Multiple NPR Outlets in Rochester (was WROC Rumor Mill)

[aaronread]

As much as I would love to have an outlet for my show in the Flower City, I know it will never happen. I just can't see WEOS, WRVO, or WAMC expanding into the Rochester market.

WRVO has tried for years to get some kind of signal in Rochester. They had several translator applications from 2003 along the eastern suburbs, like Webster and whatnot. Several got dismissed, I think mostly because they were over the 10-app limit or because the technical landscape changed between 2003 and now. I have no idea if WXXI did anything, formally or informally, in those proceedings...but it wouldn't surprise me if they did; it's smart business, ya know? After all, I won't deny that I was not thrilled by WRVO putting up that translator in Geneva.

I hadn't thought of WAMC trying to get into Rochester, and it seems a bit far-fetched but, then again, WAMC has not been shy about trying to expand their reach far, far outside of Albany. :

I'd like to expand on something Mr. Giardina said earlier in this thread. He mentioned that WXXI would never (allow) another NPR station to enter the market. To that end, couldn't they make the core NPR shows "market exclusive" to the WXXI stations?

Short answer: no. NPR does not allow any member station to have market exclusivity over another member station. The only exception is that full NPR member stations have right of first refusal over grandfathered auxiliary (rural market) NPR members. WEOS is one of those handful (I think there's only four or five left in the whole USA) grandfathered auxiliary members. If WRVO, WXXI or WSKG moves into the Geneva market, or if WEOS moves into one of their markets, then the full NPR member can demand that WEOS stop airing an NPR show that the full member wants to air. But it's only in regards to programming the full member airs; if the full member airs Diane Rehm and the auxiliary member wants to air OnPoint, then the full member cannot "deny" the auxiliary member unless the full member drops Rehm and picks up OnPoint. This is happening right now with WEOS putting WITH on the air in Ithaca, in regards to WSKG's station WSQC 90.9, also licensed to Ithaca. It's a giant pain in our ass, to put it mildly...I have to find a LOT of alternative programming and some of it is pretty expensive.

For those who wonder, FM translators "don't count" in these issues...only Class-A-or-better FM's and AM's. That's why our translator W201CD hasn't triggered this rule. Also because WEOS doesn't own W201CD, Ithaca Community Radio does. Similarly, I don't think HD2 or HD3 channels "count" either.

This only applies to NPR shows. Public Radio Int'l has no such rule, and the only PRI show that allows market exclusivity is Whad'ya Know. AFAIK, American Public Media has no exclusivity of any kind. Neither does Democracy Now, Pacifica Radio, or most of the completely independent shows.

If it's any consolation, I'd like to point out that there are still a handful of opportunities for community members to have access to the airwaves in Rochester, which I assume is what Voice of Reason is ultimately advocating here. WGMC, WBER, and WITR are always looking for volunteers, providing that your show fits their format, of course.

Quite honestly, this is more access to the airwaves than most cities have for community volunteers. All three stations have decent-to-excellent signals and still have SOME room for new members. Most cities I know have one or two community signals and they're already booked solid in their air schedule...or they only have weak, tiny signals that aren't really worth the effort. Granted, I'm not familiar with EVERY city out there, but my hunch is that we shouldn't sell Rochester short in this dep't.

 

[Mark Giardina]

I think the Rochester market is large enough to afford two NPR affiliates. After all both stations don't have to air the same programs.

Scott mentioned that there are already alternative programs being aired on WRUR and WGMC. Granted that is true. But a second NPR affiliate could also air shows that WXXI neither carries or wishes to as part of its format.

I am a strong believer in competition and right now there isn't that much competition in the Rochester market. Take for example WBEE. It's number 1 in the ratings in large part because of its talent and music. But also remember that it's the ONLY station with a large enough signal that plays country music. Big Dog Country may run TV ads, but how many people can actually hear that station in their car radio?

What do we have to lose by having another NPR station in Rochester? If it works then great. If it fails to generate an audience and revenue, then it will pass into history.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Commercial NPR

Just out of curiosity...

Can a commercial station carry NPR and other traditionally non-commercial content? For example, could WROC carry programs that are not aired locally?

With NPR's recent surge in numbers, along with the looser interpretation of the rules for "underwriting spots", might that idea not be economically viable?

 

[Philip_Airtime]

Rox, you bring up a good question here. Perhaps someone like Aaronread, who is in management, has more knowledge about this. But based on everything I know, I think the answer is no. NPR is essentially owned by its member stations. So, I doubt the board would approve the sale of one of its shows to a commercial outlet. Then again, the NPR board has approved the airing of many of its programs to a commercial satellite system, Sirius. Underwriting has nothing to do with this. While you can't run commercials on a public station, I would think a public radio show airing on a commercial station could include commercials in the breaks. Some public radio shows like Democracy Now and programs produced by WAMC's Northest Productions do air on commercial stations in some markets. But I have never heard of a high profile NPR show airing on a commercial station. Keep in mind that NPR does not produce all that many shows. It concentrates on its news magazines and such successful shows as Fresh Air, Car Talk, Wait Wait and a few others. If a show fails to receive carriage by enough public radio stations, then it's canceled. The highly regarded Bryant Park Project is the most recent example of that.

