More HD Radio reception problems

[jras20]

Well I hate to bring this down, because I would like for it to work out, but I have a place about 30 miles from Austin's Transmitters. I have a dipole antenna hooked up, and in some cases all I was able to get was the call letters of KKMJ's HD Signal, I have a outdoor antenna also, it will pull in Austin HD Great if I have it to Austin, but I have it to San antonio. Kind of bad I can pull in the analog signal to San antonio good with a dipole antenna, I'm about 60 miles from San antonio's transmitters.

 

[Radioman100]

Well I hate to bring this down, because I would like for it to work out, but I have a place about 30 miles from Austin's Transmitters. I have a dipole antenna hooked up, and in some cases all I was able to get was the call letters of KKMJ's HD Signal, I have a outdoor antenna also, it will pull in Austin HD Great if I have it to Austin, but I have it to San antonio. Kind of bad I can pull in the analog signal to San antonio good with a dipole antenna, I'm about 60 miles from San antonio's transmitters.

How hilly is the terrain between your place and the sticks in Austin? I lived in Austin and worked in radio there for a few years. Analog reception is problematic when you go around a big hill even 20 to 30 miles out of town. FM is line of sight transmission. That applies to FM HD as well.

Here's an idea. Why not try HD where the population lives, IN AUSTIN or IN SAN ANTONIO or IN HOUSTON and let us know how it works out for you?

 

[jras20]

I would, but I dont have a HDRadio for my truck, just have 2 home units Accurian HD and the Sangean HD-1 I'm south of Austin, so its not very hilly, pretty flat. Where my place out in southern Lavaca county it is flat all the way to Houston, no hills or very big hills.

 

[wkbam1690]

Here's an idea. Why not try HD where the population lives, IN AUSTIN or IN SAN ANTONIO or IN HOUSTON and let us know how it works out for you?

So, unless you live in a major population center, the new radio model specifies that you cannot listen to radio anymore?

 

[orange434]

So, unless you live in a major population center, the new radio model specifies that you cannot listen to radio anymore?

yep, if you don't live within 20 miles of the transmitter, you don't deserve to listen to the station. a peasant, that's what you are.

 

[BruceS8852]

I had reception problems in NYC today although I live only 8 miles from the transmitter at the Empire State Building. 104.3-HD2, 103.5 HD2, 95.5-HD2 and 95.5 HD3 did not come in at all. Someone else on the New York Radio Message Board had the same problems.

 

[radionekkid]

Line of sight from the transmitter to the radio is very critical at FM (VHF) frequencies. But know that the digital power is less than the analog power, 100/1 infact in current hybrid digital (hd) system. Analog is one thing but digital is another. In crowded spectrum your radio is trying to find a needle in the haystack. From the time the signal leaves the antenna, many different propagation factors constantly work to tear it appart, then it arrives at the radio from several different directions and even closer to the noise floor and other signals . The magic will have to happen in the radio until the cut-over, but there is really no magic, just the laws of physics.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I can now confirm - dipoles are inadequate for suburban HD reception. I will have some careful measurements in the New Year, but I did a band scan of HD stations from my location - about 45 miles from DFW towers. A dipole only netted about 1/3 of them, even properly installed and using a Sangean HDT-1X. A deep fringe yagi - pretty far off axis (aimed at Wichita Falls for a couple of stations up there) nevertheless got every HD signal in the area to lock reliably. What was a real shock - a Godar antenna - pulled in several more HD signals than the dipole. This was completely unexpected!

My next test is to use a more modest yagi - a Radio Shack 6 element - pointed directly at the towers. This will be a good test because it should pull them all in as well, or better, than the bigger yagi off axis.

The bottom line to all this is that HD is all about the antenna - the better antenna - the better HD reception.

Incidentally, my wife who never heard of HD and could care less about it, liked the content on one HD-2 station. I don't think she could care whether it is HD or whether it was some other delivery method.

 

[Chuck]

Incidentally, my wife who never heard of HD and could care less about it, liked the content on one HD-2 station. I don't think she could care whether it is HD or whether it was some other delivery method.

I suspect your wife is very typical. Most people could care less how a signal gets to them. All they really care is if it is something they want to listen to.

There is a lesson to be learned.

 

[Len14043]

I did some testing with my Radiosophy HD-100 with the supplied whip antenna and concluded that signal strenght is the most important factor with multipath having little or no affect on the HD signal. Some of the out-of-market stations are receivable in analog but not digital when the signal is weak. For local stations, multipath didn't seem to affect the digital signal. I futzed with the antenna to cause the signal to be almost inaudible from the multipath, but the digital signal locked. While traveling around town, there are several areas where the multipath is problematic but the HD signal stays locked in.

