multiple co-channel 50kW+ received at night?

[pianoplayer88key]

(I posted this to the IRCA list, so I hope it's OK to also post here for those that aren't on the IRCA list.)

Are there places, besides where I am, where you can nightly receive 2 or more co-channel stations running at least 50kW (or more, as may be the case for a few Mexican stations)?  Here just south of El Cajon, CA, on 1580 I receive a fairly strong signal from KMIK Tempe, AZ (which is often as strong as some of my locals), as well as a sometimes too-easily-readable signal from KBLA Santa Monica, CA (whose 10 (?) Hz heterodyne makes KMIK less pleasant to listen to at night).  Also, often I hear XEDM Hermosillo, SO, as well, but that's a tougher catch with the two other signals in the way.  That makes THREE co-channel 50kW stations that are regularly heard here at night.

Also what are some situations where there are multiple stations licensed for at least 50kW at night in a relatively small area?  I can think of 2 right off the bat...  One is the aforementioned 1580s - KMIK, KBLA (371 miles west) and XEDM (302 miles south).  (One thing I think is notable is XEDM is non-directional full time and KMIK is non-directional daytime, and both stations are only 302 miles apart.) The other is 1010 WINS New York, NY and CFRB Toronto, ON 339 miles northwest.

Anyone know of other situations like those?  Any places where there are FOUR 50kW stations receivable on the same channel at night, or where there are at least two co-channel stations less than 300 miles away authorized for 50kW at night?  (Extra listings in the FCC database (or whatever source you use) in the case of some Mexican (or other) stations don't count - ones where the transmitter sites may be some distance apart but use the same callsign,  ones where they're co-located with different callsigns, and ones where there's 2 listings, one with the callsign and one with a 1 appended on the end of it.)

 

[jd]

Looks like your situation may be unique (hearing three stations on the same frequency), and with the qualifications you presented there are few others that would even come close. For example, the northern trio of high-powered stations on 1130, KFAN Minneapolis, WISN Milwaukee and WDFN Detroit is disqualified because none of them run 50kW at night.

Between US and Canadian stations there can be considerable overlap between signals; note that the distance between co-channels CHUM Toronto and New York's WEPN is 342 miles, similar to the CFRB and WINS example you cited. Even closer is CHIN Toronto and WDCD Albany at 285 miles, both on 1540 with 50kW day, but CHIN reduces power to 30kW at night.

 

[radioman148]

(I posted this to the IRCA list, so I hope it's OK to also post here for those that aren't on the IRCA list.)

Are there places, besides where I am, where you can nightly receive 2 or more co-channel stations running at least 50kW (or more, as may be the case for a few Mexican stations)? Here just south of El Cajon, CA, on 1580 I receive a fairly strong signal from KMIK Tempe, AZ (which is often as strong as some of my locals), as well as a sometimes too-easily-readable signal from KBLA Santa Monica, CA (whose 10 (?) Hz heterodyne makes KMIK less pleasant to listen to at night). Also, often I hear XEDM Hermosillo, SO, as well, but that's a tougher catch with the two other signals in the way. That makes THREE co-channel 50kW stations that are regularly heard here at night.

Also what are some situations where there are multiple stations licensed for at least 50kW at night in a relatively small area? I can think of 2 right off the bat... One is the aforementioned 1580s - KMIK, KBLA (371 miles west) and XEDM (302 miles south). (One thing I think is notable is XEDM is non-directional full time and KMIK is non-directional daytime, and both stations are only 302 miles apart.) The other is 1010 WINS New York, NY and CFRB Toronto, ON 339 miles northwest.

Anyone know of other situations like those? Any places where there are FOUR 50kW stations receivable on the same channel at night, or where there are at least two co-channel stations less than 300 miles away authorized for 50kW at night? (Extra listings in the FCC database (or whatever source you use) in the case of some Mexican (or other) stations don't count - ones where the transmitter sites may be some distance apart but use the same callsign, ones where they're co-located with different callsigns, and ones where there's 2 listings, one with the callsign and one with a 1 appended on the end of it.)

