New HD Radio with a whip!

[Mike Walker]

Much has been made (by some) of the fact that HD Radios "need exotic external antennas". Which is ridiculous, of course. ALL FM RADIOS NEED A GOOD ANTENNA! The same dipole or whip that's been used for fm forever does just fine.

However, I have said that a whip on a table radio (as opposed to a boombox) is unlikely. I stand corrected. Here's one http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category.cgi?category=landing_radio820hd

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Kinky!
Are chains, tattoos, and leather coming next?
Those HD hucksters will do anything to sell their hype. ;D

The real test is how well it picks up HD radio signals. Possibly, not any better then the rat tails supplied with the other HD radios. We'll see.

I have reliable local reports of no indoor reception, even with the supplied external antennas with the new Rat Shack Accurian HD radio, within plain sight of the broadcasting towers. That's awful!

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

Here's a decent rule of thumb for FM HD: If you can get a analog subcarrier decently, chances are the HD will work too. The coverage ISN'T currently as good as the main channel. With more and more radios being sold every day, I'd say at some point the smart guys in R and D will come up with a better receiver to get better HD range. I'm thinking it'll take at least 5 years to see this. True, we're saddled with a lemon. Now it's our time as an industry to make lemonade out of it. Don't discount R and D from the receiver manufactures' side.

As far as the AM standard goes, we need to come up with a better idea. Either it needs to go out-of-band or we need to go with what the rest of the world uses which is DRM. IF we get the manufactures to make radios that can get DRM NOW, 10 years from NOW we can quite possibly just kill the analog on many stations and go pure DRM digital which will work BETTER than analog for coverage and noise imunity. At the bare minimum, can we at least get the HD cartel to ask future radios to be able to pick up DRM also for AM? That way we won't paint ourselves into a corner we can can't back out of.

 

[Tom Wells]

I called the Cambridge people just a moment ago, with a few key questions, which they'll hopefully answer by email.

1. Is that AM loop tuned, or broadbanded into a Intermodulation-mushmaster?
2. Does the AM tune continuously (as this is a critical feature for fidelity in AM) or is it locked to 1 khz, or worst, 10khz steps?
3. What is the IF passband? This determines upper response, 20khz wide IF gives you 10khz audio, etc.

Whether or not the HD works and /or sounds good, the criteria above determine whether I will buy.
Before you think I am being obtuse, consider that each of the above have been an inherent standard of radios since TRFs died in
the early 30's until the advent of ..oh varactor diodes and Integrated circuits.
Yes, the IFs were 20 kc wide on the skirts, at least in average radios.
So that's the last 25 years.
So 50 years worth of radios worked this way, and that's what the majority of us met AM on.

Our acceptance of miserable sounding AM has been the devil's work behind the scenes, as we more value our lamp dimmers, flourescent lights, aquarium heaters, computers and every sort of discontinuous-current device imaginable, all with AM interference.
Manufacturers respond with muffled AM receivers to hide the noise.
People then forgot how good the old radios sounded.
The modern perception of AM sounding bad is all of "our" own making.
And the FCC is due much blame for not putting any teeth in real Part 15 compliance.
The same locally-generated interference will likely preclude much AM-HD reception in homes,
unless noise-abatement measures are implemented.

DRM or any other digital mode will work, but it will never behave they need it to at medium wave.
It sort of will, acceptably in daytime, but skywave throws a loop that can't be "algorithmed" out.
And of course, it's not at all compatible.
I will happily buy converters if they do not degrade existing performance. I like new bands.
The old ones are full of stale formats, and a new band might be able support an all-burlesque format, or an all-sea-shanty format.
Just kidding.

I want more radio, without any compromise to my existing service, which never needed digitization.

It needed the "office" to spend more money on MORE PEOPLE, which is the only real way to cram more "quality" into a signal.
But then this has to do with the "art" of radio, and dangit, there's no "art of radio" board.

 

[700WLW]

Much has been made (by some) of the fact that HD Radios "need exotic external antennas". Which is ridiculous, of course. ALL FM RADIOS NEED A GOOD ANTENNA! The same dipole or whip that's been used for fm forever does just fine.

