My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

[carlvenorden]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Mr. Fry, why do you keep quoting values for a 1/4 wave antenna???with 1000 watts or more???????what does this have to do with our subject matter? You have been doing this for years now.
I see no correlation to the subject at all.

Why are we confusing part fifteeners' with useless information.??????????????

Lets give them the tools to get on the air; tell them best how to do it without talking about commercial radio. Except for a tiny transmitter and antenna there is no comparrison in the real world.
C'mon buddy, I know you can do it.
Lets get really real and tell it like it really is.
No theory, no FCC numbers, no old tests.
Test it like it is today, and report on what you find.
OK????????????

I've had success doing what I do the way I build it cause I tested it again and again.
This is what works today.
Radio has changed, the airwaves are crowded and full of hash now.
Lets just tell it like it is, not the way it was yesterday, and this goes for everyone.
<It's my viewpoint; I don't care what you say, but lets just be realistic, ok?>

 

[phatdaddy]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

This reminds me of the "Lowfers" groups who operate stations down in the 160-190 kHz range. As might be expected, the extremely long wavelengths here mean that any practical antenna we could erect in a back yard has an efficiency probably similar to that of a 10' Part 15 vertical. There were hams running modified audio amplifiers as transmitters generating 100 or more Watts, but the effective radiated power was down in the 1 Watt range or less. The secret of course is in the receivers! The unfortunate law of physics is that we simply cannot legally generate enough signal with our Part 15 facilities to do much good with a "Flavoradio" or some Trashtronic clock radio for more than a few hundred feet. I think that in order to have a really successful Part 15 station we have to sell ourselves to potential listeners. This is being done in a number of cases and the listeners of these stations are willing to go the extra mile in terms of getting a better quality radio, a loop receiving antenna, etc.

The typical el-cheapo receiver is not really capable of "pulling in" signals in the classic sense. Their sensitivity is so poor that the signal has to be crammed into the things before they will respond. The typical auto radio has an RF amplifier stage to boost the incoming signals and at least the older radios had tuning circuits which varied according to where the receiver was tuned. This allowed the receiver to have maximum sensitivity and selectivity anywhere in the band. This is the main reason why car radios always do much better than a typical in-home receiver for Part-15.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if your Part-15 is doing around a mile or two to a good car radio, you're doing OK. This is in accordance with the laws of physics. Anything better than this is gravy and those who have this performance are fortunate indeed.

 

[rfry]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Mr. Fry, why do you keep quoting values for a 1/4 wave antenna???with 1000 watts or more???????what does this have to do with our subject matter? You have been doing this for years now. I see no correlation to the subject at all.

The reason I refer to the performance of 1/4-wave radiators with 120 1/4-wave radials when posting about Part 15 AM is because their real-world performance is well known and documented, and serves as a benchmark, or standard radiator. Then their performance can be scaled to apply to Part 15 AM systems by using the methods in my posts.

"MY" job is to help people put on a small part 15 station under the best possible conditions, and to make it possible to overcome the worst conditions. I think that is what it is all about, not FCC measurements taken years ago. Which have changed.

But propagation physics has not changed. A given r-f power on a given MW frequency radiated over a given, short, groundwave path will produce the same field strength there now as it did 60+ years ago, when the data for the FCC propagation charts was first measured.

By all accounts I have read, you make a very good Part 15 AM antenna, Carl. But the design and operation of that antenna have to follow the laws of physics. Probably you'd agree that that the better those laws are understood, the more likely that the results will be satisfactory.
//

 

[radiopilot]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Mr. Fry, why do you keep quoting values for a 1/4 wave antenna???with 1000 watts or more???????what does this have to do with our subject matter? You have been doing this for years now.
I see no correlation to the subject at all.

Why are we confusing part fifteeners' with useless information.??????????????

Lets give them the tools to get on the air; tell them best how to do it without talking about commercial radio. Except for a tiny transmitter and antenna there is no comparrison in the real world.
C'mon buddy, I know you can do it.
Lets get really real and tell it like it really is.
No theory, no FCC numbers, no old tests.
Test it like it is today, and report on what you find.
OK????????????

I've had success doing what I do the way I build it cause I tested it again and again.
This is what works today.
Radio has changed, the airwaves are crowded and full of hash now.
Lets just tell it like it is, not the way it was yesterday, and this goes for everyone.
<It's my viewpoint; I don't care what you say, but lets just be realistic, ok?>

Carl...

