My question again is...

[radiorob2.0]

Remember those monster console AM/FM/TV combos from the old days? With the TV in use the FM would work, the AM section not so much. It

I remember them. And who in their right mind is going to listen to the radio and watch the TV at the same time? Especially AM radio?

I can understand FM stereo simulcasts of televised concerts......but AM? ???

Actually, before the FM stereo standard was established some stations would use FM (mono) and AM to achieve the effect. The left channel information was transmitted on the AM signal and the right channel information on FM. You placed an AM radio on the left and FM radio on the right and, ta-da, stereo. Obviously the big AM/FM/TV combos didn't have this ability since you had to have AM and FM at the same time, but two portable or table radio could achieve this effect.

And as far as why anyone in their right mind would listen to radio and watch TV is concerned, remember MTV in the early 80's. Before the stereo standard for television they would promote stereo sound via FM cable. You placed a Panasonic Thruster on either side of your console television and, ta-da, stereo sound. Here's a trip in the wayback machine.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q32EOe9o2_E&feature=related

Golly, I'm getting old.

 

[Mike Walker]

With all respect, RF..."dead technology" os technology that's not being used any more. As a sonsumer format, reel to reel tape is dead, that's fair. It's also fair to say that it's nearly dead in radio, although many stations keep machines running to play archived material. But in the world of recording, it's not only not "dead", it's thriving. Many producers, engineers, and artists love the "warm" sound of analog tape "hit hard". No, the market isn't growing. And it's hard to keep tape manufacturing alive just for the recording market (let's face it, for decades reel to reel tape was consumed mostly by the thousands of radio stations across the US). But analog tape is neither dead, nor dying IN THE RECORDING INDUSTRY.

The definition of "dead technology" would have to be technology that nobody uses. Analog tape sure doesn't meet this definition. There are lots of recording studios in the NYC area. Chat with an engineer at one, and see if he/she tells you analog tape is "dead"!

 

[radiorob2.0]

Actually, the reel to reel is almost dead. Otari is the last manufacturer of new machines
http://www.otari.com/product/audio/mx_5050b/index.html And that is simply a two track with the option of four track playback. Beyond that, it's the second hand market. The manufacturers who use to make the machines might support the old products but many have moved on.

As far as the purchasing new tape, good luck. Quantegy dropped analog tape a year ago. http://www.quantegy.com/ and they were it.

I'm in the middle of gathering information for a digitalization project. The head of Indiana University's "Sound Direction" Project made it clear, get it off tape now. Because the machines and accessories like calibration tapes are disappearing. Plus, the people who know how to relap heads are becoming few and far between.

I agree that there is something about recording on analog tape but with sample and bit rates standards increasing you can achieve the detail recording digital.

 

[Mike Walker]

radiorob2.0, it's not about "achieving detail". It's (recording to analog tape) about achieving a particular SOUND. Yes, it's a (euphonic) form of distortion. But many love it. Personally, i"m all digital, and have been for some time. But I know from reading recording magazines that a HUGE percentage of music on the radio...perhaps as high as 40-50 percent, still originates at least partially on analog tape. And analog tape doesn't "die" when they quit making machines! Those Otaris of which you speak are built like tanks. Properly maintained, they'll still be running long after I'm in the ground.

Think of all the archived material out there on analog tape that's NEVER been transferred to digital. There will always be SOME demand for devices to play them. The market for analog tape is contracting, as did the market for phono playback a few years back. But there will shake out to be a manufacturer or two that continues to turn out machines. Whenever there's a market, even if it's a tiny niche (as the recording industry is), someone will fill it.

So again, the definition of "dead technology" has to be "nobody is using it anymore". That sure as hell isn't true where analog tape is concerned. Is the patient sick? You betcha'. But sick ain't "dead". When you can't listen to the radio for an hour without hearing multiple things that originated on analog tape, it's pretty damn far from dead! I refer you to magazines like "Mix", "EQ", and "Recording", where interviews with engineers and producers are regular features. I think you might be surprised at just how common analog tape is in what's being recorded and mixed NOW! Hell, the much newer technology of dat tape is far closer to the grave than analog tape!

