I know most of the FM stations in the San Diego area are located at Mt. Soledad. I know these stations aren't on Mt. Soledad. KSDS 88.3 (Can't move due to XETV CH. 6). KPBS 89.5 has an application moving to Mt. Soledad. I'm trying to figure out why can't these radio stations move to Mt. Soledad. KHTS 93.3, KSON 97.3, KGB 101.5, and KLNV 106.5.
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Mt. Soledad
- Thread starter e-dawg
- Start date
It's all about allocations...
KHTS has first adjacent KCBS-FM in LA
KSON has KLSX, LA, first adjacent.
KGB has KRTH in LA and KSCA, Glendale, both second adjacents. (Side note: this lack of first adjacent stations is why KGB had such tremendous covereage in the LA area and up the coast before LPFM's started being dropped in...)
KLNV has KALI, santa Ana and KROQ, Pasadina, both first adjacents.
Stations are packed so tightly in Southern California that it's almost impossible to move anything in San Diego towards LA. (Which is what you'd be doing with all these stations...)
KHTS has first adjacent KCBS-FM in LA
KSON has KLSX, LA, first adjacent.
KGB has KRTH in LA and KSCA, Glendale, both second adjacents. (Side note: this lack of first adjacent stations is why KGB had such tremendous covereage in the LA area and up the coast before LPFM's started being dropped in...)
KLNV has KALI, santa Ana and KROQ, Pasadina, both first adjacents.
Stations are packed so tightly in Southern California that it's almost impossible to move anything in San Diego towards LA. (Which is what you'd be doing with all these stations...)
Whether or not the LA statons are Grandfathered is irrelevant: they aren't moving. The only one of the SD stations Grandfathered is KGB, and then only 2 meters HAAT. Any station moving towards the LA stations is going to have to protect their contours. Assume for the sake of argument that Mt. Soledad was fully-spaced to Mt. Wilson, Flint Peak or wherever: Any station moving to Mt. Soledad is immediately going to loose about half their ERP due to increasing their HAAT. Add in the necessary power reduction to avoid overlapping the contours, (which, I suppose, one could do with a DA, if one could find the tower space to hang one), and the station winds up in a worse position signal strength-wise after spending a boat load of money on the move. (Not to mention the hefty monthly rent that a couple of them aren't paying now...)
Remember that Jacor moved KHTS from Mt. Soledad to the KGB site. If we had been able to go the additional 12.25 miles to Mt. Soledad, I can assure you that we would have... :>)
If the object of this exercise is to improve ratings, then I submit that it's mis-placed. All of these stations have historically been in the top 5, many at #1, (both 12+ and in their target demos), for the last 20 years or so. Any ratings difficulties they are suffering with the advent of PPM are, in my opinion, not signal related. In many cases, I'd say they were self inflicted... :>)
Remember that Jacor moved KHTS from Mt. Soledad to the KGB site. If we had been able to go the additional 12.25 miles to Mt. Soledad, I can assure you that we would have... :>)
If the object of this exercise is to improve ratings, then I submit that it's mis-placed. All of these stations have historically been in the top 5, many at #1, (both 12+ and in their target demos), for the last 20 years or so. Any ratings difficulties they are suffering with the advent of PPM are, in my opinion, not signal related. In many cases, I'd say they were self inflicted... :>)
Uhh... you mean KHTS was moved from San Miguel, right? So that's why it's no longer a blowtorch where I live. (I can see San Miguel out our kitchen window.)
What I'd like to know is... WHY did they move it? Doesn't 2.9kW or whatever they had atop a higher elevation like Miguel have the same coverage radius as 50kW down in/near a valley (by comparison)? Or does the 50kW's signal actually go farther, even though it's at a lower elevation and the line-of-sight horizon is closer?
What I'd like to know is... WHY did they move it? Doesn't 2.9kW or whatever they had atop a higher elevation like Miguel have the same coverage radius as 50kW down in/near a valley (by comparison)? Or does the 50kW's signal actually go farther, even though it's at a lower elevation and the line-of-sight horizon is closer?
e-dawg said:But these stations are grandfather. Look at KXOS 93.9 and KMYI 94.1. KOST 103.5 and KCSF 103.7. KKGO 105.1 and KIOZ 105.3. Why can't 93.3, 97.3, 101.5, and 106.5 move to Mt. Soledad?
radiode: I don't have time to doublecheck right now but I'm pretty sure the SD stations are NOT required to protect LA's contours, only the contours the LA stations would have if they were NOT grandfathered.
But it doesn't matter; working strictly with the non-grandfathered distance separations in 73.207, one can find stations that would preclude all four stations e-dawg mentioned from moving to Soledad.
Specifically:
93.3: Too close to KBHR 93.3 Big Bear Lake. Must be at least 178km away -- Mt. Soledad is only 165km away.
97.3: Too close to KLYY 97.5 San Bernardino. Must be at least 169km away -- Mt. Soledad is only 155km away.
101.5: Too close to KATY-FM 101.3 Idlewyld (sp?). Must be at least 113km away -- Mt. Soledad is only 109km away.
106.5: Too close to KIXA 106.5 Lucerne Valley. Must be at least 178km away -- Mt. Soledad is only 172km away.
Also, too close to KSSD 107.1 Fallbrook. Must be at least 69km away -- Mt. Soledad is only 61km away.
I did not check every possible limit. IF interference might limit the ability of KHTS to move north (if there's a 103.9 or 104.1 too close) and I STRONGLY suspect 107.9 would preclude KSON from moving any further north.