 

[jras20]

I can now confirm - dipoles are inadequate for suburban HD reception. I will have some careful measurements in the New Year, but I did a band scan of HD stations from my location - about 45 miles from DFW towers. A dipole only netted about 1/3 of them, even properly installed and using a Sangean HDT-1X. A deep fringe yagi - pretty far off axis (aimed at Wichita Falls for a couple of stations up there) nevertheless got every HD signal in the area to lock reliably. What was a real shock - a Godar antenna - pulled in several more HD signals than the dipole. This was completely unexpected!

My next test is to use a more modest yagi - a Radio Shack 6 element - pointed directly at the towers. This will be a good test because it should pull them all in as well, or better, than the bigger yagi off axis.

The bottom line to all this is that HD is all about the antenna - the better antenna - the better HD reception.

Incidentally, my wife who never heard of HD and could care less about it, liked the content on one HD-2 station. I don't think she could care whether it is HD or whether it was some other delivery method.

How well does the Radioshack's 6 element tridrive antenna work? I own 2 of them. One at my place near Austin and one at my place out in southern Lavaca county. I almost think though, if I setup a dipole antenna it picks up almost as good as that one does, only diffrents is a few channels. I have both antennas about 20 feet up. I thought that would be enough for HDRadio but I guess not if your trying to DX them.

 

[Radioman100]

I can now confirm - dipoles are inadequate for suburban HD reception. I will have some careful measurements in the New Year, but I did a band scan of HD stations from my location - about 45 miles from DFW towers. A dipole only netted about 1/3 of them, even properly installed and using a Sangean HDT-1X. A deep fringe yagi - pretty far off axis (aimed at Wichita Falls for a couple of stations up there) nevertheless got every HD signal in the area to lock reliably. What was a real shock - a Godar antenna - pulled in several more HD signals than the dipole. This was completely unexpected!

My next test is to use a more modest yagi - a Radio Shack 6 element - pointed directly at the towers. This will be a good test because it should pull them all in as well, or better, than the bigger yagi off axis.

The bottom line to all this is that HD is all about the antenna - the better antenna - the better HD reception.

Incidentally, my wife who never heard of HD and could care less about it, liked the content on one HD-2 station. I don't think she could care whether it is HD or whether it was some other delivery method.

I'd be really curious as to which ones you received at your location and which ones you didn't. From 45 miles out, you shouldn't have had any trouble with the full Cs but the C1s and C2s were probably a different story.

 

[jras20]

At 30 miles south of Austin,
With a Dipole antenna:

KKMJ - just the call sign
KUT - Ok signal
KHFI - good
KVET - Good
KASE - Good
KPEZ is off, KGSR is good. KBPA is good

I have my analog back on now though I havnt done any more testing. I'm not to impressed with the HD-2 programming Austin or San antonio has, Cox has no HD-2 channels.

 

[Chuck]

How well does the Radioshack's 6 element tridrive antenna work? I own 2 of them. One at my place near Austin and one at my place out in southern Lavaca county. I almost think though, if I setup a dipole antenna it picks up almost as good as that one does, only diffrents is a few channels. I have both antennas about 20 feet up. I thought that would be enough for HDRadio but I guess not if your trying to DX them.

It is a reasonably good general purpose FM antenna that is easy to deal with. Winegard makes a better one, and Antenna Performance in Connecticut makes an even better (but much bigger) FM Yagi. In their never ending brilliance, Radio Shack discontinued selling their 6 element FM antenna just a few months before they put the Accurian HD radio on the market. Go figure.

The good news is the old Radio shack antenna is still available. It was made by Antennacraft who is still around. You can get it from several distributors including this one: http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm You might find a better price by dong a Google search.

Since you seem to be in some kind of FM radio hole, bigger is likely to be better, and using multiple antennas or a rotor is probably going to be what it takes. I purchased a fairly decent Channel Master rotator at Lowe’s for about $60 if I recall correctly.

 

[jras20]

Well I'm doing fine with analog, I dont really plan on spending any more money right now for HDRadio, I want to see where it goes first. I found that DTV is a little easer to DX if you are in the 64db area. I can recieve San antonio DTV with just a pair of Rabbit ears 60 miles away... I dont know what you need if your out of the 64db area. My Whinegard antenna wont bring them in, Its the secound bigest antenna they make for TV I can get san antonio analog good out in Southern Lavaca county, its about 85 miles away from their transmitters.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I'd be really curious as to which ones you received at your location and which ones you didn't. From 45 miles out, you shouldn't have had any trouble with the full Cs but the C1s and C2s were probably a different story.

