Need Recommendation for Starter Mic and Pre-Amp

[thatradioguy]

Hey All,

Just wondering what you would recommend for a 19 year old looking to do more professional production?

Currently, I'm using a Shure SM-58, hooked into a DJ Mixer, output from RCA converted into 1/8 jack to computer... I've been happy with what I've been able to do up until now (dealing with noise floor level of around -56db, and then processing that out using Audition 1.5/2.0).

However, I've reached that point to where I want a more professional sound (Something even Waves plug-ins cannot achieve without proper hardware).

Hoping you could give some insight on a cheap starter mic and vocal processor? I'm not doing heavy enough production to where I can just go and buy an outrageous GREAT product... it's more or less a hobby kind-of thing to do when I'm not working at the station (yes, I'm an obsessed radio geek).

So far, the Audio-Technica AT2020, has a reasonable price of $99.99, and the general recommendation for a vocal processor has been the DBX 286A.

What would you say about these products from your experience?

Also, if I do end up purchasing a processor, would I be able to take the output from the processor and still be able to hook it into my mixer which also applies the 48v phantom power? Or would I need to have an entirely different route to my computer (using an Audigy 4 Pro)?

Thanks for any info you can supply.

 

[Emmett1057]

Why do you need the mixer? I would bypass it altogether. If it's not a high-end board, there's a good chance of adding noise. DJ mixers are notoriously shoddy for any type of studio setting.

If you do need the mixer, take the line-out of your 286A and run it to a line-in on your mixer...DO NOT run it into the mixer preamp, unless you enjoy the sound of crap.

Have you thought about dumping the Audigy for a proper recording card? There would be some benefit to that. Something like the M-Audio Audiophile 2496, E-mu 0404 or Echo MiaMIDI would give you a real benefit over any consumer card. All of those are around $100 or slightly more. If you were using an on-baord soundchip, I would insist that is was the most important upgrade, but the Audigy should get you by until you can afford to replace it.

The products you have in mind are very good. I would recommend both of them. If you can stand it, put a little more into your mic. The Studio Projects C1 is the best "budget" condenser I've heard. If you look around, you can find one for $200. At the $100 mark, the AT2020 is probably going to be your best bet. That or the Shure SM57.

Unless you want to spend considerably more, the 286A is hard to beat. The processing is good enough that, if you like, you can later spend some cash on a better preamp and continue to use the 286A for processing.

How is your room treatment? If you don't have something soft on the walls, a condenser may sound worse than your SM58. Your noise floor may actually go up, so be prepared to deal with that.

Hope that gives you some direction!

Emmett

 

[thatradioguy]

Thanks Emmett, I'll keep looking and reading around. I'm mainly just gathering information so I can apply it for future reference.

Thanks again.

 

[menotti1]

i hear the C1 is a very serious competitor to the High price TLM103.

 

[Radioman40]

I've been using the AT2020. Best $99 I've spent! Great Condensor mic. Of course don't forget you've got to use Phantom power to run it.

 

[bobbybooey]

OK, realllllyyyyy stupid, basic question... what exactly is a 'condenser' mic, and how does it differ from other types?

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Bobbyboey asked: "what exactly is a 'condenser' mic, and how does it differ from other types?"

Other types pretty well all fall into the category of DYNAMIC. The sound striking the microphone element actually ends up generating a small amound of electricity... and doing it at a level and "impedance" that can actually feed into equipment (a pre-amp) at a useable level. The parts of a dynamic mic that receive the sound and through motion generate electricity have to have some mass and these parts may not move fast enough to really keep up with the daintiest part of the sound wave that gives it distinctiveness.

The condenser mic, sometimes called an electret mic has daintier, more fragile parts. They don't so much generate an electrical signal as they stir up the electrical field that exists because voltage is supplied to the mic from the outside (or from an internal battery.) Since the parts that makeup a condenser mic are lighter, more fragile, more dainty if you please, they can more closely follow the intricate details of the sound that moves them. But to be useable, the fragile, dainty little sound needs immediate amplification before it travels anywhere... even the 10 feet or so to you pre-amp.

