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radioelizabeth

Guest
Well...

What a ride.

I'm anticepating a close to the previous thread on "color coding".

Feels good to be challenged and even offended a few times, in order to strengthen the backbone and be affirmed in good solid positions.

Feels great to be able to stand behind every single word with my own name. It's like a test of integrity and character. Glad to know I'm still who I say I am. :)

I think at one point I was told I lived in "la la land". Hmm... sometimes I wouldn't mind visiting, but I wouldn't want to live there. :)

But whatzthat did (eventually) cite some stations that do indeed define their music by skin color...or at least, they use skin color in their positioner or name.

It was refreshing to finally be given examples of that.

Whatever the reason is on why they choose to do that, I would say I think it's a bad idea.

That is my opinion, of course, but it just doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

There has been much discussion that because they do, it should be ok. And that stations industry wide select music or pass on music based on the skin color of an artist (although, that claim was never substantiated). Again, that just seems so wrong.

Either way.

Terms like "Black Gospel" or "White AC" (never heard that before, but it would be just as strange) feel forced and uncomfortable and I'm under the impression they don't do much but cause a dividing line between people and music- a line that is drawn based on very primitive thinking.

I think one post actually went as far as to make an assumption that "black people like black music". I'm going to go global in my position here, and refute that.

People are not skin colors. Music is a lot of things, but never "black or white".

Other posts lumped artists together and made the assumption all they had in common was the color of their skin. Sad. :(

At one point the "gender card" was even played. Not sure what that has to do with the thread, but I will say I'm glad I'm a girl. Boys aren't nearly as pretty. (well, some are, but I digress...);)

No examples were ever shown of any CCM ACs or CCM CHRs passing on an artist because of skin color. So, I'm guessing any more attempt to have evidence of that cited will fall on deaf ears.

Thanks for the lurkers and posters alike.

:)
e

<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
> Well...
>
> What a ride.
>
> I'm anticepating a close to the previous thread on "color
> coding".
>
> Feels good to be challenged and even offended a few times,
> in order to strengthen the backbone and be affirmed in good
> solid positions.
>
> Feels great to be able to stand behind every single word
> with my own name. It's like a test of integrity and
> character. Glad to know I'm still who I say I am. :)
>
> But whatzthat did (eventually) cite some stations that do
> indeed define their music by skin color...or at least, they
> use skin color in their positioner or name.
>
> It was refreshing to finally be given examples of that.
>
> Whatever the reason is on why they choose to do that, I
> would say I think it's a bad idea.
>
> That is my opinion, of course, but it just doesn't seem to
> make much sense to me.
>
> There has been much discussion that because they do, it
> should be ok. And that stations industry wide select music
> or pass on music based on the skin color of an artist.
> Again, that just seems so wrong.
>
> Either way.
>
> Terms like "Black Gospel" or "White AC" (never heard that
> before, but it would be just as strange) feel forced and
> uncomfortable and I'm under the impression they don't do
> much but cause a dividing line between people and music- a
> line that is drawn based on very primitive thinking.
>
> I think one post actually went as far as to make an
> assumption that "black people like black music". I'm going
> to go global in my position here, and refute that.
>
> Other posts lumped artists together and made the assumption
> all they had in common was the color of their skin. Sad. :(
>
> At one point the "gender card" was even played. Not sure
> what that has to do with the thread, but I will say I'm glad
> I'm a girl. Boys aren't nearly as pretty. (well, some are,
> but I digress...);)
>
> No examples were ever shown of any CCM ACs or CCM CHRs
> passing on an artist because of skin color. So, I'm guessing
> any more attempt to have evidence of that cited will fall on
> deaf ears.
>
> Thanks for the lurkers and posters alike.
>
> :)
> e
>




Hey wow! 2nd post on a new thread!

I just wanna touch on a couple things regarding the consideration of ethnicity in programming. First let me make some folks angry. Black fols do like Black music. White folks do like White music. The difficulty with these statements are many and deep. Are you (speaking to any reader) someone who considers R&B and Rap to be "Black" music? In that case, you're right, there are a lot of Black people who like Black music. Are you (again, anyone reading this) someone who considers Rock, Pop and Country to be "White" music? Then it is also true that many White people like White music.

