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NEW FM PROCESSOR

It's sort of a "new-old stock" computer.
It's a Celeron @ 733 mhz in a discarded oem system from a color
scanner application.
It had been used just a few months when it was replaced with bigger or faster machine.
It was going to be crushed, and another like it.
Literally. So I got to take one home.
I got one to run, and one disassembled for parts.
It's running Windows 2000 and seems to have enough power to run Zara, but not much else at the same time. It came with a quarter gig, I added another quarter.
It has an industrial-grade case and is very quiet.
The bios sez celeron during reboot,
but Windows reports it as:

x86 Family 6 Model 8 Stepping
10
AT/AT COMPATIBLE

pretty much a steam engine by computer standards.

Not having any luck yet with the FTP.
Must I "Log in" by keyboard first or just use the loginame/loginame in the FTP string?
Last I used was FTP was in >command prompt usage in qnx systems.
I'm kinda slow at relearning an old trick in new environment or operating system.
 
I did successfully connect to powweb.com by browser adress line with /audioclips/audioclips but was found to not have folder permissions.

Then I went to microsoft command line prompt, set the directory for my file,
then entered ftp
ftp> open powweb.com
connected to powweb
connecion closed by remote host
it did not prompt for username, so
then I tried
ftp> open powweb.com/audioclips/audioclips

still no luck

has the password been reset?
 
Hi Tom!

That explains it - Celeron 733 is just not in the ball-park these days. 733 MHz, that likely means 66 MHz bus speed.. Those were the days! :)


The format of FTP URL's are: ftp://user:[email protected]

The site name is ftp.powweb.com
The user name and password are both audioclips

FTP is certainly old technology :). However, for transferring large files, web upload scripts tend not to work so well.

///Leif
 
I may be able to get another computer as older, slighly worn-out laptops are sold to a recycler/refurbisher here.
Should be pretty easy to come up with 50 or 100 bucks for a pentium at 1.73 ghz.

What would you recommend as the least speed/power that will permit Breakaway to run reliably?

Not having any luck with the uploads, I tried Core FTP, where it looks like I am logging on, but I never see xfer moving any data.
Are you sure the login is not locked up somehow?
 
If you don't have your port forwarding setup properly, then you'll have to use PASV instead of PORT for the connection method. If your ftp program has an "auto" option, just use that, or if not try PASV. If CoreFTP (never heard of it) doesn't support that, then... it ain't worth half a *123*

;)
 
OK, I think I may have figured out what was going on with the "no limiter" deal... I have both personal & FM installed, and for some reason when I rebooted I think personal instead of FM launched. Why? I dunno... but now I don't think there's anything wrong with the FM interface.

Sorry for the confusion!
 
Aha! :) That explains it.

Breakaway Personal is highly consumer oriented. It installs itself to run on startup. If it didn't, there wouldn't be any sound from the computer at all if the breakaway pipeline was the default system device, and you can guess the consumer response we'd have from that (after I installed BA i had no more sound from my computer, broken POS software, avoid!) :)..

You can just imagine the number of iterations we went through to bring stable system-wide multiband compression software to the average desktop! I still have nightmares about it.

Breakaway FM, on the other hand, is more of a professional tool, and has much less hand-holding when it comes to Audio I/O. This is not necessarily a good thing. A skilled radio engineer who could calibrate any part of a traditional analog chain in his sleep, does not necessarily know set up a computer for live processing.

I'm learning a tremendous amount from you and other beta testers -- Thank you!

One of the things that are becoming apparent, is the sore need for a manual!

I might just have to hire someone else to write it. As the engineer who dreamed up and created the whole thing, obviously everything is *completely* logical to me. That makes me slightly less than ideal to document it. :)

Best regards,
///Leif
 
I've been switching back and forth night-n-day. Days on ART only from Old Japanese oem computer.
Nights are with Breakaway then through ART off this laptop. This weekend I will really try to get recordings from the '62 Plymouth.

As I am sold on this and will buy it just to play with, I should email immediately for the ad-free demo.
First I gotta shovel out the mailbox. I'm sure it's jammed.

If there's any real complaint, it's that while Breakaway increases avg density, and is truly louder overall, it does such
a good job that even turned way down, as I'm using it, that the "apparent loudness" is less.

Said inversely: The ART alone sounds louder as dynamic range is not as controlled.
Breakway or Breakaway with ART "is" louder by monitoring RF waveform, but doesn't sound as loud.

I sound clearer and more full at a distance with the Breakaway, no doubts about it.
But I don't sound as loud, ever. It's audio dynamic range, and why this is so well suited for FM.

It is as you said early in this thread, Leif. Loudness is counterintuitive.

I realize that if I'm louder theres less space to hear the "loud" in.
Same thing with the reverb. There's almost no room left in the audio after Breakaway and ART to hear the reverb in.

I had already tried the PASV mode in Core FTP.
I kept getting "Connection forcibly closed by remote host".
Is my cookie perhaps blocked as too many attempts with incorrect password/ protocol. etc?
 
