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new car HD complaints.

and the typical garbage solutions uninformed people (car dealers) give.

"I just bought the new '12 Prius c. I paid extra to get the navigation system, which comes with HD and satellite radio....whatever that is. I only paid for all this "stuff" because they were all sold out of the basic models. I can't listen to a single radio station without hearing echoes and the sound coming in and out. It's awful! Some stations are way worse than others. I took it to toyota and told them I'm sure the speakers were going out. They diagnosed it and even listened themselves and said my system was fine and that it's something about the radio stations still haven't upgraded from analog yet. "

"There is no way I can take this HD satellite radio crap out of my car. It's so annoying that I spent all this money to have this and yet I hate it."

read more at:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120625185733AAwguKE
 
KB1OKL said:
and the typical garbage solutions uninformed people (car dealers) give.

"I just bought the new '12 Prius c. I paid extra to get the navigation system, which comes with HD and satellite radio....whatever that is. I only paid for all this "stuff" because they were all sold out of the basic models. I can't listen to a single radio station without hearing echoes and the sound coming in and out. It's awful! Some stations are way worse than others. I took it to toyota and told them I'm sure the speakers were going out. They diagnosed it and even listened themselves and said my system was fine and that it's something about the radio stations still haven't upgraded from analog yet. "

"There is no way I can take this HD satellite radio crap out of my car. It's so annoying that I spent all this money to have this and yet I hate it."

read more at:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120625185733AAwguKE

HD radio is the problem. It sounds like you are dropping in and out of HD lock. If you can find a way to force analog reception instead of HD, the problem will be alleviated to some extent. The rest of the problem is that FM requires a proper antenna, and cars no longer come with one. If you can find an aftermarket whip antenna, and have somebody install it, your FM reception will be much better, and it may even help HD reception to the point it is acceptable.
 
New pinnacle of car dealer lying: The dealer told him there was nothing wrong with his radio it's just that many radio stations haven't upgraded yet :D. Most be one of ibiquities new talking points. Tell them it's the radio station's fault for staying in the dark ages, demand they upgrade!
 
The problem is with perfect IBOC reception when the radio switches from analog FM to digital multicast FM and the audio quality decreases. It doesn't matter if it offers more stations when the station you want doesn't sound as good as analog.

Put all your bits into one stream and HD may have a point. :)

As for AM I've not yet heard AM-HD without the annoying hashing SBR brings nor one that sounds like commercial FM analog. Nor one that doesn't make me :mad:!
 
ajc_trw said:
The problem is with perfect IBOC reception when the radio switches from analog FM to digital multicast FM and the audio quality decreases.

It sounds more like HD stations that don't have the analog and digital in sync...as if manpower-strapped engineering departments, if they even exist, don't have enough to do already.
 
KB1OKL said:
New pinnacle of car dealer lying: The dealer told him there was nothing wrong with his radio it's just that many radio stations haven't upgraded yet :D. Most be one of ibiquities new talking points. Tell them it's the radio station's fault for staying in the dark ages, demand they upgrade!

But it's true. Get a station with adequate digital power and in sync and it shouldn't kick in and out so much, or at all unless you're in a fringe area.

So I would say the dealer is right - the local radio stations are the problem.
 
Zach said:
KB1OKL said:
New pinnacle of car dealer lying: The dealer told him there was nothing wrong with his radio it's just that many radio stations haven't upgraded yet :D. Most be one of ibiquities new talking points. Tell them it's the radio station's fault for staying in the dark ages, demand they upgrade!

But it's true. Get a station with adequate digital power and in sync and it shouldn't kick in and out so much, or at all unless you're in a fringe area.

So I would say the dealer is right - the local radio stations are the problem.

The dealer was telling the customer that it was the analog radio stations that were at fault...because they hadn't "upgraded". The truth of the matter is that the customers are getting lousy HD reception which is the norm and is why these car HD receivers are going to be a big boondoggle for these companies soon. There's nothing wrong with the radios other than they use a half baked modulation scheme, and there's certainly nothing wrong with the analog stations except in ibiquities eyes.
 
Returning to reality for a moment, lousy Ibiquity reception is only "the norm" if the aerial AND/OR receiver is/are subpar. I can't imagine how the little "stubby" aerials they seem to be gluing to the roofs of cars these days, for whatever contrived reason or other, are even acceptible for adequate analogue reception let alone data formats like Ibiquity.

