More Interesting Seattle-area LPFM Stuff...

[Radio-X]

KMIH 88.9/94.5 has received permission to operate a LPFM on 101.1 from their current 94.5 location on Capitol Hill. As it was a "MX'd" application, they will be splitting the frequency with Sand Point arts and Cultural Exchange's station in NE Seattle...KMIH will get it 12a-12p, while Sand Point will program 12p-12a. Sand Point will not be using KMIH's LP facilities to broadcast...instead broadcasting from a much shorter location near Magnuson Park in NE Seattle.

What is most interesting is KMIH's proposal for 101.1...saying they will either sell off the 88.9 frequency or the 94.5 translator in exchange for LP broadcasting on 101.1.

As a LPFM holder usually is usually not allowed to own full-power radio stations, that leaves 88.9/Mercer Island as the only logical station that's getting "dumped".

Million-dollar question will be: what will become of 88.9? KUOW2 (the sequel)? NWPR? God-casters? Another KC Public School taking it over? Going dark? Or donated to that group wanting a LPFM on Mercer Island?

On paper, its signal is pretty poor...but I have no problems picking it up in Shoreline/North Seattle on a sketchy portable. Downtown signal is very poor with the skyscrapers as imagined...of course, that was why they put a signal on 94.5 in the first place!

Radio-X

 

[FMSteve]

Radio-X, from the FCC database, it shows that the LPFM is going to be owned by an entity completely separate from the MI School District, their Alumni Booster Club. So KMIH won't be going away. As for the translator, the database shows that they have the option of either retransmitting the new LPFM or keep rebroadcasting KMIH on 94.5 and divest to another entity other than the Club. In any event, they won't have to do anything until the LPFM becomes operational (to comply with ownership rules), which could be in a year or two.

 

[bobdavcav]

Hmm, that's interesting. It seems to me like if they donated 88.9 to the group that wants the LP on Murcer Island that that would be a win win for both parties. I can't see anyone wanting a class D fm station, so the only other option would be to take the thing dark. What's the difference between a class D and an LP anyway?

 

[fordranger797]

These days its hard to tell what is an LP, what is a pirate, and what is tropo.

 

[crainbebo]

101.1 is a waste of frequency for KMIH. They've already got 94.5 and that's more than enough. This is one of many reasons I don't live in Seattle anymore and don't like that FM dial anymore.

-crainbebo

 

[fordranger797]

I understand the goal of low power radio, but in the end I just think of it as a waste of time (there are exceptions). I don't see any reason why someone would switch from a station that has decent programming to something that may be "out of the norm", but be a poor station in quality and coverage.

 

[Bongwater]

I understand the goal of low power radio, but in the end I just think of it as a waste of time (there are exceptions). I don't see any reason why someone would switch from a station that has decent programming to something that may be "out of the norm", but be a poor station in quality and coverage.

It should make one appreciate the value of a subsidized full power oddball independent public station like KRAB was. It would make far better sense to put all the really niche programming on one big station for a few hours a week than have several tiny niche programming stations congesting the dial 24/7.

If it had to come down to a choice (and "none at all" isn't an answer), what would you rather have? Several low power stations running only one type of niche programming or have it all on one big station?

 

[AQH]

101.1 is a waste of frequency for KMIH. They've already got 94.5 and that's more than enough. This is one of many reasons I don't live in Seattle anymore and don't like that FM dial anymore.

You made a conscious decision to leave Seattle because of a LPFM on Mercer Island? Really?

 

[bobdavcav]

My issue with these low-power stations is that there are still not many radios that can get all these signals. Take the radio in my room down here for example. I'm not sure how it would do in a market like Albuquerque or Atlanta, but here, I have a hard time getting Radio 102.3 and can't get the new 103.7 at all since both of those are sandwiched between fully spaced full-power stations.

 

[fordranger797]

you made a conscious decision to leave seattle because of a lpfm on mercer island? Really?

lol that was actually kind of funny.

 

[crainbebo]

There's many other situations. Not only the crappy, messy FM dial, but due to I-405 traffic, I-5 traffic, I-90 traffic, etc., overcrowding of suburbs, enough rainfall for 5 years in one year, the snow hype, etc. And I LIKE IT here in Yakima!