Might I recommend FileZilla ;)
http://filezilla-project.org/
it's based on Mozilla technologies, and is open-source and free (of licenses i mean, not just price)


"Connection forcibly closed by remote host" is just a client-sided error report. A server would never send back an error message like that, so... It's best to get a modern client than can (A) actually connect, and (B) tell you why not when it can't - with the actual response returned from the server.

:)
 
Hi Tom!

Very interesting observations.

I don't hear what you're hearing, but it might be a matter of my ears being trained not to equate loudness to distortion. When I listen, I tend to focus on the transients, and the extreme high-end -- things that do not come through very well with traditional processors at competitive loudness.

People do hear things differently, though, and I'll bet a lot of people do equate distortion with loudness. Maybe this is the reason why traditional FM processors have been so successful, despite what they really sound like from a hi-fi point of view!

Breakaway indeed controls the dynamic range very well - but it does let clean transients through like no FM processor before it. This is partly thanks to the design of the front-end, but the real magic is in the back-end. Most FM processors have to use HF limiters and other tricks to dull the sound before it hits the final clipper, to prevent overt distortion. The back-end in BaFM needs no such help -- it manages the distortion completely in the final clipper, so there was never any need for HF limiting. In fact, you can see how much the final clipper is doing from the output meters. It's not just a meter with red on top, it's two meters (2 per channel) -- the red before-clipper-meter being BEHIND the yellow after-clipper meter, showing exactly how much the clipper cuts off the top. :)


It may be worth trying the Orban loudness meter. It's a free download, easy to use, and has the CBS algorithm built in. It's a neat algorithm, pretty accurate with regards to how people on average hear things. It's a shame it's not an industry standard -- would have been nice to see it everywhere!

Best of luck, looking forward to hear your progress.

///Leif
 
Jesse Graffam said:
Might I recommend FileZilla ;)
http://filezilla-project.org/
it's based on Mozilla technologies, and is open-source and free (of licenses i mean, not just price)
Having tried several FTP clients, Filezilla leaves the others in the dust in accuracy & up/download speeds...I highly recommend it.
 
I did try out Orban's volume meter on this computer, but I don't think it ran on the old beast with win2000 at all.

Even the semantics of loudness is misleading. There is the "smidgen of distortion" that can suggest loudness in some instances,
but I'm referring more to how low the "low end" can fall during normal modulation.
Let's say, if everything were between 95% and 100%, obviously that would be "louder" but sound more compressed, and have less "air" between
peaks in volume.

When I run the ART alone, I hear more "room" and less loud, but the CONTRAST between the low and high levels sounds louder than
Breakaway, which keeps average mod levels higher all the time.

I'm not trying to split hairs here, just acknowledging that there is no free lunch in volume.
One cannot blow unless one sucks, and the speaker cone can only go back and forth, and loudness is all perception.

I'm still auditioning and playing.
I'm trying now 10 db more limiting on the ART, exactly the same settings I was using without Breakaway FM, and its sucking in peaks
but sounds louder.
I'm still on dance, 0db, 17 range and power, speed 0, bass cut -13, bass shape -50.

I'm still liking what I hear, but am trying to make it "sound" as loud as the ART alone, which may not be possible.

While I am praising the sound of Breakaway FM, I am sure you understand my point about actual volume vs perception.
I guess I'm aiming at a point between where I was with ART, and something which IS louder, but sounds slightly less loud.
Clear as mud, right?
I tried with Filezilla this morning and still wasn't getting any success.
 
Tom, I think what you're trying to say is you want more "Perceived Loudness" as opposed to actual "Waveform Loudness".

Perceived Loudness is definately what matters most, and you're 100% correct that by leaving some breathing space in the audio/waveform the transients that come through will sound earth shatteringly loud. The new Orban Optimod 8500 firmware comes to mind.. It sounds far more open but louder (like the Omnia's have always sounded) :)
 
Let me see if I can't straighten this out:

Loudness is actually pretty straightforward - It comes from having a high average level. It's really that simple -- when you turn up the volume control, you gain up the waveform, which means that the average level (which the ear is sensitive to) goes up.

Having a waveform which is dense in the middle, but not the edges (such as what you would get from running a multiband compressor at lots of drive, fast attack and fast release), it will sound like it's loud, except it really isn't -- it's just squashed.

If you then switch to a waveform which has been lighty multiband processed but fed into a simple clipper, it will sound much louder and more dynamic (edge density will be high at the peaks, and low at the valleys - yielding dynamics even though the peak level doesn't change). However, it will also sound distorted.

If you take that lightly multiband processed signal, and feed it into an advanced distortion cancelled clipper, it will sound as loud and dynamic as before, but the distortion is mostly gone. *This* is the secret to why Breakaway FM is so loud and open sounding. Loudness doesn't come from the front-end -- it comes from the back-end, period.

In plain english, both all three waveforms will be dense, but the difference is in *where* they are dense. If you want it loud, it must be dense at the *edges* -- not in the middle.