Use a proper aerial (i.e. a proper-length whip) and you shouldn't have as much trouble--just like rbrucecarter said above. "Radio-listening 101". Duh.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled anti-Ibiquity fantasy trip......
 
Zach said:
the local radio stations are the problem.

Local radio stations that don't want to and/or can't spend thousands of dollars for a defective, unstable technology that there's no need for and that earns exactly zero dollars for the owners are the problem?

I'd say they're the sane ones.
 
Darth_vader said:
Returning to reality for a moment, lousy Ibiquity reception is only "the norm" if the aerial AND/OR receiver is/are subpar. I can't imagine how the little "stubby" aerials they seem to be gluing to the roofs of cars these days, for whatever contrived reason or other, are even acceptible for adequate analogue reception let alone data formats like Ibiquity.

Use a proper aerial (i.e. a proper-length whip) and you shouldn't have as much trouble--just like rbrucecarter said above. "Radio-listening 101". Duh.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled anti-Ibiquity fantasy trip......

I have a stubby antenna on my car and get great analog FM reception, I don't notice any difference in range between that car and my other older one with a whip. It is not the antenna that causes iBlock to drop out. There has been a lot of braying on this board lately about how wonderful IBOC has become, that is a load of hooey, anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty in them knows that HD has less than half the range of analog and sounds pretty much the same if as good especially in a car. The only positive HD has is an ability to line ibiquities pockets at radios' expense.
 
Don't forget the opportunity to listen to the stellar programming on HD2, 3, and 4 streams.
 
KB1OKL said:
I have a stubby antenna on my car and get great analog FM reception, I don't notice any difference in range between that car and my other older one with a whip. It is not the antenna that causes iBlock to drop out. There has been a lot of braying on this board lately about how wonderful IBOC has become, that is a load of hooey, anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty in them knows that HD has less than half the range of analog and sounds pretty much the same if as good especially in a car. The only positive HD has is an ability to line ibiquities pockets at radios' expense.

Could you let us know what model that is? I doubt anybody would buy a car for decent FM reception, but it might be a factor in selection.

Between rent cars and the one my daughter has, I've been in a lot of new cars with stubby antennas. They work great for maybe 60 miles on analog, after that - nothing. AM is barely working. Maybe somebody has finally figured out a way to do it right, or you just got very lucky and the active antenna in that stub has a really low noise RF transistor in it. Once in a while, the semiconductor process produces a much better transistor - when you find one, you definitely want to keep it. But my overall experience with stubby antennas is bad. 60 miles is OK if you stay in the city, but if you drive a lot in the country, you really like that 150 mile or more range you get from a whip. Not necessarily for DX, but just to get radio at all.

Delco used to make a low end model in the mid 60's that was a deaf ear on AM. I always hated when my parents used the red car, because AM was gonna suck and I couldn't listen to the radio. GM tried some wires in the windshield in the 70's with the same disasterous results. Good Delco - bad antenna = lousy reception. I put a whip in the fender when I got the car - amazing difference! I could actually hear AM stations worth listening to instead of just local cr@p. If I had HD in a car with an antenna stub - I put a whip in the fender. Its not that hard and the results are definitely worth it when you are dealing with difficult reception problems like HD.
 
So...let me get this straight. People plunk down 30 large for a new Toy Auto and they're expected to find some aftermarket guy to rip out the shark-fin wavemagnet, drill a different hole in the brand-new body and stick a whip on there?

And...once again the radio stations are being vilified for not running out and signing up with iBiquity for a glitchy, semi-functional engineering mess that will run up their operating costs with NO ROI, hurt profitable analog coverage, and piss off listeners and clients??

Not gonna happen. And....NOT GONNA happen.

What IS likely to happen: as new HD-capable cars get into circulation, people will simply stop listening to the radio in the car. I'll go on the record right now. The radio industry is going to rue the day they opted to push this technology on the carmakers. In-car listening, arguably radio's last dominant stand with a fragmenting audience, is being imperiled by stupid HD Radio. And it's not being imposed on us by government, other media, or outsiders. Our nitwit "industry leaders" are making us do it....to OURSELVES. ::) ???
 
What he said.

I can't think of anything more spot-on. The only thing that might hold it back is that HD could collapse completely before it reaches a critical mass in the car market. Or, more likely, automakers will include a defeat function with each radio, allowing either the end user or the dealer to turn it off.