-crainbebo

 

[ContinuousWave]

Hmm, that's interesting. It seems to me like if they donated 88.9 to the group that wants the LP on Murcer Island that that would be a win win for both parties. I can't see anyone wanting a class D fm station, so the only other option would be to take the thing dark. What's the difference between a class D and an LP anyway?

Class D FM stations (non translators) were 10-100w, though some sources states 250 was allowed in some cases...and iirc were/are still required to follow the full power rules on EBS/EAS. Class Ds were limited to the non-comm band and were only allowed to be licensed to educational institutions (schools, etc) while LPFMs can be anywhere in the full 88-108 range and any non profit can be licensed. Other than that, the remaining Class Ds are similar to a LP-10 or L2. When the FCC stopped issuing new Class Ds in the late 70s, most were 10w or so...the others were required to upgrade to 3KWClass A or turn their license in. Those with 10w TPO, regardless of ERP, were grandfathered (WHPR-FM, a Class D, recently filed for an increase to 44 watts ERP) and about 80 or so still exists though the lists from the FCC database includes CA stations (Canada still licenses Class D equiv stations).
http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/f...&slat2=&NS=N&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&EW=W&size=9

 

[fordranger797]

There's many other situations. Not only the crappy, messy FM dial, but due to I-405 traffic, I-5 traffic, I-90 traffic, etc., overcrowding of suburbs, enough rainfall for 5 years in one year, the snow hype, etc. And I LIKE IT here in Yakima!

-crainbebo

When you're sitting on I-405 for three hours, you might as well crank up some stale classic hits (or even pop-country)! All dignity goes out of the window.

 

[fordranger797]

Class D FM stations (non translators) were 10-100w, though some sources states 250 was allowed in some cases...and iirc were/are still required to follow the full power rules on EBS/EAS. Class Ds were limited to the non-comm band and were only allowed to be licensed to educational institutions (schools, etc) while LPFMs can be anywhere in the full 88-108 range and any non profit can be licensed. Other than that, the remaining Class Ds are similar to a LP-10 or L2. When the FCC stopped issuing new Class Ds in the late 70s, most were 10w or so...the others were required to upgrade to 3KWClass A or turn their license in. Those with 10w TPO, regardless of ERP, were grandfathered (WHPR-FM, a Class D, recently filed for an increase to 44 watts ERP) and about 80 or so still exists though the lists from the FCC database includes CA stations (Canada still licenses Class D equiv stations).
http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/f...&slat2=&NS=N&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&EW=W&size=9

That is just part of the reason why I think that the AM class system makes a lot more sense than FM! Its hard to go wrong when you have a basic concept of AM classes.

 

[ContinuousWave]

The original FM allocations were Class A (at 3KW max), Class B and B1 (only in the NE and north Midwest anad West coast areas) and Class Cs (with unlimited ERP!). NOW you have Class A (up to 6KW), still the B and B1s, and then C3, C2, C1, C0 and C..with a C4 now proposed (which is ridiculous IMHO) Also on FM, originally, Class As were allocated only to certain channels like the AM Class Cs but now Class As can be allocated on any frequency

The legacy AMs were Class I with I-B and I-N (now all A), II (some II-As) and III (both now B), IV (now Class C) and II-D, II-S, III-S (now Class D)..

Seems the two went in opposite directions

The expanded AM band is based on the contour/allocation FM process than the legacy AM method...I wonder when the FCC will start using the Exband more (Personally, I think day power should have been limited to 5KW instead of 10KW)

 

[bobdavcav]

What are they proposing for C4? If I were in charge of the class system, it would be A, B1, B, C1, and C. All stations whether or not they were in B states or not would be listed as class B if they were at that power level. Three examples of C2s I can think of right now would be KFIS, KMCQ and KJET. These would all be B stations. Also, if a station is say 51 kw at 153 meters, it would be protected only to that contour, not to 100 kw at 299 meters.

 

[Kelly A]

What are they proposing for C4?