Regarding 1580, can you hear KMIK in the daytime too or just KBLA?
I know they both send most of their night time signals into the Pacific. When I was in Hawaii last year I heard KBLA regularly, but not KMIK.OTOH a Dxer in Australia reported hearing KMIK most often.

 

[KR4BD]

With the "right" conditions, I have heard these 50 kw night signals together in Lexington, KY:

880-WCBS & KRVN

1010-WINS & CFRB

1050-CHUM & WEPN

1080-WTIC & KRLD

1100-WBT & KFAB

1160-KSL & WRLL (and many lower powered stations)

1170-WWVA & KFAQ

1520-WWKB & KOKC (and many lower powered stations)

1540-KXEL & CHIN

 

[gar hi]

Every night on 740, it's both WYGM and KTRH.

Sometimes, CFMZ is in there too.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

KXEL, CHIN, and WDCD (heritage call letters WPTR) are close, but there's the CHIN 30 kW night thing. I also thought of WBBR/KWKH but the night breaks down with the nine tower club-WDFN (10), WISN (10), KFAN (25).

In engineering, physics, chemistry and the like, they often talk about degrees of freedom and constraints. Ever notice how tfcwings' questions often have too many constraints and too few degrees of freedom? Almost the same case as with designing those nine tower arrays. No way to get to 50 kW night.

 

[spunker88]

Where I am in Watertown-Carthage, NY, these two produce the most interference by far:

1010 WINS & CFRB
1050 WEPN & CHUM

Then there is the 50kw graveyard channel

1540 CHIN, WDCD, & KXEL

 

[vibe]

I have received 620 Milw and 620 St. Pete at 2 hrs before sunset in S.C.
680 Raleigh and 680 San Antonio at nite in SW Fla.
830 Worc MA and 830 Minneapolis at various locations in CT
850 Bos-850 Cleve here in Central Ma
1080 Hart and 1080 Dallas in central VA along I-81
1130 NYC and 1130 Shreveport in central VA on I-81, albeit 100 mi S
1540 Albany-troy and 1540 IA here in Central Ma at nite
I'm sure there are others-there are lots of places where both stations fade in and out.
I'm still trying for KOA in Central Ma during a local 850 fade; we can all hope.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

KBLA is the dominant daytime station here on 1580, although sometimes in the middle of winter it's possible to hear KMIK.

Too many restrictions?  Ok, I'll expand it a little.  While I still want situations in which the majority are at or near 50kW each, you may include stations that use less at night, so long as their ERP in the main (directional) lobe is at least 50kW, and it's a reasonably wide lobe, preferably at least 45-60° wide at the +/- 6dB points (peak must be at least 50kW, the entire +/- 6dB section doesn't, though.)  A pattern like 760 KFMB's nighttime pattern (they run 50kW at night anyway) is fine, but one like 1190 KFXR's nighttime pattern (who is disqualified anyway due to running only 5kW) is not.
Minimum nighttime transmit power is now 20kW, but you may include up to one down to 15kW and another down to 10kW, although you should already have at least 3 or 4 above 20kW.  Also, if you want to include sunrise/sunset situations too, that's fine.  They just need to be regular SR/SS (doesn't have to be both) occurrences (not "with the right (relatively rare) conditions", although if there's occasional nights when it doesn't happen that's ok), and at least 25kW, preferably 50kW in the day.

Also, even if I have to bend the suggested "rules" again, what would it take to get the "northern trio of high-powered stations" qualify?  Do they have 50kW ERP in their main lobes at least 135° (+/-6dB) wide, or do they each send at least 500-1000 µV/m 50% skywave into the same area every night?  Or would I need to think of something else?

In keeping with the title of the thread, at least half the stations should still be 50kW at night, and the ERP of those that are less should be at least 50kW peak in the main directional lobe.
Does anyone know of situations that would eclipse my 1580 KMIK+KBLA+XEDM=150kW situation?