As for the radio stations spending money on this stuff, well, they're just run by idiots.
 
You guys are starting to make me think that everybody doesn't live in a major city, within line-of-sight of an antenna farm. Next you'll try to tell me that people who live in markets outside the top 20 want to hear local guys on the radio instead of a big-time, big-city jock who's syndicated.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
KB1OKL said:
I have a stubby antenna on my car and get great analog FM reception, I don't notice any difference in range between that car and my other older one with a whip. It is not the antenna that causes iBlock to drop out. There has been a lot of braying on this board lately about how wonderful IBOC has become, that is a load of hooey, anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty in them knows that HD has less than half the range of analog and sounds pretty much the same if as good especially in a car. The only positive HD has is an ability to line ibiquities pockets at radios' expense.

Could you let us know what model that is? I doubt anybody would buy a car for decent FM reception, but it might be a factor in selection.

Between rent cars and the one my daughter has, I've been in a lot of new cars with stubby antennas. They work great for maybe 60 miles on analog, after that - nothing. AM is barely working. Maybe somebody has finally figured out a way to do it right, or you just got very lucky and the active antenna in that stub has a really low noise RF transistor in it. Once in a while, the semiconductor process produces a much better transistor - when you find one, you definitely want to keep it. But my overall experience with stubby antennas is bad. 60 miles is OK if you stay in the city, but if you drive a lot in the country, you really like that 150 mile or more range you get from a whip. Not necessarily for DX, but just to get radio at all.

Delco used to make a low end model in the mid 60's that was a deaf ear on AM. I always hated when my parents used the red car, because AM was gonna suck and I couldn't listen to the radio. GM tried some wires in the windshield in the 70's with the same disasterous results. Good Delco - bad antenna = lousy reception. I put a whip in the fender when I got the car - amazing difference! I could actually hear AM stations worth listening to instead of just local cr@p. If I had HD in a car with an antenna stub - I put a whip in the fender. Its not that hard and the results are definitely worth it when you are dealing with difficult reception problems like HD.

The radio is a Blaupunkt in an 09 Pontiac G8 GT standard equipment. It is a pretty good radio, actually kind of high end, 6 CD changer and (I think) 230 watts audio, satellite etc. The AM range is decent too except it sounds muffled because of the brick wall filter. If the antenna is not as good as a whip which I also suspect it would first show up on an inferior technology like HD. I had to put a Yagi on my roof to get Boston HD FM stations from 40 miles out on my Sony XDR-FDH1 tuner. It was a waste of time as I found nothing compelling on HD and it didn't sound all that much better, quieter maybe. It's negatives, lousy range, drop outs and SOS programming though far outweigh any dubious and debatable positive(s) it may have.
 
KB1OKL said:
The dealer was telling the customer that it was the analog radio stations that were at fault...because they hadn't "upgraded". The truth of the matter is that the customers are getting lousy HD reception which is the norm and is why these car HD receivers are going to be a big boondoggle for these companies soon. There's nothing wrong with the radios other than they use a half baked modulation scheme, and there's certainly nothing wrong with the analog stations except in ibiquities eyes.

OK, then the dealer is misinformed. Everyone act surprised! ::)

I still say this technology should be shipped with it off by default, even if it pisses iBiquity off. Let the people who know and want to access it, have at it… and let iBiquity claim that millions have HD radios.

dumber than a box of hair said:
Local radio stations that don't want to and/or can't spend thousands of dollars for a defective, unstable technology that there's no need for and that earns exactly zero dollars for the owners are the problem?

I'd say they're the sane ones.

Whether you want to blame the local station for investing in the technology or for having it forced on them by corporate, it's still the station's fault for not working to the consumers' expectations. Period.

When people's favorite AAA station flipped to talk radio in Birmingham, they got all up in arms and said they'd never listen to radio again. It wasn't the changing market or competition that forced the move, it was the radio station that just up and changed, in their eyes. Consumers don't see past the dial like y'all do. So either way, to them it's the radio station's fault for either a) picking this bad technology or b) failing to getting it working satisfactorily.

You guys know that the engineers are stretched razor thin and can't be bothered with something that doesn't make them money (ie anything but the analog signal), fine. But consumers don't know that. That's why, if a station is going to commit to HD, they should be willing to invest in reliable equipment (if such a thing actually exists) and maximum power permissible. They screwed the pooch with this 1% debacle that should have never happened.