I agree with you about 'REAL WORLD' observations and actual testing with the 'real' AM transmitters and grounds, elevations, etc. I know... I tried and tested to where I am now with my setup and am very happy with my results...

The point I wa making with the FCC site with the calculations is that if you put your transmitter om your roof (2 story house) with the ground lead going into the radials and it the total height is 30-35 feet to the tip of the 3 meter antenna this could be used in the program even if there are those with problems with the ground lead length, now the ground radials are a stretch for having 90' radials more or less and 90 radials total (within the means of some Part15 users) the program would then be satisfied with the inputs for power (it works with .0001 kw or 100mw ) I tried it already with different power levels... it would give you an approximate field strength... this myth that the percentage of efficiency of the antenna is false as the copper tube antenna is very efficient and if you use low ohm copper wire for the coil it is also efficient for our 100mw transmitter... where is 100mw being dissipated so quickly going up the 3 meter antenna?

Carl, you're doing a great service to the part15 community and I applaud you for doing so, keep up the good work and let us know more in detail of your friends setup...there is always room for improvement if the signal can be louder and clearer even if the distance of tranmitting is not needed... I would like my signal to be just as strong at 1.5 -2 miles as it is at 1/4 mile...

Thanks...

Radiopilot

 

[rfry]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

The point I wa making with the FCC site with the calculations is that if you put your transmitter om your roof (2 story house) with the ground lead going into the radials and it the total height is 30-35 feet to the tip of the 3 meter antenna this could be used in the program even if there are those with problems with the ground lead length...

The FCC program you linked to bases its answers on an antenna fed at the base, which means that the distribution of r-f current along the radiator will be different for the 33-foot height you used than on an elevated Part 15 with the top of its whip at 33 feet, and a long ground lead. The reason for that is that the Part 15 system is fed 3 meters from the top (at the bottom of the whip), and not at the bottom of the "ground wire." That fact means that the FCC program is not directly usable to analyze Part 15 AM antenna systems, which is why I took the approach I did when I used that program.

this myth that the percentage of efficiency of the antenna is false as the copper tube antenna is very efficient and if you use low ohm copper wire for the coil it is also efficient for our 100mw transmitter... where is 100mw being dissipated so quickly going up the 3 meter antenna?

The radiation resistance of the Part 15 AM 3-m whip or copper tube is not the same as its DC resistance. Radiation resistance is the resistance "seen" by the r-f power flowing on the antenna as a result of its radiation into space.

For these electrically short antennas, radiation resistance in ohms is approximately equal to H^2/312, where H is the electrical height of the antenna in degrees. A 3-meter conductor is about 5.83 degrees long at 1620 kHz, so the radiation resistance is about 0.1 ohm, as I posted earlier.

There is quite a bit of accurate information on these subjects on the Internet and in standard engineering textbooks that anybody can use to check/confirm my statements (and I hope you will).

Carl, you're doing a great service to the part15 community and I applaud you for doing so, keep up the good work ...

I agree.

///

 

[carlvenorden]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

My thanks to both Radio Pilot and Mr. Fry for the kudos.
Believe me, you two gents, on this forum have done a ton of good work posting your opinions and facts.
It lends a uniqueness.........yet lawful discussion to the board.

There is nothing efficient about the part 15 system......nothing.

All we are trying to do is make it the best it can be as far as the law allows.

And really, all the numbers are really great for people who understand them, but frankly, 99 out of 100 who read this board truly understand very technical information. Some of these numbers confuse me too....some of them.

I look at a AM antenna today as it exists in 2007's world. Look at the band. I don't have to go into it.

We can do the best we can and adhere to the standards accepted at this point.
We can improve them where we see improvements can be made. That is really about all we can do.

As far as making the part 15 antenna anybetter...........umm, I dunno. The challenge has been to keep all the wires close together without interfering with the parts thereof.
I've tried all the possibilites......unless I missed something, that is all there is to it.

So, for it's lossy values, and low voltage, etc, etc, it is still not too bad for what it is and what is accepted and lawful.
It is what it is guys.
But I loved your posts. Thanks so much.