As such, the output of the back-end must be preserved and fed to the transmitter as precisely as possible. Adding any processing after the back-end (even if it's just EQ / Filtering) means turning the back-end into a front-end! And, as we know, loudness doesn't come from front-ends. If this is done, the final result will be neither loud, dynamic nor clean.

This is where the problem is. Tom, it is possible to use Breakaway FM for AM, but to do it you need a professional airchain -- an exciter / transmitter that will *accurately* reproduce Breakaway FM's carefully output signal. *Any* tiny bit of modification after Breakaway FM is a loss, not a gain. Any sweetening of the audio, be it EQ, Reverb etc, must be done *before* the back-end. Try connecting BaFM to an AM transmitter than has an AES input -- those that do will likely not have any problems with neither tilt nor high frequency response.


Anyway. Breakaway FM is an FM processor, as its name implies :). Tom, please create a new thread for our continued discussion on this topic -- let's bring this thread back on track, and talk about FM here only.


BofH, i think we're on the same wavelength, only using different terms. Having a lightly processed waveform and doing the peak-control by clipping, does indeed mean having some breathing space, since there will actually be transients, even if their peak level is virtually the same as the rest. If the distortion can be managed, this is indeed the key to being loud.

New 8500 firmware? More open but louder? Most interesting! I wonder if Bob finally improved that final clipper. I spent a lot of time in front of an earlier 8500 version, and found that you could get it very open and loud by turning off most of the distortion control (multiband clippers, hf limiters etc), and it sounded excellent on certain songs, but unfortunately terrible on others, since the final clipper itself does have distortion control.

I'd love to hear an example of what this new 8500 can do. Care to make an MPX recording, BofH?


On that note, BW Scott, you seemed pretty eager to get an editable page on mpxtool.com, and I took care of it promptly, but haven't heard from you since. What happened?

I also never got a response regarding the Analog Breakaway FM recording I made to appease your concern regarding the alleged unfairness of using an all digital path for Breakaway FM. Inquiring minds want to know ;).

Best regards,
///Leif

P.S. A new beta is in the works - should be here in a couple of days.
 
Also with two new presets of mine, I'm hoping anyways, will be in the new beta. I still have to give one of them the once-over against the "Torture Test" as well as some of my own...

But I will tease you ;) The one that's going to be in the beta for sure, is my answer to the Jack FM sound. And the possible second one is my answer to "a certain obnoxiously loud 'urban' station from NYC" ;) ;)
 
konbaasiang said:
On that note, BW Scott, you seemed pretty eager to get an editable page on mpxtool.com, and I took care of it promptly, but haven't heard from you since. What happened?

I also never got a response regarding the Analog Breakaway FM recording I made to appease your concern regarding the alleged unfairness of using an all digital path for Breakaway FM. Inquiring minds want to know ;).

Best regards,
///Leif

A boy & girl that are 23 days old, that's what happened. I'm still fine tuning my internal processing but the distortion cancellation is having a hard time dealing with the high frequencies right now. ;) I'm trying to get back into the swing but I imagine that i will stay 'gated' for the next week or two.
 
A boy & girl that are 23 days old, that's what happened

Whoa, congratulations, man! Two of them, I can see you have your hands full :).

No worries. Best of luck, looking forward to your gating threshold coming down some time in the future so those AGCs can start pumping again ;).

///Leif
 
New Beta Up!

Breakaway FM version 0.90.40 beta is up!

http://bredband.leif.cx/browse/bafm

New features:

Optional Wideband compressors added to front-end, for even greater sound customization.

Several new presets added!
  • Amsterdam -- emulating a sound and loudness of a particular famous dutch radio station, but without the distortion
  • French Kiss -- a highly addictive "oldschool" sound, with carefully controlled pumping, and unthinkable bass
  • Jill FM -- Awaiting description from Jesse G, but it sure sounds great
  • New York -- The loudest of them all, and surprisingly clean for the insane loudness level
  • Reference Heavy NR -- Reference Heavy with downward expanders enabled
  • Plutonium NR - Plutonium with downward expanders enabled

Phase Linear Parametric EQ for Left/Right outputs added (for compensating sound card or STL frequency response)

Several bugfixes and stability improvements.


AND:

Breakaway FM Calibration Tool

For those without easy access to an oscilloscope, this tool will help calibrate the Tilt control (to compensate for your sound card's LF rolloff) for acceptable peak accuracy into your exciter.

No oscilloscope needed! All you need is:
  • A soldering iron (if you have an exciter, you probably a soldering iron, and you're probably not afraid to use it)
  • A DB25 male connector (parallel printer)
  • A 1/8 inch TRS plug (headphone plug)
  • A 1 megaohm resistor (500kohm will do, or somewhere in between)
  • Some 2-conductor wire

The program contains all instructions and schematic, in an easy to use step-by-step wizard interface. The calibration tool needs a computer with an on-board parallel printer port, and Windows XP / 2000 (32-bit only).


New beta and calibration tool available here:

http://bredband.leif.cx/browse/bafm

Comments welcome, as always! ;)

///Leif
 
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