However, I have said that a whip on a table radio (as opposed to a boombox) is unlikely. I stand corrected. Here's one http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category.cgi?category=landing_radio820hd

You forgot to mention this, which seems to be the same requirement for all HD Radios:

"...an external AM loop antenna supports the AM band..."

http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category.cgi?category=landing_radio820hd

Maybe, one has to supply their own external dipole:

"The unit comes with an integral telescoping FM antenna--like the Sangean and Radiosophy receivers--but from the illustration, it's clear an external 75-ohm FM antenna can be attached as well. (Sangean's telescoping antenna unscrews; Radiosophy has a separate set of terminal to attach a 75-ohm adapter.) The radio comes in black and white--Onyx and Arctic White, rather. The firm expects to ship shortly."

http://digital-am-fm.com/receivers/

Hmmmm.... a bit misleading ?

 

[Mike Walker]

Uh...the ability to connect an external antenna is a plus...something that better (more expensive) analog radios have, and radio hobbyists are willing to pay more money for. It's a premium feature, which gives extra capability to those who want to extend the useful range of their radios.

And an external loop IS NOT "required" for HD radio. The reason the loop is usually external is that HD radios are "software defined"...with lots of computer processing onboard. In other words, they're an "rf-rich" environment. So expensive shielding should be used to keep rf emmissions out of the antenna, or (cheaper, and more practical) the antenna should be placed away from the radio.

Talk about a non-issue! EVERY component tuner or receiver I've ever owned has come with an external (or externally mountable, removable) loop, or ferrite rod antenna. High quality analog table radios and portables routinely do as well (my RCA boombox from Wal Mart came with an external am loop, as did my Casio Boombox I got about a decade ago). My Cambridge Soundworks Model 88 has an external antenna connection for am, as does my Grundig S350, Sangean ATS-909, Drake SW8, Eton E5, Kaito KA1102, and others. YAWN! My Zenith Trans Oceanic, more than a half-century old, has a removable AM loop (called a "Wave Magnet" by any Zenith collector!) with a long cable and even suction cups for sticking the antenna to a window or other smooth object.

Far from exotic, external loop antennas have been a staple of AM radio listeners for as long as there has been AM radio!

 

[700WLW]

Uh...the ability to connect an external antenna is a plus...something that better (more expensive) analog radios have, and radio hobbyists are willing to pay more money for. It's a premium feature, which gives extra capability to those who want to extend the useful range of their radios.

And an external loop IS NOT "required" for HD radio. The reason the loop is usually external is that HD radios are "software defined"...with lots of computer processing onboard. In other words, they're an "rf-rich" environment. So expensive shielding should be used to keep rf emmissions out of the antenna, or (cheaper, and more practical) the antenna should be placed away from the radio.

Talk about a non-issue! EVERY component tuner or receiver I've ever owned has come with an external (or externally mountable, removable) loop, or ferrite rod antenna. High quality analog table radios and portables routinely do as well (my RCA boombox from Wal Mart came with an external am loop, as did my Casio Boombox I got about a decade ago). My Cambridge Soundworks Model 88 has an external antenna connection for am, as does my Grundig S350, Sangean ATS-909, Drake SW8, Eton E5, Kaito KA1102, and others. YAWN! My Zenith Trans Oceanic, more than a half-century old, has a removable AM loop (called a "Wave Magnet" by any Zenith collector!) with a long cable and even suction cups for sticking the antenna to a window or other smooth object.

Far from exotic, external loop antennas have been a staple of AM radio listeners for as long as there has been AM radio!

Funny, none of our analog radios need external loop and dipole antennas, as HD radios ! Duck-and-cover !

 

[Mike Walker]

Loop and ferrite rod antennas are the most common types for AM. Dipoles (or monopoles) are the most common type used for FM. Virtually every radio uses one or two of these antenna types. Including yours (they're just attached to the radio...as they are in CHEAPER, lower quality radios...that's all).

Again...a wire dipole, and loop (sometimes with screw-in wall mount) are included with virtually every component tuner and receiver. They have been for my entire lifetime. Take the back off a 60 year old aM radio. What do you find inside? A loop! GEEZ!

 

[700WLW]

Loop and ferrite rod antennas are the most common types for AM. Dipoles (or monopoles) are the most common type used for FM. Virtually every radio uses one or two of these antenna types. Including yours (they're just attached to the radio...as they are in CHEAPER, lower quality radios...that's all).

