDN usage. Thankfully those occurances are few and far between and if we really want to get down to the most efficiant form of emergency communications, every child would be taught CW. CW is the simplest and most efficiant form of comunications.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Too much sense? The SW BCB has the folllowing characteristics; excellent skywave propagation and lousy groundwave propagation. What that means is that a station located in Seattle would do a better job of serving NYC than a station located in Paterson, NJ, some 20 miles from NYC. Creating a all digital band in the short wave broadcast spectrum would make no sense at all.

If the 'skywave suppression' technology that the 26MHzUS.com folks have been going on about actually works, then perhaps that could be employed in either reducing or eliminating the 'dreaded and evil' skywaves.

In any event, an 'out of band' approach would still seem to make the most sense, and would be a lot more constructive than what the AM community has had to endure thus far.

I'm open to suggestions......Assuming that 76-88 MHz if forbidden for all eternity, and that SW is so woefully skywave prone, can anyone else scare up a few megahertz someplace to offer relief for the AM community?

Or would you all just rather continue waltzing around the nightime NIF argument?

The best method of supressing skywave activity at 26 Mhz is to wait for the bottom of the 11 year cycle.

 

[KB1OKL]

Too much sense? The SW BCB has the folllowing characteristics; excellent skywave propagation and lousy groundwave propagation. What that means is that a station located in Seattle would do a better job of serving NYC than a station located in Paterson, NJ, some 20 miles from NYC. Creating a all digital band in the short wave broadcast spectrum would make no sense at all.

If the 'skywave suppression' technology that the 26MHzUS.com folks have been going on about actually works, then perhaps that could be employed in either reducing or eliminating the 'dreaded and evil' skywaves.

In any event, an 'out of band' approach would still seem to make the most sense, and would be a lot more constructive than what the AM community has had to endure thus far.

I'm open to suggestions......Assuming that 76-88 MHz if forbidden for all eternity, and that SW is so woefully skywave prone, can anyone else scare up a few megahertz someplace to offer relief for the AM community?

Or would you all just rather continue waltzing around the nightime NIF argument?

The best method of supressing skywave activity at 26 Mhz is to wait for the bottom of the 11 year cycle.

That is where we are right now.

 

[clouseau]

If the 'skywave suppression' technology that the 26MHzUS.com folks have been going on about actually works, then perhaps that could be employed in either reducing or eliminating the 'dreaded and evil' skywaves.

In a non confrontational way....

Can we get an accurate address for these folks...

26MHzUS.com

?

I'd REALLY like to see their thoughts..

Clouseau

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

In a non confrontational way....
Can we get an accurate address for these folks...

26MHzUS.com

?
I'd REALLY like to see their thoughts..
Clouseau

Sorry about that little brain cramp, Inspector. I was trying to type the address strictly from memory......which only goes to show that middle age has robbed me of a couple of brain cells here and there... Instead, I should have included a link, so here it is:
http://klixie.textdriven.com/26mhz/

 

[TheRover]

As a side issue for HD AM.... for HD Car Receivers..... Most I have seen offer only 6 AM Presets, which is definitely NOT enough AM Presets ! !

When you consider all of the News/Talk/Sports, and Religious AM stations, that I would want to have preset....--6-- is Not enough.

But.... there are three HD Car Receivers that I know of that have 12 AM Presets (along with the standard 18 FM presets....):


Dual KHD6420 at $129

Dual XHD6425 at $149

Sony CDX-GT720 at $199

 

[trutopia]

In a non confrontational way....

Can we get an accurate address for these folks... 26MHzUS.com ?

I'd REALLY like to see their thoughts..

I'm the admin of www.26mhz.us. I'm happy to answer questions, by E-mail to 26mhz at xemaps dot com.

 

[Channel Surf]

As a side issue for HD AM.... for HD Car Receivers..... Most I have seen offer only 6 AM Presets, which is definitely NOT enough AM Presets ! !

When you consider all of the News/Talk/Sports, and Religious AM stations, that I would want to have preset....--6-- is Not enough.

Exactly why I have essentially given up on AM radio.....

 

[TheRover]

As a side issue for HD AM.... for HD Car Receivers..... Most I have seen offer only 6 AM Presets, which is definitely NOT enough AM Presets ! !

When you consider all of the News/Talk/Sports, and Religious AM stations, that I would want to have preset....--6-- is Not enough.

Exactly why I have essentially given up on AM radio.....

Really.... what direction, may I ask, would you prefer AM radio to go in Channel Surf ? ?

 

[hipporadio]

As a side issue for HD AM.... for HD Car Receivers..... Most I have seen offer only 6 AM Presets, which is definitely NOT enough AM Presets ! !