 

[R.F. Burns]

I disagree Mike. We still use DAT tape to back up our programs which are airing from computer. You can still buy new dats machines. Yes, they are few and far between but they do exist. Blank dat tape is still being manufactured and sold. I am going to be picking up my Ampex 351 from my friend tomorrow (It has the original tube electronics). I wish I knew what to do with it. Part of me wants to keep it as an artifact but I guess its destined to end up in storage. I have the MCI when I want to play back reels, but years ago I transfered most of my reel to reel tape to dat years ago, but I still have a lot of 1/4 inch blank 10 inch reels (Quantagy/Ampex & 3M). One of the major problems with reel to reel storage is that many tapes manufactured in the 80's suffer from gummy adhesive and need to be baked before they can be played. Commercially, reel to reel is for all intense and purposes dead. I still have cylinder machines, that doesn't mean it's a viable format or the old Presto disc cutters for that matter.

 

[Savage]

RF, whaddya got for cylinder machines? Edison Standard or Home? 2 or 4-minute?

Ever tried using a modern stereo cartridge rigged to play a 4-minute Blue Amberol cylinder? The quality, when played back through an amp and speaker, is absolutely eerie. The stereo stylus will respond to the vertical cut in the groove just fine - and you'll hear a completely amazing naturalness in the human voice.

 

[radiorob2.0]

radiorob2.0, it's not about "achieving detail". It's (recording to analog tape) about achieving a particular SOUND. Yes, it's a (euphonic) form of distortion. But many love it. Personally, i"m all digital, and have been for some time. But I know from reading recording magazines that a HUGE percentage of music on the radio...perhaps as high as 40-50 percent, still originates at least partially on analog tape. And analog tape doesn't "die" when they quit making machines! Those Otaris of which you speak are built like tanks. Properly maintained, they'll still be running long after I'm in the ground.

Think of all the archived material out there on analog tape that's NEVER been transferred to digital. There will always be SOME demand for devices to play them. The market for analog tape is contracting, as did the market for phono playback a few years back. But there will shake out to be a manufacturer or two that continues to turn out machines. Whenever there's a market, even if it's a tiny niche (as the recording industry is), someone will fill it.

So again, the definition of "dead technology" has to be "nobody is using it anymore". That sure as hell isn't true where analog tape is concerned. Is the patient sick? You betcha'. But sick ain't "dead". When you can't listen to the radio for an hour without hearing multiple things that originated on analog tape, it's pretty damn far from dead! I refer you to magazines like "Mix", "EQ", and "Recording", where interviews with engineers and producers are regular features. I think you might be surprised at just how common analog tape is in what's being recorded and mixed NOW! Hell, the much newer technology of dat tape is far closer to the grave than analog tape!

Mike,

As I much as your "cup is half full" view on technology is appreciated, there are realities that must be considered. There is a certain something about a reel to reel that add "that sound" to a recording. But when maintenance (example: calibration tapes and head relapping) and media are becoming harder to find, then you have to find another way to achieve the effect. Then there is the formulation defect of the blacked backed tape that tends to ruin your day in the studio. Some studio engineers still use analog but many have moved on to digital for the reason I mention but use outboard analog processing to give it a certain "je ne sais quoi" sound. Digital recording bit and sample rates are increasing so the detail advantage analog tape had over digital is also a moot point.

Ten years down the road you will see a reel to reel on occasion, and it will probably be an Otari , but life and technology goes on.

 

[Chuck]

I disagree Mike. We still use DAT tape to back up our programs which are airing from computer. You can still buy new dats machines. Yes, they are few and far between but they do exist. Blank dat tape is still being manufactured and sold. I am going to be picking up my Ampex 351 from my friend tomorrow (It has the original tube electronics). I wish I knew what to do with it. Part of me wants to keep it as an artifact but I guess its destined to end up in storage. I have the MCI when I want to play back reels, but years ago I transfered most of my reel to reel tape to dat years ago, but I still have a lot of 1/4 inch blank 10 inch reels (Quantagy/Ampex & 3M). One of the major problems with reel to reel storage is that many tapes manufactured in the 80's suffer from gummy adhesive and need to be baked before they can be played. Commercially, reel to reel is for all intense and purposes dead. I still have cylinder machines, that doesn't mean it's a viable format or the old Presto disc cutters for that matter.