Again...a wire dipole, and loop (sometimes with screw-in wall mount) are included with virtually every component tuner and receiver. They have been for my entire lifetime. Take the back off a 60 year old aM radio. What do you find inside? A loop! GEEZ!

I am not debating internal-ferrite bar and whip antennas, as standard on most AM/FM analog radios, but that the main products page for the SoundWorks Radio 820HD, had no mention of the external 75-ohm adapter, but this was mentioned as observed, on another website. I find this deceptive advertising, and tells me, that as all HD Radios, in order to pick up the HD channels, external dipole and loop antennas are required. Loop and dipole antennas not standard equipment on modern AM/FM radios. GEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZ... !

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Loop and ferrite rod antennas are the most common types for AM. Dipoles (or monopoles) are the most common type used for FM. Virtually every radio uses one or two of these antenna types. Including yours (they're just attached to the radio...as they are in CHEAPER, lower quality radios...that's all).

Again...a wire dipole, and loop (sometimes with screw-in wall mount) are included with virtually every component tuner and receiver. They have been for my entire lifetime. Take the back off a 60 year old aM radio. What do you find inside? A loop! GEEZ!

I think Mike is ignoring the word external.
Many FM radios use a wire pigtail, antenna rod, or power cord antenna, and work fine for local stations.
Many AM radios use an internal ferrite antenna, and work OK for local stations.
External antennas are unnecessary for many locations. I doubt most consumers will be pleased to add them.
Most HD supporters are DXers. They add extra, normally unnecessary, external antennas to pick up the weak HD signals.
700WLW said:

Funny, none of our analog radios need external loop and dipole antennas, as HD radios !

 

[Mike Walker]

ALL component tuners and receivers come with external fm AND am antennas. Every single one of them that I'm aware of. Better table radios, portables, and communications receivers do as well. What doesn't? Cheap portables, and Walkmans. That's about it.

One other point...HD Radios don't come with external antennas because of some defect that makes them insensitive. HD Radios are COMPUTERS. There is TONS of rf generated inside the box. So you get better reception if the antenna is a couple of feet from the box. Set your cheap portable radio on top of your pc, and see how good the reception is! Now extensive rf shielding can be added internally, but it increases cost, and makes the unit heavier. Better to just move the antenna a few feet away. Simpler, and cheaper. If your problem with HD is that it uses the same damn antenna types that have been sold with GOOD QUALITY radios for decades, then talk about nitpicking!

 

[700WLW]

ALL component tuners and receivers come with external fm AND am antennas. Every single one of them that I'm aware of. Better table radios, portables, and communications receivers do as well. What doesn't? Cheap portables, and Walkmans. That's about it.

One other point...HD Radios don't come with external antennas because of some defect that makes them insensitive. HD Radios are COMPUTERS. There is TONS of rf generated inside the box. So you get better reception if the antenna is a couple of feet from the box. Set your cheap portable radio on top of your pc, and see how good the reception is! Now extensive rf shielding can be added internally, but it increases cost, and makes the unit heavier. Better to just move the antenna a few feet away. Simpler, and cheaper. If your problem with HD is that it uses the same damn antenna types that have been sold with GOOD QUALITY radios for decades, then talk about nitpicking!

The fact, that typical AM/FM boom-boxes, pocket-radios, and clock radios do not require external antennas, attests to the coverage of analog signals. All HD radios, come with AM loop antennas, and either dipole, or external FM jacks - that attests to HD Radio/IBOC's lousy coverage, which is problematic, at 50% to 60% that of analog.

 

[Mike Walker]

The types of external antennas we're talking about (dipoles and monopoles, loops, etc) have little or no more gain than internal antennas. So it has absolutely nothing to do with coverage differences between analog and digital.

Your pocket portable or walkman would also perform better if the antenna could be located up high (for fm), or by a window (for AM), while the radio stayed with you where it's convenient for listening. Of course that's impractical for that type of radio. Wait till true portable and walkman-type hd radios become available (and they will eventually). They won't have external antennas either...but hopefully WILL have the option of using one.