A much deeper problem with this line of thinking is that it minimizes the quality of the music and the personal scope of the listener. Rap's biggest paying audience is young White men according to every study I've seen in the past 8 years. If we are to think logically, that then makes Rap "White" music. This also means that when we categorize other forms of music as "White" music, we have denigrated an entire ethnic group (Caucasians) by denying their ability to enjoy, play or originate other forms of music. See what I'm saying here?

If we stop trying to turn people into formulas, and concentrate on providing music of the highest quality, then I can guarantee that we'd see ratings and sales go up. Right now, many Black people who enjoy CCM are not comfortable in admitting it because of the (worldly) perception that they aren't supposed to like it. This not only builds a relational roadblock, but screws with a persons mental state as well. It's tough to be known as the Black person who like "White" music. Many White people feel constrained against listening to a rousing Gospel number with anyone outside of family or close friends for fear of being looked down upon. After all, that "Black" music is for "those" people who live mostly over there.

Amidst these considerations, what about the contributions of our Brown, Red and Yellow brothers and sisters? I have heard peices of music from all over the world which are trully stirring of the soul, or just make the feet tap, and when done in English bring real glory to God.

Good music is good music.

It always makes me smile when I get calls from old Polish ladies (thick accent and all) saying how blessed they were that I would mix in some Gospel choir number amidst the CCM, and when some young Black guys tell me how they like some of the CCM I've introduced them to. I know that a hodge-podge of songs tossed together haphazardly would be a wreck, but with care it can be done!

The format which plays Christian style songs started off on the wrong foot entirely. We are so afraid of sounding like one of the old time AM Christian stations, that we strive to sound and act just like like our secular counterparts. Then when one of these stations is actually successful at competing for market share, we're surprised. We ought to have stations that surprise us if the don't become a contender. We have to stop patterning ourselves after them if we're to offer anything different. Success is at hand, but we refuse to grasp it because we continue to follow the principle that governs secular radio: separate, separate, separate.

"They will know you are my disciples by how you love one another."

It takes a good ear, a discerning and obedient spirit, and talented, faithful workers, but it can be done. The people can be brought together. So-called secular radio for many years followed the pattern which we should be doing now. If it was good, could flow with the set, and most importantly kept the listener tuned in, they played it. Too many of our stations which play music sound just like each other. We need to play a wider variety of music, use developed (and develop) announcers capable of delivering something that is personal which others aren't doing, but still keeping it tight in time and delivery, and a willingness to put a real advertising budget behind it.

We don't though. We keep doing the same old same old and scratching our heads at the lack of response. The old complaint "You can't play The Gaithers next to P.O.D.!" is one that I am sick of hearing because it only serves to reveal the lack of imagination on the part of the speaker. It's common sense that you would be risking a truly bad flow to put Traditional Gospel next to Rock Gospel, and that should be assumed. However, you can have them on the same station or show and do it well.

It's time for us to, as the famous television character of one of my vocal heroes Patrick Stewart would say; "engage". <P ID="signature">______________
~Always leave a hole when you go.
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.OneVoiceNow.Blogspot.com>Are we really one voice?</a></P>
 
"If we stop trying to turn people into formulas, and concentrate on providing music of the highest quality, then I can guarantee that we'd see ratings and sales go up. Right now, many Black people who enjoy CCM are not comfortable in admitting it because of the (worldly) perception that they aren't supposed to like it. This not only builds a relational roadblock, but screws with a persons mental state as well. It's tough to be known as the Black person who like "White" music. Many White people feel constrained against listening to a rousing Gospel number with anyone outside of family or close friends for fear of being looked down upon. After all, that "Black" music is for "those" people who live mostly over there."

That's all I was trying to say. So refreshing to hear something that makes sense. Thank you!
 
Mark LaRoi wrote:
"The difficulty with these statements are many and deep."

"A much deeper problem with this line of thinking is that it minimizes the quality of the music and the personal scope of the listener."