There is an Ampex Users Group on the Internet. I don't know the address at the moment, but it shouldn't be very hard to find. There are a lot of people out there who still want an Ampex recorder. A few years ago, I had a large truck load of Ampex 300 duplicator decks that found new homes through that user group. You might want to check it out.

Back to the original question, I tend to agree with Mike that analog will be around for quite some time. The change will be evolutionary, not revolutionary. That even goes for video in non-broadcast applications, like CCTV, industrial video, event video and some commercial production. The US is the only place that shuts off analog Broadcast TV in a year. The rest of the world doesn't seem to be in much of a hurry.

It certainly is easier to do things digitally, but it will take a long time before all the analog infrastructure goes away. I am wondering where we are going to put all of this stuff... In March of 2009, you'll probably be able to get a heck of a deal on a slightly used analog TV.

 

[R.F. Burns]

RF, whaddya got for cylinder machines? Edison Standard or Home? 2 or 4-minute?

Ever tried using a modern stereo cartridge rigged to play a 4-minute Blue Amberol cylinder? The quality, when played back through an amp and speaker, is absolutely eerie. The stereo stylus will respond to the vertical cut in the groove just fine - and you'll hear a completely amazing naturalness in the human voice.

Hi Bob, I have a Home B with 2/4 attachment and the orginal 2 & 4 minute reproducers. I also have a Columbia BK 2 minute machine with a large original flowered horn. My cylinders go back to some brown wax from the late 19th century. I have a fairly good collection of 4 minute Amberol cylinders ad even 1 purple Amberol cylinder. No Pink Lambert or concert cylinders though. Actually there is a commercialy manufactured cylinder reproducer available today;

http://www.archeophone.org/warcheophone_specifications.php

the price; $16,250

By the way I also have a Victor Victrola VV-XIV. I've had that one for over 40 years now.

 

[Mike Walker]

I KNOW reel to reel is dead or dying in radio. But IT IS NOT in the recording industry. I refer you to the publications I mentioned in an earlier post dedicated to recording. LOTS of studios use Reel to Reel. Again, you'd be shocked at how common it is. DAT, a far newer medium, truly is dying. That digital data, RF, can simply be stored on more convenient, modern (usually optical) media...media that's also more stable over time! I know, the same can be said of reel to reel. I'm not "singing it's praises" myself. I no longer own a reel recorder. But I'm tellin' you, they're HUGE in recording studios.

I'm not sure if they still use those three-letter symbols on cds (the first telling you the format of the original recording, the second the format used to mix/master to, and the third the format you were holding in your hot little hand.). In the case of cd, that third letter was always "d" because cds are digital. But if it's still in use, perhaps half of the pop/rock/country recordings would read a/a/d...in the case of a recording where the multitrack was analog, and the mixdown deck analog, or d/a/d...probably more common, as analog tape is often used as a mixdown/mastering format to deliberately add that "analog warmth"

This website (among many others) confirms what I've just told you...that approximately 50 percent of recordings made TODAY include analog tape at some point along the way http://www.record-producer.com/index.cfm?cid=1

Don't take my word for it. Do your own Google search for something like "recording studios using analog tape". You'll be knee-deep in evidence of what I've told you, and quickly! DAT, not so much!

 

[Chuck]

DAT, not so much!

DAT is nearly dead technology. Most people in the audio industry have given up on it because the machines have required a lot of repairs and maintenance. I know several folks who have them sitting in a store room or closet. They don't even make very effective door stops. Usually the machines have something wrong with the transport and the owner doesn't want to spend the money to repair them. It is just too easy (and cheap) to burn a CD.

 

[Mike Walker]

Why a reasonable case could be made for the continued use of analog reel-to-reel tape (though I may not agree with that case), continued reliance on dat tape for archival purposes means risking your data unnecessarily, because, as Chuck pointed out, far more robust optical media is readily available, and costs far less.

Chance of optical media being readable after a half-century of proper storage? Pretty damn good...probably between 95 and 100 percent.

Chance of dat tape being readable after the same half-century? Virtually zilch.

Do yourself a favor, get your digital archives onto an optical medium for longterm storage AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! Don't wait till it's too late (have you played your oldest dat tapes lately?????)