If you will look at your own mixer, or some mixers in the store, you will see markings about Phantom Power. For day to day useage, the most obvious thing about a condensor mic is that it expects to see Phantom Power coming down the same wires it is prepared to send sound up to your preamp on.

Invisible to you is the fact there is a steady voltage present in the mic (from the phantom power) and there is a small amplifier in there.

There are high quality dynamic mics that will outperform the low end condensor mics. Virtually all the mics you see in a studio, the ones you see on the photo on the CD with little elastic shoestrings shock suspension and a pop filter screen in front of it are condensor mics.

Our perception is that they simply suck more sounds out of the air than your dynamic mic can hear.

This explanation is full of holes that some of our technical friends may want to correct, the I think you should understand the concept of what people expect from their condensor mic.

P. S. There are low end condensor mics that are not high quality. All those "computer mics" that you see for $8 to $20 expect the computer to send voltage to them so they can filter sound out of the air and back down the line to your sound card.

 

[Emmett1057]

I'll only make one correction. All electrets are condensers, but not all condnsers are electrets. They are polarized in different ways. Electrets (also called electrostatic microphones) use a back plate charge for polarization. Until recently, electrets were much cheaper to produce and generally, we not as high quality. In time, the back-plate loses its chage, which means the sound of an electret changes over time, and it isn't a good change. Even high quality electrets will lose this charge, though a well-built electret can survive for many years. The other type is externally biased, also called "true condenser" design. Until recently, electrets were lower quality and true condensers were more expensive. Now, true condensers can be made much less expensively and electrets can be built to a higher standard. There are a couple of classic electrets that are still around, including the AKG C3000 and Audio-Technica AT4033. And more recently, Violet Designs has been building high quality electret mics. But true condensers are usually a better choice (IMO) because of their lifetime of consistency. All of those wonderful vintage condensers would be true condenser design. And of course, condensers can further be broken down into tube or SS, transucer design, etc.

Another type not mentioned is the ribbon mic, which has a ribbon element, rather than a traditional diaphragm. It behaves similarly (though produces different results) to a dynamic. Ribbon mic have figure-8 patterns and can handle extremely high SPL levels, however, they can handle virtually no abuse. They sound very smooth, but cannot withstand any roughness.

As for dynamics, the most commonly seen in a radio studio would be the ElectroVoice RE20 & RE27, Sennheiser MD 421 and Shure SM5 and SM7. Standards like the Neumann U87 & TLM103, Sennheiser MKH-416 and AKG C-414 are all condensers.

Emmett

 

[jefflaurence]

And as a small addition to Emmet's explaination..NEVER plug a ribbon mic into an input that is providing 48V phantom power....

..like if you were to plug in a very expensive and collectable RCA 77DX into a mixer without checking to be sure the phantom current is off...

..like I did...

..once

..and only once

 

[bobbybooey]

Thanks for the tutorial, gents!

 

[Emmett1057]

And as a small addition to Emmet's explaination..NEVER plug a ribbon mic into an input that is providing 48V phantom power....

..like if you were to plug in a very expensive and collectable RCA 77DX into a mixer without checking to be sure the phantom current is off...

..like I did...

..once

..and only once

Ouch.

 

[marketweis]

Has anyone here tried one of those USB Mics, which run around $100-$150?

The makers talk about how there's no need for a pre-amp. Just plug in and start voicing.

I've actually heard a few product demos online which sound pretty good, but haven't really heard from anybody with real world experience with these things.

I'm skeptical.

 

[calguy]

Has anyone here tried one of those USB Mics, which run around $100-$150?

The makers talk about how there's no need for a pre-amp. Just plug in and start voicing.

I've actually heard a few product demos online which sound pretty good, but haven't really heard from anybody with real world experience with these things.

I'm skeptical.

I have the Rode Podcaster. It’s a beautifully made mic that resembles a white EV RE 20. I'm a little underwhelmed with performance though. To me it's a little thin and the gain is on the low side. Gain can be fixed by normalizing your track, but it really needs a processor.

