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national dutch broadcastprocessing day

D

dutch pirate radio

Guest
Hi all,

first of all a little back ground info on the next item:
In the Netherlands, especially in the german border area (district called twente), it's quite a tradition to make illegal FM broadcasts with a large group of people and building a big party around it.
The format used is the traditional dutch folk music with sometimes a real american polka (frank novak, lynn marie etc...).
The motivation of these illegal events are nothing more ore less then building a party were everyone is invited(except the police offcourse ;D ).

As this "hobby" grew and went closer and closer to the proffesional edge, and ERP's were brought up tot easily 100kW, the "pirate's" had to invest in a thing called "soundprocessing" to keep the big signal in between the lines(bandwidth) so that they don't "push" the illegal stations around their transmitting frequency away in there territory.

Most pirates are a non profit "sociëty" club, so they aren't bounded on things a "investor" ore gouvernment determines.

for a impression of pirates in the netherlands look at www.klompenboer.nl under "impressies".


10 December 2006 will be the day that a couple of illegal (pirate radio) FM broadcast stations from the Netherlands, come together to meassure a big diversity of FM broadcast procesors.

Never were there so many different processors in one place at the same time to compete next to eachother.
the soundengineers try to make a reliable and objective report on what they observe and find.

the list shows things like:

-software processing (optiloud, waves, omnia A/X etc...)
-low budget equipment like the Behringer ultradyne 9024 with a suitable stereo encoder
-the behringer combinator (still used and beloved in europe)
-aphex airchain (compellor 320A, aural exciter 250 type 3, dominator 722, digicoder)
-AEV mirage FM
-Warsanis 1401mk2
-TC electronics DBmax
-the entire Broadcastwarehouse DSP range (dsp mini, dsp x, dspxtra)
-the inovonics 250FM
-Orban 8100A
-Orban 2200D
-Omnia 3FM Turbo
-Orban 8100A + XT2
-Omnia FM HOT/SPACE
-Orban 8200
-Orban 8300
-Omnia FM Veris (the 4 band omnia 6FM)
-Omnia 6FM HD/EXI

and many other processors from around 100 euro, way up to 15000 euro.
of machines like the TC finalizer are often hooked up to the broadcastprocessor, to make some more loudness of banddefinition. of course we will measure the effect of a pre processor before the real broadcast processor. remember: this is all "hobby"!

we'll measure:
loudness
soundkwality
latency
THD / noise
colouring and effect
bandwith
distortion
etc...

for measuring we have a HP spectrum analyser, a inovonics broadcast analyser, a RTW loudness meter and a tone generator.

every processor will be "benchmarked" with a musicmix from approx. 5 minutes with several music formats. The recordings will be set on different "pirate related" internet sites so everyone can get a good impression of how a processor can sound.

we'll hope to bring some usefull information!

best regards,


the broadcastprocessing freaks from the Netherlands.
 
well, first of all it sounds like you guys have way too much time on your hands.1oo kw pirates??good thing you are in the Netherlands.but one thing to remember ,it's the ENTIRE air chain that effects processing.but with that being said ,my money is on the omnia 6ex,the dsp-extra and the orban 8300..wish i could join you,been around processing since the 60's, seen lots of boxes.sounds like you will have a fun day.
 
there you go amfmsw, are we showing our age or what??ha. remember the days of the dap on AM radio.on my first install, i'm telling you the radio about jumped off the lab table.you should have seen the owners face.i said is this good enough for you.you'd thought we had a secret weapon, which i must admit there were a few black boxes back in those days.
 
Go to the following link to get a good impression of what's been going on here in the netherlands ;)

http://www.klompenboer.nl/Piraten/Klompenboer/KKA/KKA Index.htm

on the klompenboer site there are many impressions of several pirate stations (approx. 2000 in eastern netherlands).



as a surprise we'll have a couple of real "flagship" processors on the backhand, a couple of recommend engineers will give a demo with these machines... ;D

it's not a question of having to much time, it's more te question: "when does a hobby stop"? 8)
 
This is a noble undertaking, and I wish you good luck.