 

[audio4tv]

This only applies to NPR shows. Public Radio Int'l has no such rule, and the only PRI show that allows market exclusivity is Whad'ya Know. AFAIK, American Public Media has no exclusivity of any kind. Neither does Democracy Now, Pacifica Radio, or most of the completely independent shows.

PRI and APM do have market exclusive shows. This is done in individual program rights, and on the basis of affiliation (PRI has primary, secondary, and tertiary affiliates which get rights of refusal). Thus, in Rochester, no one else can carry Whadya Know or A Prairie Home Companion (WEOS is a PRI primary affiliate for Geneva, treated as a seperate market by PRI and likely APM). Others are time slot exclusive. Still others are non-exclusive.

 

[Ed Trefzger]

What about other non-NPR non-comms in a market? Would, for example, NPR allow WGMC air Marian McPartland through an arrangement with WXXI?

 

[audio4tv]

Re: Commercial NPR

Just out of curiosity...

Can a commercial station carry NPR and other traditionally non-commercial content? For example, could WROC carry programs that are not aired locally?

With NPR's recent surge in numbers, along with the looser interpretation of the rules for "underwriting spots", might that idea not be economically viable?

Technically, yes. Any radio station can become a program purchaser of NPR programming. And for that matter, non-APM and non-PRI affiliates can also purchase programming. It usually involves an administrative fee in lieu of membership/affiliation, right of first refusal of the existing member/affiliate, and paying the program costs for that program based on the market and program formulas. The station also has to get the program, which if live, is via PRSS, which means they must pay for the downlink equipment and at least a minimal D/I fee. For file delivered content, they can access it via Content Depot over the web.
As for a commercial station, they could ask to carry a program. However, they could not sell commercials. They have to abide by the same rules non-commercials stations do, in terms of their adjacent and internal announcements, at least in terms of NPR programs. PRI and APM also likely have similar rules.
I do know of at least one or two commercial stations that carried NPR and PRI programs in the past. I do not know if this is still happening. WAMC's production arm does allow its programming on commercial stations, as do some other public radio programs, such as E-Town.

 

[audio4tv]

What about other non-NPR non-comms in a market? Would, for example, NPR allow WGMC air Marian McPartland through an arrangement with WXXI?

In short, yes, but under the terms you stated. If a member drops a show, then if could be picked up by another non-com if they pay for it, and any other fees charged by NPR to acquire it. I should add, that the member could also pick it back up again, even if the other station is airing it.

 

[aaronread]

PRI and APM do have market exclusive shows. This is done in individual program rights, and on the basis of affiliation (PRI has primary, secondary, and tertiary affiliates which get rights of refusal). Thus, in Rochester, no one else can carry Whadya Know or A Prairie Home Companion (WEOS is a PRI primary affiliate for Geneva, treated as a seperate market by PRI and likely APM). Others are time slot exclusive. Still others are non-exclusive.

Really? Hells bells, I had no idea...our PRI rep never mentioned the three levels of affiliation. But admittedly I didn't specifically ask him about it, either. I had assumed APM was the same as PRI, but we don't air much APM programming (just American Routes) so I hadn't really thought much about it.

 

[audio4tv]

Really? Hells bells, I had no idea...our PRI rep never mentioned the three levels of affiliation. But admittedly I didn't specifically ask him about it, either. I had assumed APM was the same as PRI, but we don't air much APM programming (just American Routes) so I hadn't really thought much about it.

A bit of history: WEOS became an APR (American Public Radio, PRI's old name) tertiary affiliate in 1990, due to WXXI AM & FM having the first two in the Rochester Market. That was fine, as there was very little overlap in programming choices, with one exception: WXXI had exclusive rights to A Prairie Home Companion and its short name change, American Radio Company of the Air. It chose to drop the program, and APR offered it to WEOS. WEOS now had the rights to the show for the Rochester market. In fact, for a time, Garrison Keillor could only be heard in Buffalo, Geneva, and Albany, as WRVO did not carry it. I forget the date, but WXXI wanted to carry it again, and PRI told them, no, WEOS had the exclusive rights in the Rochester market. After much discussion, WXXI became a Primary PRI member for Rochester, and WEOS would become a Primary affiliate on its own, east of Rochester. At the moment, WXXI-FM, WXXI-AM, and WRUR-FM are the 3 affiliates in Rochester for PRI. When APM took over APHC, WEOS dropped the show due to the high cost, complicated by an additional affiliation fee.

 

[aaronread]

Rhetorically speaking...how can three stations owned by the same organization take up all three tiers? Just seems kinda silly, ya know?