I have a velcro strip on every AM radio I own, to hold the ferrite coupling rod I use with my Terk AM Advantage and Select-A-Tenna tuned loop antennas for dx reception. Even my tiny Sony Walkman has the velcro strip. The radio is actually smaller (narrower) than the rod itself, but the AM Advantage sure gives it a kick in da' pants!

Whether you're into HD or not, if you're not experimenting with external antennas, you're missing lots of great FREE entertainment (and information). I know you love AM, 700WLW. Pick up an AM Advantage, and place it next to the Sony pocket radio you talk so much about. If you're east of the Mississippi (which I think you are), you'll probably hear SOMETHING on every channel across the dial. Pretty cool! AM dxing has been a hobby all my life. ANYTHING which interferes with it (including AM HD if in fact it does) is NOT welcome to me!

 

[700WLW]

The types of external antennas we're talking about (dipoles and monopoles, loops, etc) have little or no more gain than internal antennas. So it has absolutely nothing to do with coverage differences between analog and digital.

Not true -

"The Sony ICF-S10MK2 with a Radio Shack Loop was compared against a modified ICOM R75 with a Quantum QX Loop. This testing was, in essence, a shootout between a $31 portable setup and a $780 tabletop setup! The R75 provides ~1.77 µV AM sensitivity [PREAMP "1" ON] and the Quantum adds another +40 dB of RF gain... The $11 Sony, when coupled with a loop antenna, is more than adequate for "casual" AM DX."

http://www.radiointel.com/review-sonys10mk2.htm

The point is, that all HD Radios come with AM loop antennas, in order to have a chance, at picking up the HD channels. And, that fact that all HD radios have external jacks for FM reception, while all analog clock, pocket, and walkman radios do not, attests to the fact that IBOC has poor coverage (and, that many people, with HD radios, have mounted roof-top and attic dipole antennas).

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Mike Walker said:

HD Radios are COMPUTERS.

As most Americans, I already have computers and an internet connection, so I don't need an "HD radio computer" to pick up tens of thousands of radio stations from all over the world, including virtually all HD stations, without all those cumbersome, expensive, external antennas, just to hear a couple of local stations I can hear on my computer.
Perfect fidelity and stereo separation from a Radio Shack Accurian tabletop HD radio only 12 inches wide, and with 2 inch speakers. What a joke! :

 

[700WLW]

Mike Walker said:

HD Radios are COMPUTERS.

As most Americans, I already have computers and an internet connection, so I don't need an "HD radio computer" to pick up tens of thousands of radio stations from all over the world, including virtually all HD stations, without all those cumbersome, expensive, external antennas, just to hear a couple of local stations I can hear on my computer.
Perfect fidelity and stereo separation from a Radio Shack Accurian tabletop HD radio only 12 inches wide, and with 2 inch speakers. What a joke! :

My $10 Sony hand-held has a 2 1/4" speaker, so I can imagine, what the Accurian HD sounds like, with its 2" speakers - more Chinese-made junk from RS !

 

[Mike Walker]

Measurements of the analog section of the Accurian...fully on-par with expensive component tuners (with the exception of a little droop at the highest frequencies. Of course you wouldn't hear that on an HD station. If your 10 dollar Sony matches this measured quality, I'll eat it!

Freq (Hz) AM Response (dB) FM Response (dB)
----------- ------------------------ ----------------------
20 -21.9 -0.9
50 -14.5 -0.5
100 -8.9 -0.5
200 -4.3 -0.2
300 -2.4 -0.1
400 -1.4 -0.1
1k 0 (ref) 0 (ref)
2k +0.1 -0.5
3k -0.5 -0.8
4k -1.8 -1.0
5k -3.0 -1.0
6k -4.9 -1.1
7k -6.7 -1.1
8k -9.3 -1.1
9k Gone -1.1
10k Gone -1.1
11k Gone -1.2
12k Gone -1.5
13k Gone -2.1
14k Gone -2.8
15k Gone -4.3

------------

Analog FM Harmonic Distortion:
2nd Harmonic: -54dB
3rd Harmonic: -51dB

Analog FM Stereo Separation:
@300Hz 34dB
@1kHz 34dB
@5kHz 35dB
@10kHz 35dB
@12kHz 35dB
@15kHz 35dB

---------------------

Notes:
1. Measurements are for analog reception only.
2. IBOC frequency response was not measured.
3. Both analog and IBOC are processed through the radio's DSP.
4. There is wideband digital noise, down only 20dB (relative to 100% mod)
on the audio outputs in the spectrum from 2-20MHz.
5. All measurements were via the headphone output jack.