Be aware that the best judgement of audio processing is done with the ears, not test test equipment. Audio processors are dynamic devices, and as such, their behavior will vary based upon signal content. Many static state signals may yield test data that appears poor, but the sonic performance with dynamic material (music) will be very good. This is why most testing of audio processors that try to illustrate THD, IMD, or other lab results, usually do not illustrate what the device is actually doing. Most broadcast audio processors employ RMS and peak responding functions. Sometimes, they will rely on a mixture of those two methods, along with a dependency of whether the signal is stereo or mono. Any of these anomolies could further cloud a static, or bench test.

Unless a full understanding is made of the internal workings of the device or algorithms involved, incorrect data can result. Also, testing methodology is extremely critical when embarking upon an exercise of this nature.

There are some tests that are relevant. Bandwidth measurements, peak control, or where the system headroom limit is, are valid. I'd recommend that when making peak level measurements, that a scope be used, as it will always offer a better observation, that any modulation measurement device. I'm not taking anything away from the modulation measuring equipment that is available, but the best method of monitoring and measuring peak control ability is with a scope.

I offer these observations, as it is always very tempting to put these dynamic beasts under lab type scrutiny. I'm not saying that you should not do these tests, but am strongly recommending that you base opinions on how a device sounds. It would make sense to perform all subjective listening first, then run the bench tests. This will elimnate false results that one might make based upon trying to correlate a static test result, with what is perceived when listening to a device.

-Frank Foti
 
@Frank
Amen.

Truth.

I once started the journey of finding the best processing tool suiting my requirements. This is really hard. Even a beast of a processor can have bad 19khz rejection or a mediocre sonic porforming processor can have superior 19khz rejection. Technically spoken, the first processor would have suit a techy's heart and soul. Listening for many many hours ( especially by others ) will lead to a conclusion which is oposite to your techy choice. i was quite new into soundprocessing ( 4 years experience ), but that doesn't mean anything, since your opinion can be wiped away by any critical listener.Anyway , I found myself placed in a position to chose between such processors, a choice based on technical specs and sonic performance.I have chosen an old fashioned device above some new age technical wonders.
The old fashioned device ( i won't put company names anymore since i got killed for giving my opinion before , which is a matter of free speech, but i won't ), has inferior technical specs, but the sonical experience is according to my opinion superior.
Tech specs say something about technical performance, sonic experience can't be judged by one single person. Simple as it is.
You need an massive audience to judge this. Plain and simple.

About Dutch pirates.. oldiesstation
well, first of all it sounds like you guys have way too much time on your hands.1oo kw pirates?
Click to expand...
What about free speech and opinion? Our northern collegues are fighting agains any covernmental issues concerning the herrasments of free speech and opinion. My respect for this. Some of these "pirates" ( using better equipment then some commercial broadcasters ) deserve respect for this. The dutch "FCC" killed loads of pirate radio stations in the south and the west part of the Netherlands, but they cannot kill it in the northern and the eastern part. they are patriotic, and this should be stimulated to stimulate free speach and opinions.
They do so, even with 11 KW electrical power ( EIRP of over 100 KW ) for a pirate radio station deserves respect. Fines go up to 50K euros out here. But freedom of speech is according to them worth it. And i agree.

The rule of consideration for pessimists is:
"We judge from the safety of our living room chair" fish, marillion.

The reason why people brake rules:
" Once men declare soo many rules that it becomes impossible to live without breaking one" Ayn rand. ;-)

Dutch pirates deserve respect, they use advanced technologies. But it's not about that. it's a matter of doing it. Not doing it is soo easy, doing the opposite isn't. So, don't judge from the safety of your living room chair..


Regards

Evert
 
They do plan to run music thru it.

Frank is right, processors mask alot of distortion you would see/hear when running tones thru a box. How it comes together with complex waveforms is another thing.

All these boxes in one place 8)
 
First of all Evert, i not in my living room chair.i am in my state of the art production studio.number 2 i am not judging anyone.The remark was simply made in jest.But the laws regulating broadcast transmissions are different here.If they are breaking the law,they should be held accountable, no matter where the signal is being broadcast.so lighten up on the poppy seeds (do yall eat or smoke those things)and do your processor evaluations.we all know you're stuck on the dinosaur 8200.maybe it's YOUR ears that need a real good checking out.NOTHING beats a great set of ears when it comes to processing.that and a dam good scope.IMHO
 
Can't we all just get along? Honestly I think it's a pretty cool thing... a hell of alot more interesting than most of what goes on in today's terrestrial commercial radio in the US. I think there should be an annual "engineering free-for-all day" to allow us engineering types to actually do something-- other than submit to the ubiquitous PD's whim.