When you consider all of the News/Talk/Sports, and Religious AM stations, that I would want to have preset....--6-- is Not enough.

Exactly why I have essentially given up on AM radio.....

Well, I haven’t given up on AM yet – I still listen A LOT [fidelity concerns aside]... CONTENT IS KEY, but I’m just a frequently-attacked prerogative in the narrow-interest corporate radio crowd that seems to spend their wakening moments sliding into slumber to forget their recent asset-challenged status - then awakening ONLY to call ME and cogent others here – “pediatric names”! It doesn’t matter that we talk about “prior broadcast experience”... “THEY” will automatically compare resumes [when they HAVE NONE] with those of a differing opinion they know NOTHING about - despite the posts of others who have brought FACTS to bare. They will vilify ESTABLSHED industry notables, such as Jerry DC, who published a formerly-respected radio-industry magazine that CCU paid MILLIONS to commandeer. HE and many-others of their ilk happen to disclose the sad facts regarding the public's LACK of interest in "HD Radio". These HD enthusiasts continue to minimize the professional prowess of the arbiters [when they have NONE]. Most “the SIX” defending HD Radio on this board, are here only to support an “agenda”—for God-Sake, I DON’T know WHAT it could be sanely be! ...Interesting, because most doing-that are here “calling names” 6-12-times per day!

To “The Inspector”: I HAVE NEVER called you “A Stooge” [PLEASE, find specifically that post and highlight it here for all to view IF I have]... My “Stooge” designation has been CLEARLY IDENTIFYED and predicated by root-level pediatric and PERSONAL attacks followed by NO acceptable debate prowess or point. These are simply “individuals lacking in argumentative manners” that have happened to be admitted here!

In another forum, it was suggested by the capable moderator, that “IF you don’t agree with these HD promoters at the 100-percent level – you’ll be a bitter bad guy”... OH HE IS SO TRUE in his benign observation! I have frequently conceeded the “marketplace judgment” on FM HD – it’s due, I AGREE! I have predominantly criticized the “HD” attempt on the AM band – as have the overwhelming percentage of capable and non-muzzled broadcast engineers... INTERESTING. Even MORE interesting, is the total contemporary failure of “HD Radio” in the marketplace – regardless of band! STILL, “the six” led by their “Three Stooges” – reduced recently TO TWO - have continued to divert their so-called “professional careers” to post and have “the last word” characterized by personal attack, resume-comparison, and minimization here daily – sometimes TWELVE TIMES daily!!! I know you “love corporate radio” [and all their penny-stock meanderings] but don’t you have a life?

Curent AM receiver QUALITY is neutered by forces within the consumer electronics biz because of interference on the AM band... How in the he** can you possibly-believe that injected FORMERLY-ILLEGAL interference - self-perpetuated by convoluting and narrow-minded corporate shell-game players – could possibly change or mitigate the rational behind “crappy AM sections” in the common radio? AM IBOC is-what-it-is... A clearly flawed technology that stands ONLY to make a few instantly-gratifying bucks for the now-fledgling "penny stock" masters that narrow-mindedly designed and enforced-it on a totally disinterested public.

 

[LinoNYC]

Once again "Dr Z" enters the closet and soon emerges in a ridiculous hippo costume.

My “Stooge” designation has been CLEARLY IDENTIFYED and predicated by root-level pediatric and PERSONAL attacks followed by NO acceptable debate prowess or point. These are simply “individuals lacking in argumentative manners” that have happened to be admitted here!

Ever give thought as to how much bandwidth you waste with these excretions.

The closest you';ve come to addressing the topic is the threadbare cliche "CONTENT IS KEY".

Do tell, what "content" will win back a future for AM?

Curent AM receiver QUALITY is neutered by forces within the consumer electronics biz because of interference on the AM band... How in the he** can you possibly-believe that injected FORMERLY-ILLEGAL interference - self-perpetuated by convoluting and narrow-minded corporate shell-game players – could possibly change or mitigate the rational behind “crappy AM sections” in the common radio?

Current AM section "quality" is the product of marketplace evaluation: Few people listen to AM thus that section becomes the place to cut corners.

If you AM purists had made a stink 40 years ago when this started happening, we might not be in these desperate straits.

While mandatory receiver standards would have produced better fidelity, true wideband still requires strong, clean local signals. I grew up with excellent AM, I know what is involved.

One after another, AM stations are hallowed out, seeing their only remaing legitimate formats migrate to FM and being left to preachers, hucksters etc.

Even once-dominate signals now cater to bitter reactionaries, a dwindling lot, and increasingly rely on infomercials and paid clearences.

Pound your fist and orate, the real world doesn't care.

If AM iboc fails, it's over.

Lino