 

[phatdaddy]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Back to the original thread for a minute, I have an idea for another really good stealth antenna that perhaps Carl or others might consider expanding on. There are still quite a few of those old "American Standard" type 3-leg TV towers laying around rusting away in back yards, junk yards, etc. Those towers came in 10 foot sections that bolted together to form the completed tower. What if we were to get a few of those old rusty 10 foot sections and wire brush, prime, and paint them with some non-contrasting color like flat black, dark green, brown, etc.

Next thing is to go to local supermarket and get a carton of long-necks of the readers choice. Must be glass bottles with small diameter tops, ie Little Kings, etc. In order to proceed, at least 3 of said beverages must be consumed. Be sure to save the bottles because they are now your tower base insulators!

Take a few pavers or patio blocks and place where you want the tower to set, insert aforementioned long necks into the open ends of the tower legs and stand the whole thing up vertically on the newly minted base insulators. Don't worry about securing the tower base, it's weight will keep it where you put it.

Locate some thin black "parachute cord" or equivalent to guy the tower section, then consume another beverage while considering the remainder of the project.

The next step would be to connect one of Carl's loading coils to the base of the tower and then apply the appropriate stealth technology. How about if we were to get some thick wall PVC pipe and paint to match the tower, maybe a four or 5 foot length.

Take newly painted PVC pine and mount it horizontally through the tower legs at a convenient height so that it sticks out 2 feet or so on each side of the tower. The final step would be to go down to Wally World and get a couple of hanging planters equipped with plants and suspend from our horizontal pipe.

Our Part-15 antenna just became a flower planter! All that remains is to install one of Carl's radial systems around the base and tune 'er up. This would probably be a perfect time to consume whatever beverages might remain from the previous steps.

 

[carlvenorden]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Well Phat, I'm not sure where you are going with that, but I'll give a quick hiccup after all those beverages, and say something I was told a long time ago, which could be interesting to part 15 readers interested in a pretty darn good ground system.

And this came from an engineer too.

This man was pondering ways to keep his ground system area damp. Since my particular ground system area was always damp, I really didn't give it much thought at the time, but we know wet areas propogate signal even better than dry areas. And this hint is even more valid in areas with sandy soil.

He suggested placing vermiculite (I suggested styrofoam, although they are very basically the same substance) into the radial trenches, basically wetting them well before covering them over.
It is a killer idea; and based on your resourses: vermiculite is expensive to buy, but packing styrofoam/peanuts are cheap if you have connections) hold water like a sponge.

It's a killer idea, and works very well to retain moisture around the ground system.

Just another little tip from the big part 15'er.

 

[phatdaddy]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Just trying to inject a little humor into the discussion. Sometimes a stealth antenna can work the best when it's right out in the open. Most people think of antennas as ugly and reducing property values, etc, etc, but often these very same people wouldn't give it a second look if it has flower pots or bird feeders hanging from it.

 

[radiopilot]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Another idea for concealment although a little costly would be to build a Gazebo in your backyard and run radials across the roof prior to installing the roof tiles, and in the center of the gazebo you run a flag pole with the 3 meter antenna inside.

Who would think it's really a transmitter site, not only that but you could also install solar panels on that same roof to power the transmitter and any other accessories for the transmitter.. so in essence you have an elevated ground much better than any ground system and you could just run a ground wire into the ground to remove any lightning hazard...

Any kinks in that idea?

Radiopilot

 

[Black_Shire]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Another idea for concealment although a little costly would be to build a Gazebo in your backyard and run radials across the roof prior to installing the roof tiles, and in the center of the gazebo you run a flag pole with the 3 meter antenna inside.

Who would think it's really a transmitter site, not only that but you could also install solar panels on that same roof to power the transmitter and any other accessories for the transmitter.. so in essence you have an elevated ground much better than any ground system and you could just run a ground wire into the ground to remove any lightning hazard...

Any kinks in that idea?

Radiopilot

That's an excellent idea! I'd go with a copper-roofed gazebo, bond the roof panels together, and install a tapped (for impedance matching to the transmitter) variometer-type loading coil inside a decorative cylinder at the roof peak, which would be topped by a PVC flagpole housing the 3 meter antenna. The variometer could be tuned from ground level inside the gazebo via two pull ropes (similar to those used on venetian blinds).

To "legitimize" the pull ropes and conceal their true function, they could also be connected to a vent louver in the gazebo celing "to allow air flow, to keep condensation from forming inside the copper roof so it won't corrode inside." (Good cross-ventilation in concert with side vents would also maintain a more comfortable temperature range for the transmitter up there.)