SirRoxalot said:
Don't forget the opportunity to listen to the stellar programming on HD2, 3, and 4 streams.

*shrug*

It ain't great, but it's five more formats in my small market than I would have otherwise.

Savage said:
And...once again the radio stations are being vilified for not running out and signing up with iBiquity for a glitchy, semi-functional engineering mess that will run up their operating costs with NO ROI, hurt profitable analog coverage, and piss off listeners and clients??

Considering how many local stations have stopped or never broadcast in stereo, I'd say the same argument could be made about that. It reduces the analog coverage area and pisses off listeners with added static. Which is why probably 6 local stations do without it.

Sounds like a glitchy engineering mess to me, too. I'm sure actually was in its infancy, as well.
 
Zach said:
KB1OKL said:
The dealer was telling the customer that it was the analog radio stations that were at fault...because they hadn't "upgraded". The truth of the matter is that the customers are getting lousy HD reception which is the norm and is why these car HD receivers are going to be a big boondoggle for these companies soon. There's nothing wrong with the radios other than they use a half baked modulation scheme, and there's certainly nothing wrong with the analog stations except in ibiquities eyes.

OK, then the dealer is misinformed. Everyone act surprised! ::)

Misinformed? I would be willing to bet that that lie came directly from ibiquity

I still say this technology should be shipped with it off by default, even if it pisses iBiquity off. Let the people who know and want to access it, have at it… and let iBiquity claim that millions have HD radios.

dumber than a box of hair said:
Local radio stations that don't want to and/or can't spend thousands of dollars for a defective, unstable technology that there's no need for and that earns exactly zero dollars for the owners are the problem?

I'd say they're the sane ones.

Whether you want to blame the local station for investing in the technology or for having it forced on them by corporate, it's still the station's fault for not working to the consumers' expectations. Period.
99.9% of consumers really just want their expensive radio to work HD or no HD, it's only geeks and people that need to have the latest gadget that care about it, that is what a consumer expects, they don't expect drop outs and flipping back and forth between analog and digital which is the technologies fault.
When people's favorite AAA station flipped to talk radio in Birmingham, they got all up in arms and said they'd never listen to radio again. It wasn't the changing market or competition that forced the move, it was the radio station that just up and changed, in their eyes. Consumers don't see past the dial like y'all do. So either way, to them it's the radio station's fault for either a) picking this bad technology or b) failing to getting it working satisfactorily.
It is the radio stations' fault or at least the higher up who got taken for this krappy technology that doesn't work.
You guys know that the engineers are stretched razor thin and can't be bothered with something that doesn't make them money (ie anything but the analog signal), fine. But consumers don't know that. That's why, if a station is going to commit to HD, they should be willing to invest in reliable equipment (if such a thing actually exists) and maximum power permissible. They screwed the pooch with this 1% debacle that should have never happened.
They screwed the pooch when they installed iBlock
SirRoxalot said:
Don't forget the opportunity to listen to the stellar programming on HD2, 3, and 4 streams.

*shrug*

It ain't great, but it's five more formats in my small market than I would have otherwise.

Savage said:
And...once again the radio stations are being vilified for not running out and signing up with iBiquity for a glitchy, semi-functional engineering mess that will run up their operating costs with NO ROI, hurt profitable analog coverage, and piss off listeners and clients??

Considering how many local stations have stopped or never broadcast in stereo, I'd say the same argument could be made about that. It reduces the analog coverage area and pisses off listeners with added static. Which is why probably 6 local stations do without it.

Sounds like a glitchy engineering mess to me, too. I'm sure actually was in its infancy, as well.
I think there is a huge difference in coverage area between HD and stereo analog FM, people are accustomed to stereo not coming in in a fringe area, just that the definition of a fringe area between HD and stereo is a huge, like at least double the area for analog stereo. I can put up with losing an FM signal at 60 miles out in my car but I would not put up with drop outs at 10 miles out or even 20.
 
Zach said:
Whether you want to blame the local station for investing in the technology or for having it forced on them by corporate, it's still the station's fault for not working to the consumers' expectations. Period.

Since when are there any "consumers' expectations," when the vast majority of the listeners don't even know what HD Radio is and probably don't even care? And since when is it the station's fault for not wasting thousands of dollars investing in something for which there is no consumer demand? (Thousands of dollars that a non-corporate independent owner probably doesn't have to waste on superfluous crap like HD.)

Show me the hue and cry for this garbage and you might have an argument.
 
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