More Talk Stations, Fewer Music Stations??

[Joseph_Gallant]

With commercial FM stations in Minneapolis/St. Paul and Salt Lake City about to or having recently dropped music formats for talk, I'd like to toss out this thought:

Is the I-Pod (among other things) convincing the industry to move away from music programming and launching more all-talk stations??

Think about it. It's now very easy to obtain and download music onto an I-Pod or similar device. There's a wide range of music out there. Many listeners can load up their I-Pod with lots of their favorite music. They do not have to listen to radio where they might not hear much of their favorite music.

Some broadcasters may believe that they can't compete against I-Pods and are moving some of their FM stations to all-talk formats.

Talk radio is usually live (although "live" in this case means the standard seven-second delay). And unless you have a combination I-Pod/radio receiver unit (I don't know if such a device exists; I haven't seen one), the only way to hear talk radio live is to do so by radio (or on your computer via an Internet stream in some cases). For some broadcasters, switching from music to talk may be the only way to effectively compete against I-Pods.

Might the industry be pretty much about to surrender to I-Pods and make a wholesale change of many FM music stations to talk formats in the belief that doing so will be the only way for their stations to continue to be successful??

 

[Musicradio]

I hope not. Talk radio sucks.

 

[davideduardo]

> With commercial FM stations in Minneapolis/St. Paul and Salt
> Lake City about to or having recently dropped music formats
> for talk, I'd like to toss out this thought:
>
> Is the I-Pod (among other things) convincing the industry to
> move away from music programming and launching more all-talk
> stations??

Nope, in my opinion. Talk is a growing format, with many more options developing. Since AM does not do well with younger demos, there is a real opportunity with FM for 25+ listeners. Additionlly, in some markets there are just a couple, if any, AMs that cover the entire market well... so FMs are a real opportunity based on better coverage in some instances.

 

[KMRichards]

> Might the industry be pretty much about to surrender to
> I-Pods and make a wholesale change of many FM music stations
> to talk formats in the belief that doing so will be the only
> way for their stations to continue to be successful??

Okay, Joseph, you've gone off into the deep end this time.

The iPod is not having that colossal an impact. What it has done is supplanted the portable CD player, which previously replaced the portable cassette player.

I believe, though, that the iPod has gained much wider acceptance than its predecessors, and that cookie-cutter, liner-oriented radio formats have little to offer in comparison. So I think the industry will swing back toward personality-oriented radio as a competitive measure. As a result, the Jack format (and clones) are likely to be a short-lived fad.<P ID="signature">______________


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[KMRichards]

> Talk radio sucks.

Well, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, the ratings for a damned lot of Talk stations don't suck, and I suspect the listeners to those stations would vehemently disagree with you.
<P ID="signature">______________


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[SaltyDog]

I have offered the same opinion several times over the last six months.

It makes perfect sense. I don't believe the iPod is just another iteration of recorded music players. The size of the music library makes comparisons to CDs meaningless. Think about it. What are most music radio stations (including satellite) but big iPod-like hard drives that feed into a transmitter? iPods are essentially a mini-radio station we carry around. No air personalities (but that is also true of a lot of radio stations) but also, NO commercials!

I am appalled at the misconceptions many radio pros have about iPods. I've been told that adults "don't have time to program them". They don't seem to realize you can rip a ton of cd's in a VERY short period of time and they require no day-to-day programming. A lot of people think that only teenagers use them. Even if that were true, and it's not, todays 17 year old is 2012's 27 year old. You think they're gonna change their music listening habits after college. Did you?

What needs to change is that radio needs to develop more talk formats. The success of Rush Limbaugh etc has blinded us to the potential of non-political talk. Liberal talk is a variation but its still political.

Talk is more resilient against iPods and commercial-free satellite stations.
The stations can own content and not just the distribution channel (the license). Once an audience is built, the barriers to entry are much higher than is the case with a successful music station.

iPods may not seem like a big deal now, but I am what marketers call an early adopter. I get new electronic toys as soon as they come out. I'm way past just listening when I run in the morning. I've got docking stations around the house, the office and in my car.

But.... for news, talk, sports... my radio still gets a workout too.<P ID="signature">______________
<a href="http://saltydog.5gigs.com/cindyspeaks.html">
The Salty Dog</a>
</P>

 

[clichemoth]

> What needs to change is that radio needs to develop more
> talk formats. The success of Rush Limbaugh etc has blinded
> us to the potential of non-political talk. Liberal talk is a
> variation but its still political.

Where are these other formats?

More markets could use a station that focuses specifically on local issues, but that would still be a flavor of political talk, only on a smaller scale.