 

[700WLW]

Measurements of the analog section of the Accurian...fully on-par with expensive component tuners (with the exception of a little droop at the highest frequencies. Of course you wouldn't hear that on an HD station. If your 10 dollar Sony matches this measured quality, I'll eat it!

http://www.radiointel.com/review-sonys10mk2.htm

I'm not giving you, one of MY Sonys to eat - ask Hippo ! Anyway, what you posted, is Greek-to-me (some of it) !

 

[hipporadio]

ALL component tuners and receivers come with external FM and AM antennas—every single one of them that I'm aware of. Better table radios, portables, and communications receivers do as well. What doesn't? Cheap portables and Walkmans...

One other point...HD Radios don't come with external antennas because of some defect that makes them insensitive. HD Radios are COMPUTERS. There is TONS of RF generated inside the box. So you get better reception if the antenna is a couple of feet from the box...

The fact, that typical AM/FM boom-boxes, pocket-radios, and clock radios do not require external antennas, attests to the coverage of analog signals. All HD radios, come with AM loop antennas, and either dipole, or external FM jacks - that attests to HD Radio/IBOC's lousy coverage, which is problematic, at 50% to 60% that of analog.

OK ‘700... Unless you’re in the 12-step program—time out for a cold one!

The ultimate reception capability of ANY GOOD RADIO (the design of which is not totally predicated by mere convenience and portability) DEPENDS on a GOOD ANTENNA. Simple monopole “whips”, “rat-tails”, and built-in 2-inch ferrite bars are generally designed to accommodate the portable or small form-factor nature of a “lower level” radio—they are NOT state-of-the-art performance-oriented antennas. Interestingly—the BETTER a receiver’s electronics are, the more dependant it may become on finding a suitable physical mate in the form of less-convenient antenna design. It’s the simple and irrefutable laws of physics.

Just because a cheap clock radio or boombox appears to present a well-populated FM dial with a mere 12-inch “rat-tail” or 24-inch whip attached—DOESN’T make it better than a $1000 Dynalab tuner which may present the initial illusion of mediocre performance using that same “rat-tail”. Remember—electronics live by the concept of “trade-offs”... What low-level radios lack in a physical antenna, they MUST make up for in the electrical sense—often with very bad side effects.

A popular “trick” is to insert a “jacked up” broadband RF amplifier stage into these tuning sections so that an otherwise cheap and compromised radio appears to pick up a fair number of stations. Things are “good” so long as EVERY station appearing at the gate to this radio is nearly equal in signal strength and all the I.F. taboos are abided. A serious problem with this “cheater design” occurs when your little radio finds its way close to one (or several) powerful stations—the amp overloads and you’re forced to tune thru a mess. Should your little portable greet two strong FM stations spaced on the dial at I.F. taboo intervals of 10.6/10.8 MHz—the radio literally “looses its mind” and you have to endure station intermod ghosts that cover desirable signals.

Simply put... There’s no free lunch, and you cannot broadly characterize a radio as a poor-performer because its design attempts to fairly balance “electronics” with “physics”. I know that you are acquainted with Grundig’s infamous FR-200 “Crank Radio”... I own one, and can assure you that it presents MORE FM stations using its built-in 24-inch whip then would my legendary McIntosh component stereo tuner with a similar monopole. TRUST ME when I admit to you that ANY fair comparison ends there. Equip the Mac with a premium tuned dipole or attic/roofline antenna—and the FR-200 quickly assumes its rightful position as the total joke that it is!

Measurements of the analog section of the Accurian—fully on-par with expensive component tuners... If your 10 dollar Sony matches this measured quality, I'll eat it!

I'm not giving you one of MY Sonys to eat - ask Hippo!

NO BABY! ...See here I go ‘n get a genuine retro pocket radio—and I start slipping into “sixties speak”.

I put my extra Sony in a Seal-a-Meal, and promised not to free it until I get really insane and open a radio museum with my Powerball winnings... I guess that radio will remain oxygen-free for a looooong time