Also a theoretical question... are there any places where a city's metro area is so large (and population/business/industrial density maintained at a fairly dense level like Los Angeles, New York, etc - not all spread out and sparsely populated like Jiuquan, Gansu, China or Altamira, Pará, Brazil - if the average home lot size is dozens of acres it doesn't qualify, but if homes average no more than a couple acres each that's ok), and the ground conductivity so poor, that it's possible to have TWO co-channel stations running 50kW non-directional daytime in the same metro area (serving different portions thereof, preferably below 1300 kHz but up to 1600 kHz would be ok)?

 

[radioman148]

1130 is really weird. I'm 60 miles south of Milwaukee but at night I hear WBBR (even though I'm in their null) and KWKH. Before sunrise WDFN comes in and before sunset KFAN. I only hear WISN well in mid day when the ionosphere is quiet.

1010--CFRB & WINS with CFRB usually winning.
1050--WLIP, with CHUM & WEPN in the background.

1110-KFAB strong pre-sunrise, rarely WBT. At night neither one comes in well, but usually KFAB wins.

1500--neither Washington nor St Paul as I'm in the null of both 50KWs. KSTP is sometimes in there faintly, but most often neither one comes in.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Can you get WAKE Valparaiso on 1500 at night, radioman? It's well protected but with just 25 watts. It's in the nulls from KSTP, WFED (WTOP), and WLQV.

WISN, WDFN, and KFAN have major lobes above any 50 kW reasonable reference efficiency. However, in general, antenna gain and beamwidth are inversely related. All have narrow beamwidth.

 

[Steve_Green]

In the Long Island days of nighttimes, 1540 used to be a mix of WPTR Albany, KXEL Waterloo and ZNS Bahamas.

Mostly it was WPTR. ZNS always seemed to've had low audio. I don't know if this qualifies in your thread, TFC, because if the three of them were all there some night, I don't remember them all mixing, like, say, 1400 stations used to exchange fades.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

I'll see if I can get a recording of KMIK, KBLA and XEDM mixing. Usually KMIK is on top (sometimes as strong as my 1-5kW locals less than 10 miles away), then KBLA (which sometimes rises above during KMIK's fades) with XEDM bringing up the rear, when it's audible.

 

[radioman148]

Can you get WAKE Valparaiso on 1500 at night, radioman? It's well protected but with just 25 watts. It's in the nulls from KSTP, WFED (WTOP), and WLQV.

WISN, WDFN, and KFAN have major lobes above any 50 kW reasonable reference efficiency. However, in general, antenna gain and beamwidth are inversely related. All have narrow beamwidth.

I did forget WAKE--it is in there, but I'm almost 50 miles north of Valparaiso. I forgot to mention 1080. Here it used to be WTIC & KRLD fighting it out, but now it's WNWI.
On a side note, I wonder what it's like up in Northern central Canada with KFAN, WISN, & WDFN all beaming that way at night? It must be interesting trying to make sense out of 1130 up there.

 

[cd637299]

I'll see if I can get a recording of KMIK, KBLA and XEDM mixing. Usually KMIK is on top (sometimes as strong as my 1-5kW locals less than 10 miles away), then KBLA (which sometimes rises above during KMIK's fades) with XEDM bringing up the rear, when it's audible.

I think that XEDM is only running 10kW now, but don't quote me. I know a member here on this board that keeps tabs on Mexican radio....maybe he has the scoop.

cd

 

[cyberdad]

A few off the top of my head far northwest suburbs of Chicago (including some higher than 50kw).....