"If we stop trying to turn people into formulas, and concentrate on providing music of the highest quality, then I can guarantee that we'd see ratings and sales go up."

"Good music is good music."

Exactly. And never should it be defined by the color of an artist's skin. Never. Not even on a board. It's divisive to do so, and as you mentioned, alienates many, and minimizes quality.


"You can't play The Gaithers next to P.O.D.!" is one that I am sick of hearing because it only serves to reveal the lack of imagination on the part of the speaker."

Or smart programming according to a station's format. Again, that is a station by station call.

<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Incase you didn't notice E, I didn't leave.

"There has been much discussion that because they do, it
should be ok. And that stations industry wide select music
or pass on music based on the skin color of an artist.
Again, that just seems so wrong. "

YES IT'S WRONG - MY WHOLE POINT EXACTLY!!!!!! That was the whole discussion - it's NOT RIGHT!

"There has been much discussion that because they do, it
should be ok. And that stations industry wide select music
or pass on music based on the skin color of an artist.
Again, that just seems so wrong."

Nobody but you said it was ok, actually you say that when you don't care to find out if it is happening.


" Terms like "Black Gospel" or "White AC" (never heard that
> before, but it would be just as strange) feel forced and
> uncomfortable and I'm under the impression they don't do
> much but cause a dividing line between people and music- a
> line that is drawn based on very primitive thinking."

And you are in radio? I don't think we openly use the term White AC but most perceive it as that including Paragon.

> "I think one post actually went as far as to make an
> assumption that "black people like black music". I'm going
> to go global in my position here, and refute that."

OK "E", do your own test - attend a CeCe Winans/Kirk Franklin Concert
and count the white people. Go to a Steven Curtis Chapman concert
and count the black people (just using Steven's name as an example,
he's the nicest guy!)
The next time you go to a concert, why not look around a bit.
It might wake you up to the real world.
I have to observe it because I have black staff I care about and they feel
peculiar quite often going to some of the CCM concerts, they
actually opt out of being a part of them. Why do you think I care or
brought this up. I've been dealing with it for years. Nicole C. Mullen is an exemption of breaking through the barrier. She manages to wind up on all formats. I saw her pic on some of the Gospel stations I sent you.

I think CHR is probably the only format that doesn't seem to see
race. The concert line ups are also great!
I've been through the other two and the freedom in CHR is
wonderful!

End of discussion.
>

>
>
 
whatzthat wrote:
"In case you didn't notice E, I didn't leave."

And yet, you said you would.


"Nobody but you said it was ok"

I NEVER, NOT ONCE said that.


"I don't think we openly use the term White AC but most perceive it as that including Paragon."

No whatzthat, YOU perceive it as that. You really shouldn't speak for others.
And I never read in Paragon where they used the term "White AC"...please cite your source.


"...attend a CeCe Winans/Kirk Franklin Concert and count the white people. Go to a Steven Curtis Chapman concert and count the black people."

Why on earth would ANYONE do that or want to!?!


"...I have black staff"

Is that how you refer to your employees? Wow. Wow.


"Nicole C. Mullen is an exemption of breaking through the barrier. She manages to wind up on all formats. I saw her pic on some of the Gospel stations I sent you."

Nicole C. Mullen is on the radio because her MUSIC is good. Not because of her skin color. The barrier she broke was the same one thousands of artists attempt to everyday, and it's not the barrier of color.


"End of discussion."

So, now you are leaving?

Seriously...this thread, and the direction you tend to take it, has run it's course.

Cya

<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
> "If we stop trying to turn people into formulas, and
> concentrate on providing music of the highest quality, then
> I can guarantee that we'd see ratings and sales go up. Right
> now, many Black people who enjoy CCM are not comfortable in
> admitting it because of the (worldly) perception that they
> aren't supposed to like it. This not only builds a
> relational roadblock, but screws with a persons mental state
> as well. It's tough to be known as the Black person who like
> "White" music. Many White people feel constrained against
> listening to a rousing Gospel number with anyone outside of
> family or close friends for fear of being looked down upon.
> After all, that "Black" music is for "those" people who live
> mostly over there."
>
> That's all I was trying to say. So refreshing to hear
> something that makes sense. Thank you!
>


guys its not 1965..why are we even having this discussion?? racism is wrong and i dont see it in radio. please guys can we end this...<P ID="signature">______________
note to the NAB..satellite radio..its worth paying for!!</P>
 