Yes, I know WXXI doesn't actually own WRUR, but for purposes of this discussion they might as well.

 

[audio4tv]

Rhetorically speaking...how can three stations owned by the same organization take up all three tiers? Just seems kinda silly, ya know?
Yes, I know WXXI doesn't actually own WRUR, but for purposes of this discussion they might as well.

To answer the question, non-retorically, yes they can. It has to do with pricing of affiliation fees. Instead of the full price, there is a 15% discount for tertiary stations. And, it will guarantee you have access to programs you want.

 

[dampier]

IMHO, the last thing we need is another turnkey radio station, whether it runs the rejects WXXI doesn't carry or some other programming outlet. As we've seen time after time, radio stations that do nothing but pick up a signal off a satellite just do not do well in the ratings. As IBOC slowly works its way into some sort of presence, WXXI need only run other shows on one of the digital mini-channels. They could run everything, assuming they had enough money to buy all of those shows. But the fundamental issue of localism is never addressed.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned WBEE and the general lack of competition. A few months ago, when I last bothered with local radio, WBEE did have some competition on the far east side with the country station in Wayne county, plus I believe 107.3 was running automated country at the time as well, with little/no advertising and generic, obviously pre-recorded drops. It was probably the best kept secret in town - another generic radio station run from a closet.

I have use for WXXI primarily for Bob Smith's show, which is one of the few bright lights in a vast wasteland of political and social outrage garbage that passes for quality local radio over on WHAM (Lonsberry's "mini-me" performance on the topic of the week and his shoot from the hip pronouncements on the ills of urban life... from his bunker in Livingston county, being only the most recent example). Spending an hour listening to a professor discussing the history of western New York and the state in general gave me more insight and education in an hour than you'll get from the clueless callers crowding in to stand in the amen corner with Mr. Lonsberry and the knuckle draggers for an entire year.

I remember WHAM in the 1970s and early 1980s had talk shows that weren't all that different from what WXXI-AM airs today, albeit perhaps a touch less esoteric on some days. The topics are varied enough and the questions intelligent enough that there is something for everyone. When they used to keep Kinnicut on a leash pre-Fairness Doctrine repeal, he was tolerable. After that, we got hours of Kinnicut gay bashing and suggesting that mosquitos biting gay men would then bite you and give you AIDS. That's compelling radio.

I can honestly recall some shows on 1370 Connection that I remember ten years after the fact, such as the former Lt. Governor under George Pataki who said some astonishing things for an establishment Republican on his show. The last things I can remember from Lonsberry was his Wonder Bra competition, and hollering at callers during snowstorms who called up to complain about poor government because the plow hadn't shown up. Hmmm... imagine that - conservatives who hate government calling a conservative talk radio station to complain about government, but getting screamed at by Lonsberry for complaining. Some government, particularly depending on who is running it, is apparently good after all.

Would I like to see the WXXI behemoth challenged locally? Sure, because competition is always a great motivator to invest in quality programming and not simply bloat management and get fat and lazy along the way. But what we really need is true COMMUNITY RADIO. WXXI is "community radio" if it were a low power outlet that blanketed East/Park Avenue eastward into Brighton and Pittsford. It has grown too elitist and out of touch with the underserved parts of our community that public broadcasting should be serving. I'm not sure how many listeners in northeastern Rochester are spending their mornings with Diane Rehm, much less pondering the subtle wit and wisdom of Garrison Keillor.

Build a studio in the heart of the city and actually program it for the residents, in Spanish and English, to delve into social struggles being faced by ordinary people who are never going to afford pledging enough to qualify for the rainforest protecting canvas tote bag. Open the microphones up and let people talk to people who all live in 585. There is time to run satellite programming overnight, and maybe even grab As It Happens from the CBC, a fine alternative to All Things Considered. And then perhaps place a satellite studio down in Canandaigua or Geneseo at one of the colleges and create programming of interest to rural communities to the south of the city. The key is local people talking to local people.

Otherwise, get XM or Sirius and you'll get all the satellite radio you want in one convenient package. Commercial-free for the music, and pledge-drive free for the public radio-style programs. And it sounds better than AM radio anyway.

 

[w9wi]

Re: Commercial NPR

Just out of curiosity...

Can a commercial station carry NPR and other traditionally non-commercial content? For example, could WROC carry programs that are not aired locally?

With NPR's recent surge in numbers, along with the looser interpretation of the rules for "underwriting spots", might that idea not be economically viable?

Technically, yes. Any radio station can become a program purchaser of NPR programming. And for that matter, non-APM and non-PRI affiliates can also purchase programming. It usually

Commercial WRLT here in Nashville carried Mountain Stage for awhile. Don't know if they still do.

If you look at the Wisconsin threads in the retro TV board you'll see it was quite common for commercial (TV) stations to carry PBS fare in the early 70s before many places had non-commercial stations.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Well, now that Mr. Dampier has determined the programming for an alternate outlet, he just needs to figure out how to make money with it...