730 CKAC and XEX
800 CKLW, XEROK, and TWR
820 WBAP and CHAM (Not sure offhand if CHAM is 50kw at night)
900 CHML and XEW
940 CBM (former) and XEQ
1000 WMVP (local) and XEOY (surprisingly common underneath)
1010 CFRB and WINS
1050 CHUM and XEG (Tincap, if you're out there...CHUM and WEPN are both strong at night where you are...or at least just to your west in Kingston and Belleville areas)
1060 KYW and XEEP
1080 KRLD and WTIC
1090 KAAY and WBAL
1110 KFAB and WBT
1130 KWKH, WBBR, and recently CKWX
1160 WYLL and KSL
1170 KFYI and WWVA
1220 WKNR and XEB
1500 KSTP and WTOP (WFED or whatever)
1520 KOKC and WWKB (or to me, KOMA and WKBW)

Some of these are rather rare, but I've heard all of them simultaneously at some point)

 

[radioman148]

A few off the top of my head far northwest suburbs of Chicago (including some higher than 50kw).....

730 CKAC and XEX
800 CKLW, XEROK, and TWR
820 WBAP and CHAM (Not sure offhand if CHAM is 50kw at night)
900 CHML and XEW
940 CBM (former) and XEQ
1000 WMVP (local) and XEOY (surprisingly common underneath)
1010 CFRB and WINS
1050 CHUM and XEG (Tincap, if you're out there...CHUM and WEPN are both strong at night where you are...or at least just to your west in Kingston and Belleville areas)
1060 KYW and XEEP
1080 KRLD and WTIC
1090 KAAY and WBAL
1110 KFAB and WBT
1130 KWKH, WBBR, and recently CKWX
1160 WYLL and KSL
1170 KFYI and WWVA
1220 WKNR and XEB
1500 KSTP and WTOP (WFED or whatever)
1520 KOKC and WWKB (or to me, KOMA and WKBW)

Some of these are rather rare, but I've heard all of them simultaneously at some point)

In my location near Chicago the only time I hear WBAL is pre sunset or sunrise. When they go directional at night I only hear KAAY.

 

[BRNout]

1130 is really weird. I'm 60 miles south of Milwaukee but at night I hear WBBR (even though I'm in their null) and KWKH. Before sunrise WDFN comes in and before sunset KFAN. I only hear WISN well in mid day when the ionosphere is quiet.

1010--CFRB & WINS with CFRB usually winning.
1050--WLIP, with CHUM & WEPN in the background.

1110-KFAB strong pre-sunrise, rarely WBT. At night neither one comes in well, but usually KFAB wins.

1500--neither Washington nor St Paul as I'm in the null of both 50KWs. KSTP is sometimes in there faintly, but most often neither one comes in.

Radioman, in most regards, my experience is similar to yours.

However, being closer to the WI border, I have reliable reception of WISN from sunrise to sunset. Most of the day it's actually sending more power to me than WLS does. As we approach twilight, first I can hear WDFN - and in the winter months it's pretty strong. Then later, after sunset, it's KWKH that dominates on most days - with KFAN usually present as well. WBBR is also almost always there at night too. Each of the above are stronger at night at my location than WISN is - despite WISN having a local-grade signal in my area during the day!

I've even heard CKWX here at around 9 pm on a winter's evening. That makes a mish-mosh of as many as SIX signals on 1130 on some nights!

On 1050, I'd love to be able to ID CHUM and/or WEPN - but I am close enough to Kenosha (relatively speaking) that WLIP dominates and it's hard to discern the other signals under it.

1500 is interesting because KSTP can be heard around evening twilight (before they power down) and I've actually copied a solid signal from them during the winter months - until they switch patterns. Yet they boom into Utah and Nevada at night! Same is true of KFAB - although IBOC hash from WTAM is what usually kills that frequency. Another to try for around sunset is KRVN 880 - it actually comes in better than WCBS at times until KRVN flips to night pattern. Then poof! They're gone.

I did forget WAKE--it is in there, but I'm almost 50 miles north of Valparaiso. I forgot to mention 1080. Here it used to be WTIC & KRLD fighting it out, but now it's WNWI.
On a side note, I wonder what it's like up in Northern central Canada with KFAN, WISN, & WDFN all beaming that way at night? It must be interesting trying to make sense out of 1130 up there.

No WAKE in my area. But 1080 is interesting because I get KRLD and a station which plays contemporary music at night. It is not WNWI. WTIC is never in the mix here. However, I was up in Green Bay, WI over the weekend and did positively ID a weak signal from WTIC - fighting it out with KRLD and the aforementioned music station. Can't get them in IL ever anymore.