Class A stations in the PNW wouldn't be eligible for C4 Class, because of US-Canadian treaties. Same with stations close to Mexico..

This explanation from the BDR:

Matt Wesolowski operates a small station, WYAB in Flora, Mississippi, just up the road from Jackson, MS, the State Capitol. As many small town operators, he tries to focus on his community, yet not only competes with signals from other markets like Jackson, but has to contend with the larger buildings that sprout up over time, buildings that require more signal for penetration. There is another problem that plagues many Class A stations: HD neighbors (especially those grandfathered stations that operate HD) which put out what could politely be called "interference" on their neighbor's channel.
Especially in the Mid-West and West, where towns tend to be further apart and rural population thin, the ability to reach out past the traditional 12-15 kilometer (8-9 mile) contour would be of great help to bring more folks into coverage.
So, Wesolowski came up with the idea to double the existing 6 kW power level to 12 kW ERP. He positioned it as a bridge to Class C stations with the designation of "C4." So far, his on-line petition has garnered over 115 signatures from existing Class A operators, a clear indication of interest.

An increase of 3 dB is not as great as "doubling the power" might seem at first glance. Even ten times the power does not increase the coverage contours as much as some might think.

Going from 5 kW to 50 kW at 100 feet, for example, only increases the 60 dBu radius from about 9.4 to 16.4 miles, the 70 dBu from 5.3 to 9.4 miles, more or less. A full 100 kW at 100 feet would only push the contour 2.5 miles further - and deliver a huge power bill - not of much use, unless the goal is to change the station to serving an adjacent, larger city. Yes, height is more important than power, but if we are talking Class A, HAAT over 100 m (328 feet) causes a reduction of power. But some additional power definitely is better than none.

On the other hand, the last 15 years have seen a race to move stations closer and closer to larger markets and operate as "rimshots." Indeed the City of License has become an almost useless term for many stations where they do not have a transmitter, studio, on-air content, or, in fact, any real presence in the City of License. Aside from the hourly ID, listeners would never know - or care.

Worse, during emergencies, such as major fires, some of these stations merely continue to "play the hits" in the larger market than show any concern for their City of License.After all, you cannot lose any of the commercials.

 

[semoochie]

Class D FM stations (non translators) were 10-100w, though some sources states 250 was allowed in some cases...and iirc were/are still required to follow the full power rules on EBS/EAS. Class Ds were limited to the non-comm band and were only allowed to be licensed to educational institutions (schools, etc) while LPFMs can be anywhere in the full 88-108 range and any non profit can be licensed. Other than that, the remaining Class Ds are similar to a LP-10 or L2. When the FCC stopped issuing new Class Ds in the late 70s, most were 10w or so...the others were required to upgrade to 3KWClass A or turn their license in. Those with 10w TPO, regardless of ERP, were grandfathered (WHPR-FM, a Class D, recently filed for an increase to 44 watts ERP) and about 80 or so still exists though the lists from the FCC database includes CA stations (Canada still licenses Class D equiv stations).
http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/f...&slat2=&NS=N&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&EW=W&size=9

Class D stations were given a choice of increasing power to at least 100 watts or being subject to the whims of full power broadcasters. The 100 watt level was to bring them up to minimum Class A status.

 

[semoochie]

The original FM allocations were Class A (at 3KW max), Class B and B1 (only in the NE and north Midwest anad West coast areas) and Class Cs (with unlimited ERP!). NOW you have Class A (up to 6KW), still the B and B1s, and then C3, C2, C1, C0 and C..with a C4 now proposed (which is ridiculous IMHO) Also on FM, originally, Class As were allocated only to certain channels like the AM Class Cs but now Class As can be allocated on any frequency

The legacy AMs were Class I with I-B and I-N (now all A), II (some II-As) and III (both now B), IV (now Class C) and II-D, II-S, III-S (now Class D)..

Seems the two went in opposite directions

The expanded AM band is based on the contour/allocation FM process than the legacy AM method...I wonder when the FCC will start using the Exband more (Personally, I think day power should have been limited to 5KW instead of 10KW)

Class B1 came in with Classes C1, C2 and C3. Before that, there were only A, B, C and D.