I'm out of town right now, but I'll be sure and report fully. The Sangean has a signal meter so I can get measurements. Once and for all, I verified that the problem with the people 10 to 12 miles from the Cedar Hill towers is that they are in line with DFW's flight path. I was having good luck a lot further. My biggest problem, though, seems to be the Cedar Hill towers. It is possible that I am so far out I am closer to the rim shots.

 

[jras20]

I wonder how well parts of Houston recieve HD signals, like Northeast sides or East sides of the city since the towers are 15miles sw of Houston I would think some will be having some problems. I dont see HD Making it the way it is now, if I can DX 60 miles on a decent FM stereo sound with a simple dipole antenna, how will HDradio make it when most people wont even have a outdoor antenna. I dont see it working the way it is going now.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I wonder how well parts of Houston recieve HD signals, like Northeast sides or East sides of the city since the towers are 15miles sw of Houston I would think some will be having some problems. I dont see HD Making it the way it is now, if I can DX 60 miles on a decent FM stereo sound with a simple dipole antenna, how will HDradio make it when most people wont even have a outdoor antenna. I dont see it working the way it is going now.

At first I was thinking - like some of the strong advocates do - that what is needed is more sideband power. But the type of dropouts I was experiencing are more like regular stereo dropouts, related to multipath. More power on the sidebands won't do a thing to solve that. Diversity antennas might do the same for HD that they do for regular stereo. Some cars have them standard and those cars might have a shot a good HD coverage. The more things change, it would seem, the more they stay the same.

I've often said I would rather have 10 watts off of a 2000 foot tower than 100,000 off of a hundred foot tower, and I just don't see a problem with the present sideband energy going the whole line of sight. There may be cases where first adjacents are close enough to overpower one or the other sidebands, but as long as the antenna is in the line of sight, there shouldn't be a problem. But multipath definitely dropped out HD when a plane flew over.

 

[Tom Wells]

I wonder how well parts of Houston recieve HD signals, like Northeast sides or East sides of the city since the towers are 15miles sw of Houston I would think some will be having some problems. I dont see HD Making it the way it is now, if I can DX 60 miles on a decent FM stereo sound with a simple dipole antenna, how will HDradio make it when most people wont even have a outdoor antenna. I dont see it working the way it is going now.

At first I was thinking - like some of the strong advocates do - that what is needed is more sideband power. But the type of dropouts I was experiencing are more like regular stereo dropouts, related to multipath. More power on the sidebands won't do a thing to solve that. Diversity antennas might do the same for HD that they do for regular stereo. Some cars have them standard and those cars might have a shot a good HD coverage. The more things change, it would seem, the more they stay the same.

I've often said I would rather have 10 watts off of a 2000 foot tower than 100,000 off of a hundred foot tower, and I just don't see a problem with the present sideband energy going the whole line of sight. There may be cases where first adjacents are close enough to overpower one or the other sidebands, but as long as the antenna is in the line of sight, there shouldn't be a problem. But multipath definitely dropped out HD when a plane flew over.

I live due east of runways 27 left and right for O'Hare. Downward firing radar on cloudy days knocks out my uploading of podcast files.
I am using a cellular-access wireless card on laptop which works otherwise seamlessly here at home, but will not somehow even if it's automatically
relinking, satisfy whatever protocol the upload server needs. Takes 3 - 7 trys on average.
Seldom does a downlink audio pause, even at 128k.
My Sansui tuner is in the basement, the giant old Winegard 1983 super fringe FM-only yagi lives on a rotor in the attic over the second floor, and must be every inch of 10 feet.

I am three miles inland, and almost 10 miles exactly from the airport. The TV antenna in attic does show airplane multipath fluttering,
and sometimes the line-cord tuned radios do on a weak station, but never in-markets.
The Sansui on the yagi? Not once since 1993 when I moved here can I recall ever hearing a flutter on the Sansui.
Even swung east for Michigan, I can't recall multipath flutter.

What are the chances that this newer, downward firing radar is swamping out the receiver?
I've had it turn on laptops in standy 4 different times and places under landing approaches.
Did you have a "control" analog receiver on and hear anything funny going on with the analog signal?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

rbrucecarter5 said:

But multipath definitely dropped out HD when a plane flew over.

So much for HD radio's false claims of multipath immunity.