All-news has never worked outside really large markets.

Sports is just cheap filler in markets without multiple major teams to talk about.

Business talk probably bills quite well, but I doubt it rates well at any time other than AM drive.

Female-leaning advice/conversation talk has been a non-starter anywhere it's been tried, most likely because the audience relies on TV for that content (even if they're taping/TiVoing it in the day to watch after they get home from work).

High-toned cultural talk? We have that already, it's called public radio. I doubt a commercial entity would be able to put together a package compelling enough to get listeners to switch to a station with ads.

Hot talk works, but it takes a lot of quality shows to make a station work. Given the fact that people whine and complain about anything even remotely risque and it ends up costing stations money and talent jobs when they do, it's a much better fit for satellite.

There aren't many talk stations specifically geared toward the African-American community and I could see that being an area for growth, but certainly not in every market.

Sleaze talk? As conversation talk is to Oprah, Montel, etc. and hot talk is to the Man Show, Conan, Ferguson, etc., it'd be the equivalent of Maury Povich or Ricki Lake. I'm surprised this doesn't exist in some form yet. Whether it would do well is a completely different matter, though.

All-weather? High cume, extremely low TSL, no ad revenue.

All-comedy? Already exists and doesn't seem to be very successful at all, although I like what I've heard of that network.

A return to the good old days of radio drama? Actually, if someone threw some muscle and money behind that and had well-known writers/actors developing programs, that could carve out a tiny but loyal niche. It only works as good as the programming, though, and it'd have to be top-notch must-listen stuff.

DIY radio? Yeah, the same bland glorified infomercials political talkers cram into neglected weekend slots, that'll work well in prime drivetime. **rolls eyes**

There's not enough of the talk radio pie to go around already. Music won't die on radio because if it did, the big groups would have all these signals and precisely bupkis to put on them. Certain formats (Alternative, Rock, CHR, and AAA would definitely be among these) will see more of a decrease in audience because it's their listeners that are buying iPods and satellite systems. I don't see mainstream AC, country, urban, or the various Spanish formats getting squeezed out by alternative technology anytime soon




>
> Talk is more resilient against iPods and commercial-free
> satellite stations.
> The stations can own content and not just the distribution
> channel (the license). Once an audience is built, the
> barriers to entry are much higher than is the case with a
> successful music station.
>
> iPods may not seem like a big deal now, but I am what
> marketers call an early adopter. I get new electronic toys
> as soon as they come out. I'm way past just listening when I
> run in the morning. I've got docking stations around the
> house, the office and in my car.
>
> But.... for news, talk, sports... my radio still gets a
> workout too.
>

 

[Musicradio]

> > Talk radio sucks.
>
> Well, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, the
> ratings for a damned lot of Talk stations don't suck, and I
> suspect the listeners to those stations would vehemently
> disagree with you.
>

Sorry -- I grew up with music on the radio.
I don't enjoy listening to it.

 

[Phillyradiogeek]

> What needs to change is that radio needs to develop more
> talk formats. The success of Rush Limbaugh etc has blinded
> us to the potential of non-political talk. Liberal talk is a
> variation but its still political.
>
> Talk is more resilient against iPods and commercial-free
> satellite stations.
> The stations can own content and not just the distribution
> channel (the license). Once an audience is built, the
> barriers to entry are much higher than is the case with a
> successful music station.

With not just the iPod but new media in general emerging (Internet, satellite radio), the time is right to start creating some more interesting formats to keep terrestrial radio fresh and relevant. Talk can be very hit or miss depending on the market and how the station is programmed, but it does keep people away from the new media to a point. I'd like to see a general talk station that leaves the harder stuff to the existing political talkers, but not fluffy stuff like on The View or Entertainment Tonight either. How about talk about relationships, the workplace, and daily living in general, done intelligently? I don't believe this is being done as a 24/7 format anywhere.

Spanish formats are becoming a great option for some regional areas, but they're not a viable option everywhere--yet. Sports has its limitations, but it does generate revenue. Hot talk as an all-day format has been a flop, and with satellite today, it doesn't make sense to put this on broadcast radio.

Also keep in mind that, right now, only some music formats are having trouble. Rock is rather shaky right now, 60s and 70s oldies are having varying degrees of success and failure in different markets, adult standards and "real oldies" are dead to radio. But, as another poster in this thread has stated, country and urban are still doing quite well.

With all that said, can anyone create some new formats alltogether?

 

[John_U]

Shut down AM?