The bottom end of the variometer coil would be connected to the copper roof, which would in turn be connected to ground by either copper straps or heavy copper grounding braids running down inside the gazebo roof support columns to 8' ground rods. The variometer would provide a DC path to ground for static charges on the antenna.

I might even run additional buried bare copper wire radials out from the ground rods, and I would maintain a well-watered flower garden (moistened by irrigation drip tubing) around the gazebo.


-- Black Shire

 

[radiopilot]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Another idea for concealment although a little costly would be to build a Gazebo in your backyard and run radials across the roof prior to installing the roof tiles, and in the center of the gazebo you run a flag pole with the 3 meter antenna inside.

Who would think it's really a transmitter site, not only that but you could also install solar panels on that same roof to power the transmitter and any other accessories for the transmitter.. so in essence you have an elevated ground much better than any ground system and you could just run a ground wire into the ground to remove any lightning hazard...

Any kinks in that idea?

Radiopilot

That's an excellent idea!  I'd go with a copper-roofed gazebo, bond the roof panels together, and install a tapped (for impedance matching to the transmitter) variometer-type loading coil inside a decorative cylinder at the roof peak, which would be topped by a PVC flagpole housing the 3 meter antenna.  The variometer could be tuned from ground level inside the gazebo via two pull ropes (similar to those used on venetian blinds).

To "legitimize" the pull ropes and conceal their true function, they could also be connected to a vent louver in the gazebo celing "to allow air flow, to keep condensation from forming inside the copper roof so it won't corrode inside."  (Good cross-ventilation in concert with side vents would also maintain a more comfortable temperature range for the transmitter up there.)

The bottom end of the variometer coil would be connected to the copper roof, which would in turn be connected to ground by either copper straps or heavy copper grounding braids running down inside the gazebo roof support columns to 8' ground rods.  The variometer would provide a DC path to ground for static charges on the antenna.

I might even run additional buried bare copper wire radials out from the ground rods, and I would maintain a well-watered flower garden (moistened by irrigation drip tubing) around the gazebo.


--  Black Shire

Some gazebo roofs are aluminum, although I'm not sure it's the best material for the ground... There you have it... Between Black Shire and myself we just created a new company providing dual function Gazebo-Part15 transmitter site built at your site. 

Good job...

Radiopilot

 

[Neil E.]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Hello all,

The posts above present some really clever ideas for a stealth antenna and I think that is great. In order to add to the good or the order, I am putting up a post I made on another board. Make of it what you will.

Quoting myself:

Sorry to hear of the problems with the HOA. I am VP and Chairman of our HOA Design and Review Committee and can't imagine us doing anything that restrictive. It could be because we have only 69 homes here and we all know most of the residents.

Just some advice, be proactive and contact the HOA and get an OK before you do things. It will help to have sketches of where you intend to place things and you might also get a zoning clearance from the city to take with you. Then your investment is protected from ninnys who might not like it. After all, if you go ahead on your own you will be at the HOA eventually if anyone complains and it may not sit very well with them that you ignored the covenants and procedures.

Also, I believe and you could check on it, that antennas intended for TV reception are exempt by law from HOAs. This would be a stretch for a copper pipe but in desperation one needs to be creative.

Neil

Believe it or not that is how our HOA operates and we are not evil demons.

Neil

 

[carlvenorden]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Oh, be very careful of that idea to house an antenna in a pvc pipe.
I too lived in a very restrictive area when I did all the work to develop that sstran antenna.
The PVC will not allow our signal out; it is provides too much insulation. My idea at the time, too, was to make it look like a flagpole.

Folks, this will not work. tried and tried again.
Great idea, and I thought so at the time, but ........it didn't work.
Carl

 

[Black_Shire]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Oh, be very careful of that idea to house an antenna in a pvc pipe.
I too lived in a very restrictive area when I did all the work to develop that sstran antenna.
The PVC will not allow our signal out; it is provides too much insulation. My idea at the time, too, was to make it look like a flagpole.

Folks, this will not work. tried and tried again.
Great idea, and I thought so at the time, but ........it didn't work.
Carl

It depends on what kind of PVC pipe you use. White Schedule 40 PVC tubing is low-loss and very RF-transparent (that's also why it makes good low-loss loading coil forms), black PVC tubing is very lossy, and grey PVC is in between the other two in terms of RF lossiness.