 

[Chuck]

Has anyone here tried one of those USB Mics, which run around $100-$150?

The makers talk about how there's no need for a pre-amp. Just plug in and start voicing.

I've actually heard a few product demos online which sound pretty good, but haven't really heard from anybody with real world experience with these things.

I'm skeptical.

I have one of the $59.95 Samson handheld mics. To be honest, I wasn't expecting much, and I haven't been disappointed. At least for my voice, it needs an accessory foam windscreen, and it has an unusual but not unpleasant tonality. For serious production work, you'd be better off with a $100 MXL or Behringer condenser and an outboard USB pre-amp and sound card. BUT, you can't beat it for convenience. It is easy to carry around with your laptop computer, and it even comes with a collapsible tripod desk stand and a fairly long cord. It beats lugging a bunch of "stuff" around.

You may not want to use it for "network quality" production work, but as a reporter's tool, it is more than adequate. It is great for interviews and quick non-critical applications like remotes. It actually sounds OK on the air. In my case, I can record something from wherever I am, save it as an MP3 file, email it back to the station with a EVDO wireless Internet card from our cell phone company, and by using a program like "Go To My PC" I can insert the piece into our automation sequence to play as the next event. That's pretty handy.

I'd be curious to hear how some of the 1" USB condenser mics sound. I suspect that we may see even more of them.

 

[SirRoxalot]

USB Option

You might want to check out Jeff Laurence's post here about the MXL large-diaphragm condenser USB mics. The MXL USB-006 is around $125.00 on-line. There are several in the USB series.

Check them out here.

 

[Emmett1057]

I'm actually extremely impressed with the MXL USB condensers. To my ears, they sound considerably better than any of the other companies producing USB mics. I think they sound every bit as good as a regular MXL condenser paired with a typical preamp and inexpensive soundcard. It's not a great sound, but considering that you get to bypass the soundcard and preamp, they sound pretty damn good. Neumann makes a very expensive model with the A/D converter built-in...So I think you'll see converter quality improve, and therefore, USB (or FireWire) mics could easily be the way of the future. On the other hand, if you're like me, you enjoy blending the colors of the preamp with the tonal quality of the mics...So I don't see traditional microphones becoming obsolete any time soon.

Emmett

 

[marketweis]

Wouldn't you think that something like the MXL USB mic would be good enough for things like web-related projects (podcast intros/virutal tour narration, etc.)? Still producing a pretty darn good sound, yet not neccessarily studio quality? That's really all I want the mic to be able to do in that regard, since I have a professional studio I use at my radio station for producing the stuff for air that really NEEDS to sound fantastic.

 

[surfdude]

The Samson USB mic C03U (not the C01U) sounds excellent. Full bodied and clean,
no harsh high end. I bought it for on the road with a laptop.

I think it sounds superior to a cheap condenser
mic, low end preamp, and basic soundcard.

I have quality, mid priced gear and I was shocked at the how good it sounds.

 

[marketweis]

surfdude-

Do you have any kind of special sound card in the laptop or just a consumer-grade?
I'm torn between going with a regular xlr connector mic into a usb pre-amp, or just going with a usb mic.

 

[Emmett1057]

Wouldn't you think that something like the MXL USB mic would be good enough for things like web-related projects (podcast intros/virutal tour narration, etc.)? Still producing a pretty darn good sound, yet not neccessarily studio quality? That's really all I want the mic to be able to do in that regard, since I have a professional studio I use at my radio station for producing the stuff for air that really NEEDS to sound fantastic.

Yes, most likely it would do a fine job for those things. It will still need some "in the box" processing, but that's not too hard to do. I definately prefer the sound of the MXL to the sound of the Samson, R0DE or even the BLUE. I'm not sure what MXL did differently, but whatever it was, it worked...They got it right. Even so, I don't think any of them are a replacement to the "old" way of having a quality mic, preamp and interface. But who knows what the future will hold?

Emmett