> Since AM does not do well with
> younger demos, there is a real opportunity with FM for 25+
> listeners. Additionlly, in some markets there are just a
> couple, if any, AMs that cover the entire market well... so
> FMs are a real opportunity based on better coverage in some
> instances.
>
Hi,

I have read elsewhere that maybe it is time to start winnowing the AM band by eliminating a lot of the 'graveyards'. IBOC will add to the winnowing leaving maybe a few high power AMs on. Maybe it is time to consider shutting AM down completely, which is what loooks to be happennig in Canada.

John

 

[RockManAC]

> Spanish formats are becoming a great option for some
> regional areas, but they're not a viable option
> everywhere--yet.

And this is kind of the reason I'm moving away from radio... Every time a station goes Spanish language, it's another station I can't listen to.. I don't speak Spanish. We had this happen several times in Chicago (though 560, 92.5/7, 99.9, & 103.9 have all come back to English language formats)

> Rock is rather shaky right now

The other turn off to radio right now... Btw.. Do you know the reason rock is "failing"? It has nothing to do with radio... It's because the record labels want the quick buck they can make with the pop & hip-hop/rap acts. Rock takes time to develop a band/product and well they don't want to spend the money on that. Rock, in general, is IMO moving to a more localized level. Sure it might disappear from the radio, but it will never go away, it's just gone local. Plently of rock bands are out there, you just have to go find them! Also, rock radio would be wise to do the same, start adding some of the bigger regional / local bands into your rotation (IOW don't limit them to your "Local" show)

> With all that said, can anyone create some new formats
> alltogether?

No. No one in radio (or movies, or TV) can have an original though since it 1. costs money and 2. might fail and therefore not generate money

-A<P ID="signature">______________

</P>

 

[clichemoth]

> > Spanish formats are becoming a great option for some
> > regional areas, but they're not a viable option
> > everywhere--yet.
>
> And this is kind of the reason I'm moving away from radio...
> Every time a station goes Spanish language, it's another
> station I can't listen to.. I don't speak Spanish. We had
> this happen several times in Chicago (though 560, 92.5/7,
> 99.9, & 103.9 have all come back to English language
> formats)
>
> > Rock is rather shaky right now
>
> The other turn off to radio right now... Btw.. Do you know
> the reason rock is "failing"? It has nothing to do with
> radio... It's because the record labels want the quick buck
> they can make with the pop & hip-hop/rap acts. Rock takes
> time to develop a band/product and well they don't want to
> spend the money on that. Rock, in general, is IMO moving to
> a more localized level. Sure it might disappear from the
> radio, but it will never go away, it's just gone local.
> Plently of rock bands are out there, you just have to go
> find them! Also, rock radio would be wise to do the same,
> start adding some of the bigger regional / local bands into
> your rotation (IOW don't limit them to your "Local" show)

Some stations already do this. . . Birmingham's alternative station WRAX used to before they flipped frequencies, blew up the majority of the staff, and generally started to suck. Needless to say, it was much better when they were playing all the regional bands that were actually doing gigs in the area rather than the same dozen or so big national acts ad nauseam. . .

For rock/alternative radio to maintain any relevance, stations will need to sound like WRAX used to and put their focus on artists the listeners are buying tickets and paying cover charges to hear live. That localism is impossible with satellite.

 

[KMRichards]

> > > Talk radio sucks.
> >
> > Well, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion,
> the
> > ratings for a damned lot of Talk stations don't suck, and
> I
> > suspect the listeners to those stations would vehemently
> > disagree with you.
> >
>
> Sorry -- I grew up with music on the radio.
> I don't enjoy listening to it.

That doesn't automatically make you right.<P ID="signature">______________


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[iowegian2]

> > > > Talk radio sucks.
> > >
> > > Well, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion,
> > the
> > > ratings for a damned lot of Talk stations don't suck,
> and
> > I
> > > suspect the listeners to those stations would vehemently
>
> > > disagree with you.
> > >
> >
> > Sorry -- I grew up with music on the radio.
> > I don't enjoy listening to it.
>
> That doesn't automatically make you right.
>

Sir, I think he was rephrasing an opinion, which doesn't have to be
substantiated by fact*. So, he doesn't have to be right or wrong.


*If it did, much of talk radio would be DOA, in my *opinion!*

 

[KMRichards]

> Sir, I think he was rephrasing an opinion, which doesn't
> have to be
> substantiated by fact*. So, he doesn't have to be right or
> wrong.
>
>
> *If it did, much of talk radio would be DOA, in my
> *opinion!*

I wish he had said what you said. What he actually said was:

I hope not. Talk radio sucks.