-- Black Shire

 

[radiopilot]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Oh, be very careful of that idea to house an antenna in a pvc pipe.
I too lived in a very restrictive area when I did all the work to develop that sstran antenna.
The PVC will not allow our signal out; it is provides too much insulation. My idea at the time, too, was to make it look like a flagpole.

Folks, this will not work. tried and tried again.
Great idea, and I thought so at the time, but ........it didn't work.
Carl

Why can't the flagpole be the copper antenna? Just paint it with whatever color.. not to mention a 2" dia copper tube antenna is much better than 1/2" or 3/4" copper tube in terms of radiation for these 100mw transmitters...

Like Black Shire has mentioned white PVC is the best in terms of low loss... but with our measily low wattge transmitters we don't even want a mw to be lost... so I'd say skip the pvc altogether and use some type of metal flagpole copper being the best...

Radiopilot



It depends on what kind of PVC pipe you use. White Schedule 40 PVC tubing is low-loss and very RF-transparent (that's also why it makes good low-loss loading coil forms), black PVC tubing is very lossy, and grey PVC is in between the other two in terms of RF lossiness.


-- Black Shire

 

[phatdaddy]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Antenna diameter was one reason why I came up with the idea of using a 10 foot TV tower section. Those old American Standard towers had about an 8 inch face and would in effect become an 8 inch diameter vertical radiator. Another possibility might be to get a small aluminum flagpole (10 feet high of course ) and then fit a white pvc pipe sleeve with end-cap over the base end. If that sleeve were then set into a concrete pad base, you would end up with an insulated 10 foot flagpole antenna. Discreet installation of a decent radial system around the flagpole should then give decent results for Part-15 operation.

 

[radiopilot]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Antenna diameter was one reason why I came up with the idea of using a 10 foot TV tower section. Those old American Standard towers had about an 8 inch face and would in effect become an 8 inch diameter vertical radiator. Another possibility might be to get a small aluminum flagpole (10 feet high of course ) and then fit a white pvc pipe sleeve with end-cap over the base end. If that sleeve were then set into a concrete pad base, you would end up with an insulated 10 foot flagpole antenna. Discreet installation of a decent radial system around the flagpole should then give decent results for Part-15 operation.

These are all good ideas.. I'm sure with alot of ingenuity there are many radiators that could be used if they were in the proper setting... unfortunately unless it's the proper 3 meter height or close to it, and the lowest resistance one has to be creative... would a flat copper sheet say 4 inches wide by 3 meters tall nailed to a 2 x 4 work as an antenna, though I like the round copper tube for aesthetics, I've never tried it but why wouldn't it work?

My last residence had an HOA and I'm glad my new house does not have one... although my last HOA was not hard to work with and allowed antennas for TV/FM and Satelite.. it was easy to get my transmitter working... but I wound up leaving alot of copper buried in the ground 4 inches deep when I sold the house, though the new owner knows about it.


Radiopilot

 

[phatdaddy]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

Any conductive material can be made to function as an antenna. You could nail copper strap to a 2X4 and make a useful antenna out of it. I would recommend that the 2X4 be well seasoned (totally dried out) and then painted with a couple coats of varnish to keep it from drawing moisture as this would greatly lower the Q of the antenna.

 

[carlvenorden]

Re: My sstran/ramsey ground system works "Excellently" with the Rangemaster"!!

You could do all that, and it is worthy as an experiment, but it is flirting with disaster.
As for using lossy PVC, good idea. But the power in my opinion wouldn't penetrate and give you a usuable signal.

The metal flagpole idea is something I almost did.......but I moved before I got to do it.

There are a couple stations that actually use these on air!///one of them is 1430am out of Newark NJ.......I think they have since been replaced but for 30 or 40 years their antennas were basically very high flagpoles. It works but it is hellbent to tune, and this installation was a 2 tower DA. Tricky.

I think the flagpole idea is killer.....always did.
Amd what have you to hide?
If you live in a POA, and are allowed a flagpole, nothing is up, except you may have to put a box around the bottom, put your tx in it, and plant flowers along the top of it (that is what I planned to do).
If you do it, let us know the results............it is one experiment I never got to attempt.
Carl