 

[R.F. Burns]

Yes I have and they play with no problem. Alignment is what it's all about. Not all CD-R's are the same either. Some have flaking problems and easily scratch. The DAT came out before CD-R which is why one was the digital option when the other wasn't. We still archive with DAT & we also USE CD-R. As I've said, DATS are still manufactured, Reel to Reel isn't.

 

[Mike Walker]

Audio tape isn't manufactured in the US. Not the same thing as not being manufactured. And didn't I read that the former Quantegy factory was reopening?

Magnetic tape, whether dat, vhs, open reel, or cassette is the same basic thing...only in different widths (and I know, with different magnetic properties...but that's why God gave us bias/eq controls). It ain't rocket science. As long as there's a demand, there will be a supply. And with half of all recordings being made NOW involving analog tape, there's sure a demand.

I can show you TONS of studios still using analog tape. DAT? Not so much! (I have a GREAT Sony DTC-A5 with Super Bit Mapping collecting dust. With cheap cd and dvd, which will be much more stable over time, and never "flake" or need alignment, why the hell would I use magnetic tape? It would be like urging people in the lp era to return to wax cylinders!)

 

[dbdigital]

DAT, not so much!

DAT is nearly dead technology. Most people in the audio industry have given up on it because the machines have required a lot of repairs and maintenance. I know several folks who have them sitting in a store room or closet. They don't even make very effective door stops. Usually the machines have something wrong with the transport and the owner doesn't want to spend the money to repair them. It is just too easy (and cheap) to burn a CD.

About the only industry I'm seeing DAT recorders in use is the motion picture industry and even with that there seems to be a slow shift to portable HD-based recorders (and good luck trying to find new DAT machines).

The problem with DAT is not only the transports but also the medium. We're finding that the exotic metal tape formulations are just not holding up in storage, even under climate controlled conditions. Our policy where I work is to back up masters every five years (hopefully) on the next generation of storage. Right now we're backing up DAT tapes onto DVCPro.

Surprisingly, manyof our oxide tape masters are holding up well. We have some 20 year old 1" video masters that are still playable.

There's been a lot of talk about Blu-Ray and it's ability to hold up to 50GB of content (imagine storing your entire music library on one disc). The problem is the longevity of the substrate on recordable Blu-Ray media. That is an unknown factor at this point.

db

 

[Mike Walker]

You're right dbdigital that the longevity of Blu Ray is an "unkown factor". Even so, I'd bet the farm on it's longevity vs. magnetic tape, analog or digital.

 

[dbdigital]

You're right dbdigital that the longevity of Blu Ray is an "unkown factor". Even so, I'd bet the farm on it's longevity vs. magnetic tape, analog or digital.

It's hard to say, Mike. If DVD-R is any indicator, then I don't hold much hope for Blu-Ray. It seems after a few plays our DVD-Rs become coasters.

But I hope you're right. It would be great to store projects and media on something as inexpensive as Blu Ray discs. We're expecting to get an external drive here soon and try it out.

db

 

[R.F. Burns]

That's interesting news about DAT tapes. I have DATs which are nearly 10 years old and they play the same todayt as they did the day they were recorded. We still record every newscast onto a archive dat and have since the 90's and of the 1,000's of dats I've never seen one fail. The onjly issue I have seen with dat concerns head alignment. As long as you heads are in good shape and properly aligned we haven't had any problems with Dat storage.

 

[R.F. Burns]

That's interesting news about DAT tapes. I have DATs which are nearly 10 years old and they play the same todayt as they did the day they were recorded. We still record every newscast onto a archive dat and have since the 90's and of the 1,000's of dats I've never seen one fail. The onjly issue I have seen with dat concerns head alignment. As long as you heads are in good shape and properly aligned we haven't had any problems with Dat storage.

 

[KB1OKL]

Do you think they will kill off analog radio in 5-10 years like they will on analog TV? If so I may not be loyal to radio any more. I can get reception great on analog. I use to support big on HDradio untill I figured out how hard it is to DX it. If they kill out analog, I'll be going to another source like maybe satellite radio. I think that would be a big down for radio if they kill analog. Anyway just my thoughts.

No, it will be the opposite IBOC will be gone, although kill off is much too strong of a word, fade unnoticably away is more like it.