Not exactly scintillating. But my original response did deal with that statement as an opinion. In fact, my first words were "you are entitled to your opinion" but that many -- especially talk radio listeners -- would disgree with him.

His reply was argumentative without moving the discussion forward, which would indicate a mindset of "this is not just my opinion, it is the absolute truth".<P ID="signature">______________


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[gr8oldies]

Re: Shut down AM?

The only thin keeping many AMs on the air is consolodation. I wouldn't doubt that if that never happened, at least half of the AMs now operating would be silent.<P ID="signature">______________
Greetings from Ohio-where the governor wants everyone to know he's sorry.</P>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Shut down AM?

> > Since AM does not do well with
> > younger demos, there is a real opportunity with FM for 25+
>
> > listeners. Additionlly, in some markets there are just a
> > couple, if any, AMs that cover the entire market well...
> so
> > FMs are a real opportunity based on better coverage in
> some
> > instances.
> >
> Hi,
>
> I have read elsewhere that maybe it is time to start
> winnowing the AM band by eliminating a lot of the
> 'graveyards'. IBOC will add to the winnowing leaving maybe a
> few high power AMs on. Maybe it is time to consider shutting
> AM down completely, which is what loooks to be happennig in
> Canada.

Canada is a different situation, as the licencing of stations has always been more conservative and less 'if it fits, licence it." The move to FM by many stations has generally meant the replacement of an AM with an FM on a newly allocated channel, and no net increase in stations. Even then, in larger cities the canadian authorities have licenced dark AMs that moved to FM to permit specialized programming, like the new 50 kw station in vancouver that will serve ethnic minorities other than Chinese.

In the US, there always seem to be people who think they have a concept that will woek, even on inferior facilities. Somethimes they are right, too. I do not see many AMs disappearing, except cases where the transmitter site is lost and there is no economicly viable new site.

 

[Jay_F]

> > What needs to change is that radio needs to develop more
> > talk formats. The success of Rush Limbaugh etc has blinded
>
> > us to the potential of non-political talk. Liberal talk is
> a
> > variation but its still political.
> >
> > Talk is more resilient against iPods and commercial-free
> > satellite stations.
> > The stations can own content and not just the distribution
>
> > channel (the license). Once an audience is built, the
> > barriers to entry are much higher than is the case with a
> > successful music station.
>
> With not just the iPod but new media in general emerging
> (Internet, satellite radio), the time is right to start
> creating some more interesting formats to keep terrestrial
> radio fresh and relevant. Talk can be very hit or miss
> depending on the market and how the station is programmed,
> but it does keep people away from the new media to a point.
> I'd like to see a general talk station that leaves the
> harder stuff to the existing political talkers, but not
> fluffy stuff like on The View or Entertainment Tonight
> either. How about talk about relationships, the workplace,
> and daily living in general, done intelligently? I don't
> believe this is being done as a 24/7 format anywhere.
>

My prediction is the opposite of what you suggest for FM talk will occur. The new talk station in Minneapolis is being modled on the success of WPGB/Pittsburgh. WPGB went against the grain of most FM talk stations, instead of being lifestyle or "Hot Talk" the station is political and talks about the hard issues. It's like an AM talker that just happens to be on FM and it's doing better than 99% of FM "Hot Talk" stations.

My guess is that CC will look at other markets where they don't own the big AM talker, switch a low rated FM to news/talk, and steal any Premiere syndicated shows of their choice from the high rated AM talker.

As for radio competing against I-Pods and other new technology. I think music formats will survive on FM. But for radio to stay viable it will have to offer things you can't get on an I-Pod..More services, a little more talk/personality, more listener interaction, more local contests, more live and local. Yes this will mean reversing some of the trends over the past decade, but it will keep radio a unique form of entertainment and information, it will keep radio a companion. Radio needs some "soul". If it just becomes a music source that plays commercials it will slowly but surely decline.

 

[Musicradio]

>
> That doesn't automatically make you right.
>


I'm not arguing with you. If you like it - fine.
I don't.

That's all.

 

[Musicradio]

>>
> Not exactly scintillating. But my original response did
> deal with that statement as an opinion. In fact, my first
> words were "you are entitled to your opinion" but that many
> -- especially talk radio listeners -- would disgree with
> him.
>
> His reply was argumentative without moving the discussion
> forward, which would indicate a mindset of "this is not just
> my opinion, it is the absolute truth".
>

I didn't stop by here to "move the discussion forward". I gave
my opinion on it. If it doesn't match yours -- too bad. Again,
my opinion -- A radio station is wasting precious time with
a talk format. I don't care to listen to a person making noise
so that other people can call in and make more noise.

But hey -- that's my two cents on it.