> > "If we stop trying to turn people into formulas, and
> > concentrate on providing music of the highest quality,
> then
> > I can guarantee that we'd see ratings and sales go up.
> Right
> > now, many Black people who enjoy CCM are not comfortable
> in
> > admitting it because of the (worldly) perception that they
>
> > aren't supposed to like it. This not only builds a
> > relational roadblock, but screws with a persons mental
> state
> > as well. It's tough to be known as the Black person who
> like
> > "White" music. Many White people feel constrained against
> > listening to a rousing Gospel number with anyone outside
> of
> > family or close friends for fear of being looked down
> upon.
> > After all, that "Black" music is for "those" people who
> live
> > mostly over there."
> >
> > That's all I was trying to say. So refreshing to hear
> > something that makes sense. Thank you!
> >
>
>
> guys its not 1965..why are we even having this discussion??
> racism is wrong and i dont see it in radio. please guys can
> we end this...
>


I think you're not paying attention to the world of radio. I don't mean to say that as an insult to you, but there's been plenty of overtly racist statements made by Howard Stern and others of his ilk, and the Hot (& Tsunami scandal is still having it's effect. If you can't see racism when it makes front page news, are you sure you're suited to make that call? Again, I'm not saying that to start a fight with you, but I don't understand how you can miss it. I'm not talking about the subtle, easily misunderstood things here. Many of those are blown out of proportion.

HOWEVER...

Until I begin to see a rainbow of faces at station promoted concerts, I have to ask "why?" The most upfront and obvious reason is that radio, including "Christian" radio is targeting specific demographics.

Can you honestly tell me you've never seen the "Christian" radio demographic target read at least similar to this:

"White middle class to upper class female, 25 - 54" or something similar?

Check out what your own station lists as its target audience and then I'd love for you to rejoin this conversation (and I hope we'll all keep it conversationally civil) because I believe you honestly care. I've seen yoru posts for a long time and I don't doubt your sincerity.

Just to make it clear: I don't believe that the decision to market demographically was based on an emotional opinion toward an ethnic group. It was made based on money. They said (based on unreliable Arbitron evidence) that the audience was mostly young to middle aged white women, so they marketed to them, bringing in more of the same. No, I don't think it was a decision of emotional hate, but if God hated Esau by mere preference of Jacob over him, well...

How can we define racism? The preference of one ethnic class over others? Any business that markets by demographic is all about that! Some call it good business to focus on the group that has become most attracted to your product.

Me, I'm going for a bigger crowd. I don't want some of them, I want them all. Not so I can make money from them, although I need to make enough to live on, but because it would please the heart of God to see His people come together and try to bring each other together.

Hopefully that makes the situation a little more understandable. <P ID="signature">______________
~Always leave a hole when you go.
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.OneVoiceNow.Blogspot.com>Are we really one voice?</a></P>
 
> I don't think we openly use the term
> White AC but most perceive it as that...

...because that's what the outcome is. So why find fault in Christian AC stations that have "only" a 5% black audience? Heck, seems like that's a terrific outcome for an AC if ya ask me!




> OK "E", do your own test - attend a CeCe Winans/Kirk Franklin Concert
> and count the white people. Go to a Steven Curtis Chapman concert
> and count the black people...

What a bizarre thing to do!



> The next time you go to a concert, why not look around a
> bit.

I do...every time! And what I'm looking most for are the reactions to the songs that are played...you know, things like which ones get the biggest pops, the most wiping of eyes, and the most hand-holding and hugs. Those are actually takeaways of value!


> It might wake you up to the real world.

Oh, it does! I'll never forget this one time I was at a station that didn't want to spend money for its own music testing -- going pretty much by a national monitor of the format, we had backed one of an artist's gold titles down to the lowest category...then, at a concert, that song got the biggest pop at the intro, the most tears, the most held-hands and hugs, and a thirty-second 80+% standing ovation when it was done! Whoa!