-A
 
@Oldiestation

My dinosaur runs perfectly for me. I don't run CHR, that may be the difference. I'm not stuck with anything, it's a choice.
Anyway it was not my intention to piss you off. If i did, sorry.
About Holland and poppy seeds , if you don't know where you are talking about, don't judge.

Anyway, let's keep the discussion right. Sorry if i upset you.


Evert
 
Sorry for some of my remarks.But i have to ask, what is going on over in Holland where you need pirate stations to express your views.??what ever it is, it sure is kept quiet.my newphew's wife is from Holland, a computer eng ,very bright and just a lovely person and talks very highly of her country.But anyway let's get back to the topic and you guys have all the fun you can and i agree with Alan ,we can all get along.
 
o.s.
yeah, maybe I'm showing my age...and signs of wear. I think the reason they have such a "station" is because their government had better stewardship of the radio bands.

They use Eureka 147 instead of chewing up their Standard band with hash, they don't have Docket 80-90 move ins and hundreds of LPFM's nearly all with first and second adjacency problems. The whole US commercial bands seem to just drip all over each other.

HOWEVER, the result of limited licences is the need for more outlets to have a voice, resulting in "pirates".
 
thanks for that input.more clear to me now.hey i wish we could go.now that would be fun.you bring the cbs units and i;ll search around for the old urei units.you know sometimes it's hard to let analog go...take care
 
first of all, i don't think that anyone on this forum knows the real reason why the pirates in the netherlands " do what they do" the pirates in the west of holland had there political reasons(for about 30 years ago), in the eastern part (near the german border)pirates are just doing their " thing" because it's sort of less a tradition.
it's not about political statements, ore difficult issue's!!!
it's just about making a big party with dutch music(which the dutch public and commercial radiostations don't play a lot) and a bottle of good cold beer.

i guess oldiesstation does show his age talking in a real conservative way.
you have the right to think what you want and make statements about that, but i agree with evert on this one!
not everyone in the netherlands is smoking weed and walks on wooden shoes. and we even don't have people called " Hans" who stick their thumb in to a dijk... if you think that's the way you must " see" the netherlands, i think we should invite people like you to a big pirate party! i'll promise you that you have on hell of a party! ;)

on topic:
we have some very good studio monitors to listen to the different processors, and indeed that will be the most important part of the test!
may i notice that it's not a day to " choos" the best processor ore to have a contest, it's also a day to make new contacts with people who have te same hobby ore to meet people who you haven't seen for a while.
 
now with that last post ,a major market morning man like me could have a field day, but enough said..It really does sound like a party and in my hometown New Orleans, believe me we know how to party.Let the good times roll and have fun.
 
well,

Here's the eventual contestlist with all the devices that'll be available during the "test"
Take notice to the fact that audible performance weighs muchs heaviër than the "measurements" on the spectrum analyser.

- Behringer Ultradyne 9024, Behringer Ultramizer, Harris MSP90
- Valley people leveler, Behringer Dualfex, Behringer mastercom
- Behringer mdx8000, Behringer Ultrafex, Behringer Edison
- Symetrix 422, AEV mirage FM
- Aphex airchain (320A, 250, 722)
- Aphex compellor, Q-mod
- Warsanis 1401 mk2
- BW dspmini
- Aphex compellor 320A, DSP mini
- Inovonics 250FM, DSP mini
- MSC stereomaxx, aphex 250, inovonics 250, inovonics 716
- Orban 2200D
- Orban 8100A
- Omnia FM HOT/EFX
- Omnia 3FMturbo, TC finalizer 96K
- BW DSPX
- Orban 8200, CRL audio signature, Orban4000A, MSCCP803
- Omnia Veris/Space, TC dBmax
- Orban 5300
- DSPxtra
- Orban 8300
- Orban 8100A + XT2 chassis (card "zero")
- Omnia 6FM exi
- Orban 8500

measurements and audio fragments from each processer will be available shortly after 10 December.
 
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