Useful links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Soledad (shows the geographic coordinates of Mt. Soledad)
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2009/octqtr/47cfr73.207.htm (FCC regulation 73.207, which sets the minimum distances between FM stations on the same and adjacent frequencies)
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/fmq.html (FCC FM Query, which lets you pull up a list of FM stations within a given distance of a given set of coordinates -- such as those of Mt. Soledad)
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2009/octqtr/47cfr73.215.htm (FCC regulation 73.215, which has another distance table applicable to the use of directional antennas or reduced power to allow stations to be located closer together than 73.207 allows)
I worked on various scenarios for moving KSON-FM and there just wasn't anywhere to put it that was going to be an improvement. Our concern was north county coverage, so we first tried an on frequency booster which was a total disaster, and then the perfect solution came along with turning KSOQ into an essentially high power translater.
tfcwings: Right. Mt. Miguel. It was late...:>)
KHTS was moved about 9 miles to the northwest. Doing so put certain locations in shadow that were line of sight from Mt. Miguel. That may be why your receiption isn't as good as it was. On the other hand, a lot of areas got much higher signal strength than they got before. Overall it was a big plus...
While on paper a high HAAT/low power tx site and a low HAAT/high power tx site may have equivalent PREDICTED coverage according to the FCC's methodology, it doesn't necessarily work out that way in the real world. TIREM, LONGLY-RICE, and other software programs give a very accurate picture of real world coverage and are used in place of the FCC's curves when researching potential moves. Once it comes time to file, of course, the FCC's system controls...
KHTS was moved about 9 miles to the northwest. Doing so put certain locations in shadow that were line of sight from Mt. Miguel. That may be why your receiption isn't as good as it was. On the other hand, a lot of areas got much higher signal strength than they got before. Overall it was a big plus...
While on paper a high HAAT/low power tx site and a low HAAT/high power tx site may have equivalent PREDICTED coverage according to the FCC's methodology, it doesn't necessarily work out that way in the real world. TIREM, LONGLY-RICE, and other software programs give a very accurate picture of real world coverage and are used in place of the FCC's curves when researching potential moves. Once it comes time to file, of course, the FCC's system controls...
radiode said:RadioEngineer: Wasn't Black Mountain of interest at one point to improve North County coverage?
Black Mountain was of interest for KiFM. It wouldn't have worked for KSON-FM. There is also a peak (the name escapes me in my advancing years) just on the south side of 52 as it drops down into Santee that held many good possibilities. Of course having it in the approach path to Miramar and MYF was a bit of an issue. I looked at every possibility during my years there for KSON-FM, KiFM and KBZT and we finally concluded that the KFMB Soledad site was as good as it was going to get for KiFM and KBZT, and the KSIQ translator solution for KSON-FM north county coverage was the best solution to that problem. The KSON-FM/KSOQ coverage is the best there is in the San Diego metro area IMveryHO.
That would be Cowles Mt.
As I recall, Mr. Gonsett and you did mucho work to make that site a reality, only to be blocked by the politicos in SD at the time (not that anything has changed in years in that regard). The site had it all-underground xmtr building and a short stick to keep the Top Guns at Miramar happy. Thanks for keeping such great records. It made for fascinating reading!
As I recall, Mr. Gonsett and you did mucho work to make that site a reality, only to be blocked by the politicos in SD at the time (not that anything has changed in years in that regard). The site had it all-underground xmtr building and a short stick to keep the Top Guns at Miramar happy. Thanks for keeping such great records. It made for fascinating reading!
wattsup said:That would be Cowles Mt.
As I recall, Mr. Gonsett and you did mucho work to make that site a reality, only to be blocked by the politicos in SD at the time (not that anything has changed in years in that regard). The site had it all-underground xmtr building and a short stick to keep the Top Guns at Miramar happy. Thanks for keeping such great records. It made for fascinating reading!
Nope. Not Cowles. I'm talking about where 52 crests before starting down to the valley. You're going to make me have to do a bunch of searching.
Fortuna. There might have been a way to do something there. I would have loved to see a Mt. Sutro type project but there were some serious concerns regarding air traffic to Miramar and MYF. There never was enough interest to get anything started and it would have been mucho expensive as there are no roads or utilities.
I believe that John is referring to Fortuna Mountain, not Cowles. (Further south on the other side of Mission Gorge Rd.)
We also looked at Fortuna. Since it's Mission Trails Regional Park land, any proposed development there looks to be pretty much impossible from both a legal and political standpoint. You'd be tied up in environmental impact studies and lawsuits until the end of time...
We also looked at Fortuna. Since it's Mission Trails Regional Park land, any proposed development there looks to be pretty much impossible from both a legal and political standpoint. You'd be tied up in environmental impact studies and lawsuits until the end of time...
radiode said:I believe that John is referring to Fortuna Mountain, not Cowles. (Further south on the other side of Mission Gorge Rd.)
We also looked at Fortuna. Since it's Mission Trails Regional Park land, any proposed development there looks to be pretty much impossible from both a legal and political standpoint. You'd be tied up in environmental impact studies and lawsuits until the end of time...
Here's what one of the encouraging factors was about Fortuna (remember badly fading memory). Not only is the peak on the very edge of the park, a certain portion of the peak is owned by an entity other than the park (or was at the time). So in other words, with the proper coordination of the land (roads, power), finding a way to minimally encroach on airspace, the possibility of cleaning up some of Soledad through migration, and the potential for a central multi user facility there, it might have been an opportunity at one time. I think that day is long gone if it even ever existed. Fortuna would probably provide the best compromise for coverage in the San Diego metro and I recall early studies indicating the potential for several broadcasters being able to relocate there. I don't recall all of the details, but there was insufficient interest to go forward back in the late 80's/early 90's when I was looking at it.
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