And you want to obsess over skin colors in the audience as if there's something you could do with whatever number you come up with! Man, you're wastin' your time!



> I have to observe it because I have black staff I care about
> and they feel peculiar quite often going to some of the CCM
> concerts, they actually opt out of being a part of them. Why
> do you think I care or brought this up.

You "care" about this just to make your staff not feel "peculiar???"

Wow. Really weird!





> I think CHR is probably the only format that doesn't seem to see race.

Sure it does! You're proof!




> I've been through the other two and the freedom in CHR is
> wonderful!

Now, wait a minute! Again, we're back to you doing things top-down! It's all about you!

All three should be doing what the audience wants! It just so happens that CHR most matches what you want, and you wind up being really egocentric and thinking that there's something more noble to the format. Well, nope, it's not more noble, at all! It's just doing nothing more than what its audience wants...same as "the other two." (By the way, "the other two" are really "the other eight," but that's not particularly important right now...)



> End of discussion.

Oh, please...let it be true!!
 
If you don't send me stupid remarks to my comments - it will be the end of the discussion.
To wrap up your comments though, My main goal is not to sit and look at who's white, black, yellow or green in the audience at concerts, I actually hear it quite often from other people of race who want less division at these "gospel" concerts. Sometimes as I am watching the reactions of people at concerts from my seat or on stage, I will begin to look at the age group or the male/female audience the artist is reaching and of course I will also key in on the fact that the audience is mostly white. There is nothing wrong with desiring that diversity would happen. You are the strange one for not caring and yes I do care about my staff. Evidentially you don't have one to care about.
 
>
E says" Exactly. And never should it be defined by the color of an
> artist's skin. Never. Not even on a board. It's divisive to
> do so, and as you mentioned, alienates many, and minimizes
> quality."

Give me a break. You are just too wrapped up in your pretty self to see the situations of others. If you really felt that music shouldn't be defined by color, you would be outraged by the Paragon statistics at the R&R Summit. I know you were at the Summit and I'm sure you were sitting there listening to the statistics by Paragon who said that CCM radio was 95% white. That's where this began, now you don't remember?
I asked you if you were playing Antonio Neal- your reply; "Individual artists are irrelevant to the discussion of the issue. Therefore, I
won't be discussing any artists." You and Neutral Observer sure mentioned quite a few back in the early part of this discussion. You're not playing him, say it. I'd just like to know why? He's just one of many that you probably will not play, which makes my point.
 
Re:

whatzthat wrote:

"E says 'Exactly. And never should it be defined by the color of an artist's skin. Never. Not even on a board. It's divisive to do so, and as you mentioned, alienates many, and minimizes quality.'....You are just too wrapped up in your pretty self to see the situations of others."

Seriously, I thought you were done? These personal slams are getting rather old whatzthat. (but thanks for the attempt at a compliment)


"If you really felt that music shouldn't be defined by color, you would be outraged by the Paragon statistics at the R&R Summit. I know you were at the Summit and I'm sure you were sitting there listening to the statistics by Paragon who said that CCM radio was 95% white."

Again, that is not specifically what the report said.


"I asked you if you were playing Antonio Neal- your reply; 'Individual artists are irrelevant to the discussion of the issue. Therefore, I won't be discussing any artists.' "

Once again, a misquote. I NEVER said that. Although, that's a good reply.



"He's just one of many that you probably will not play, which makes my point."

Listen whatzthat, whatever your "point", you continue to repeat the same cycle of defining artists by factors I will not. Antonio Neal has a great sound, and I know that he is receiving airplay. But WHY that is is based on his SONG, nothing more. Your reasons for citing the artist you have, have always been on every thread the color of their skin. You've done it post after post. I will not.

If that rubs you wrong or sounds to you like "side stepping" I really don't care.

I think it's rather noble and smart. I prefer to hear music with my heart, and not see it with my eyes.