In Green Bay, 1130 is WISN - though it is not as strong as I would have thought. Nulling them resulted in a weak WBBR. My guess is that you'd have to go pretty far up into Canada for the various 1130s to all be roughly equivalent in power. For the most part what you get would depend on your longitude - but it would change fast as you went from west to east (or vice versa). Those directional signals are quite narrow.

 

[radioman148]

1130 is really weird. I'm 60 miles south of Milwaukee but at night I hear WBBR (even though I'm in their null) and KWKH. Before sunrise WDFN comes in and before sunset KFAN. I only hear WISN well in mid day when the ionosphere is quiet.

1010--CFRB & WINS with CFRB usually winning.
1050--WLIP, with CHUM & WEPN in the background.

1110-KFAB strong pre-sunrise, rarely WBT. At night neither one comes in well, but usually KFAB wins.

1500--neither Washington nor St Paul as I'm in the null of both 50KWs. KSTP is sometimes in there faintly, but most often neither one comes in.

Radioman, in most regards, my experience is similar to yours.

However, being closer to the WI border, I have reliable reception of WISN from sunrise to sunset. Most of the day it's actually sending more power to me than WLS does. As we approach twilight, first I can hear WDFN - and in the winter months it's pretty strong. Then later, after sunset, it's KWKH that dominates on most days - with KFAN usually present as well. WBBR is also almost always there at night too. Each of the above are stronger at night at my location than WISN is - despite WISN having a local-grade signal in my area during the day!

I've even heard CKWX here at around 9 pm on a winter's evening. That makes a mish-mosh of as many as SIX signals on 1130 on some nights!

On 1050, I'd love to be able to ID CHUM and/or WEPN - but I am close enough to Kenosha (relatively speaking) that WLIP dominates and it's hard to discern the other signals under it.

1500 is interesting because KSTP can be heard around evening twilight (before they power down) and I've actually copied a solid signal from them during the winter months - until they switch patterns. Yet they boom into Utah and Nevada at night! Same is true of KFAB - although IBOC hash from WTAM is what usually kills that frequency. Another to try for around sunset is KRVN 880 - it actually comes in better than WCBS at times until KRVN flips to night pattern. Then poof! They're gone.

I did forget WAKE--it is in there, but I'm almost 50 miles north of Valparaiso. I forgot to mention 1080. Here it used to be WTIC & KRLD fighting it out, but now it's WNWI.
On a side note, I wonder what it's like up in Northern central Canada with KFAN, WISN, & WDFN all beaming that way at night? It must be interesting trying to make sense out of 1130 up there.

No WAKE in my area. But 1080 is interesting because I get KRLD and a station which plays contemporary music at night. It is not WNWI. WTIC is never in the mix here. However, I was up in Green Bay, WI over the weekend and did positively ID a weak signal from WTIC - fighting it out with KRLD and the aforementioned music station. Can't get them in IL ever anymore.

In Green Bay, 1130 is WISN - though it is not as strong as I would have thought. Nulling them resulted in a weak WBBR. My guess is that you'd have to go pretty far up into Canada for the various 1130s to all be roughly equivalent in power. For the most part what you get would depend on your longitude - but it would change fast as you went from west to east (or vice versa). Those directional signals are quite narrow.

WISN's signal for me is VG during the day, but at night it's gone. I've gotten KRVN many times right before they change their pattern. Back in the 70s before KRVN was on all night I could hear WCBS on the west coast.
KFAB is interesting. If you're in LA you get 1110 in Pasadena, but if you go 60 miles east at night past San Bernardino you can get KFAB.

 

[cyberdad]

1090: WBAL/KAAY. Back in KAAY's top 40 days, when their nighttime signal was better than it tends to be now, I'd hear WBAL underneath every once in a while. Didn't happen very often, but every now and then during a KAAY fade. Haven't heard WBAL (on night pattern) recently.