Now, I thought you agreed this discussion was over.
<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
I don't believe music should be coded as black or white, but the reality is, speaking in general terms, certain styles of music skew towards certain groups, be they ethnic, sex,or age. Most of you posting here would probably not be interested in hearing Swing Music, be it Christian or not as that style of music generally skews towards the generation born prior to the Baby Boomers who's group entered the world starting in 1946 - 1965. Now that's not to say that no one born after 1946 doesn't like Big Bands or Swing Music, but most do not (which is why it is harder and harder to find that type of music on the radio, the demo is too old to appeal to advetisers). That is the same with other forms of music, like Urban Gospel vs Country Gospel. Most folks who are in to Urban Gospel are black and most folks who are into Country Gospel are white. So the radio advertisers as well as the stations programmers would realize this and possibly target their spots, public affairs programming, etc towards the largest demo listening to their station. That's not racist or discrimintory. I remember watching "Soul Train" on TV years ago. The spots were ALL aimed at African Americans as they advertised Afro Sheen, JET magazine, etc. Did that mean whites didn't watch? Of course not, but apparently the largest demo watching was black and so the spots targeted that large demo. Watch some romance show on "LifeTime" on cable. Who's the largest demo, women, so the spots tend to target women, not men, yet men do watch.

I believe we've all heard the comments from people "in the world" who will say that 11am Sunday morning is the most segregated time of the week, because whites do not have many if any blacks in their congregations. Again, why are there many prodominately white churches and prodominately black churches has nothing to do with wanting to be segregated. It has more to do with worship style, music, preaching style, etc. Both churches are preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Folks in both churches are just as saved. You will find some whites in black dominated churches who are blessed with that worship style and blacks in white dominated churches who are blessed with that worship style. The same applies to radio. There are whites who listen to Urban Gospel and blacks who listen to Country Gospel, they just aren't the majority of the listeners for that specific format.


> Well...
>
> What a ride.
>
> I'm anticepating a close to the previous thread on "color
> coding".
>
> Feels good to be challenged and even offended a few times,
> in order to strengthen the backbone and be affirmed in good
> solid positions.
>
> Feels great to be able to stand behind every single word
> with my own name. It's like a test of integrity and
> character. Glad to know I'm still who I say I am. :)
>
> I think at one point I was told I lived in "la la land".
> Hmm... sometimes I wouldn't mind visiting, but I wouldn't
> want to live there. :)
>
> But whatzthat did (eventually) cite some stations that do
> indeed define their music by skin color...or at least, they
> use skin color in their positioner or name.
>
> It was refreshing to finally be given examples of that.
>
> Whatever the reason is on why they choose to do that, I
> would say I think it's a bad idea.
>
> That is my opinion, of course, but it just doesn't seem to
> make much sense to me.
>
> There has been much discussion that because they do, it
> should be ok. And that stations industry wide select music
> or pass on music based on the skin color of an artist
> (although, that claim was never substantiated). Again, that
> just seems so wrong.
>
> Either way.
>
> Terms like "Black Gospel" or "White AC" (never heard that
> before, but it would be just as strange) feel forced and
> uncomfortable and I'm under the impression they don't do
> much but cause a dividing line between people and music- a
> line that is drawn based on very primitive thinking.
>
> I think one post actually went as far as to make an
> assumption that "black people like black music". I'm going
> to go global in my position here, and refute that.
>
> People are not skin colors. Music is a lot of things, but
> never "black or white".
>
> Other posts lumped artists together and made the assumption
> all they had in common was the color of their skin. Sad. :(
>
> At one point the "gender card" was even played. Not sure
> what that has to do with the thread, but I will say I'm glad
> I'm a girl. Boys aren't nearly as pretty. (well, some are,
> but I digress...);)
>
> No examples were ever shown of any CCM ACs or CCM CHRs
> passing on an artist because of skin color. So, I'm guessing
> any more attempt to have evidence of that cited will fall on
> deaf ears.
>
> Thanks for the lurkers and posters alike.
>
> :)
> e
>
 
toddinohio wrote:
"When is tribal council so I can cast my vote for who leaves the board?"

LOL!


miss ya todd!
<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Well you don't have to worry about throwing me off :). I'm not getting involved. Too much hostility here for this redhead.:)
 
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