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New Voice, New Choice
- Thread starter jerry367
- Start date
Careful, E. You'll start the "move it to Rochester" movement back up.
No imminent danger of that, Rox. Let's see now: "WWKB, Chili-Rochester...."
Figure about $200K to take WCGR dark. Then, I'd imagine, something like 8 towers, DA-3, 50kw DA-D, 15kw DA-CH, 8kw DA-N....even at 1520 that would require about 30 acres. Soooo....perhaps a mil for the phasor, towers, ATUs and Tx & sample lines and all the copper. Budget maybe $150K in legal fees for NIMBY lawsuits from the good folks living near the proposed site, plus zoning revisions.
Delays in the courts and at the FCC: plan to "invest" maybe 6 to 8 years.
6 years and $2 million minimum to get this done - assuming the citizens of Buffalo don't mount some kind of FCC protest. All for the distinct privilege of feeding the Lake Ontario fish and scraping up maybe a 1.0 share in the key "60-to-dead demo" in Rochester (?)
Yeah....you bet. But only if it starts raining $50 bills on Big Tree Road soon.
Figure about $200K to take WCGR dark. Then, I'd imagine, something like 8 towers, DA-3, 50kw DA-D, 15kw DA-CH, 8kw DA-N....even at 1520 that would require about 30 acres. Soooo....perhaps a mil for the phasor, towers, ATUs and Tx & sample lines and all the copper. Budget maybe $150K in legal fees for NIMBY lawsuits from the good folks living near the proposed site, plus zoning revisions.
Delays in the courts and at the FCC: plan to "invest" maybe 6 to 8 years.
6 years and $2 million minimum to get this done - assuming the citizens of Buffalo don't mount some kind of FCC protest. All for the distinct privilege of feeding the Lake Ontario fish and scraping up maybe a 1.0 share in the key "60-to-dead demo" in Rochester (?)
Yeah....you bet. But only if it starts raining $50 bills on Big Tree Road soon.
It wouldn't take anything close to 8 towers, and could be done without even killing WCGR. All you have to do with a third-adjacent is keep the 25 mV/m contours from overlapping, and since WCGR's 25 probably doesn't even make it to Route 332, CGR can probably stay. (I think it could also slide up the dial to 1560 without much trouble, if it came to that.)
Then you're just moving the existing class A envelope east. Even with some ratcheting involved, you'd probably still be able to pull it off with three towers. (And it would still make no sense to even think about doing it.)
Then you're just moving the existing class A envelope east. Even with some ratcheting involved, you'd probably still be able to pull it off with three towers. (And it would still make no sense to even think about doing it.)
At 50kw the WWKB 25.0 would bulid pretty quickly, Scottso. Unless it was so directional you couldn't hear it in Rush. Could you do it with 3 towers daytime? Possibly, but I don't think you could get good general coverage of the Rochester market with 3 sticks. You'd need tighter control of the pattern than that.
I think my point was: not really practical.
I think my point was: not really practical.
Even with 50 smackeroonies into a nice efficient antenna, WHAM only puts 5.2 mV/m over the Canandaigua post office, at least if you trust Doug Vernier's software (and I do!) Put KB somewhere west of the Genesee and you wouldn't have to be all that directional to avoid WCGR. As for sliding WCGR up to 1560, considering that both it and WFLR are now just nominal primaries for FM translators, it probably doesn't matter much what you do to either AM signal. WFLR could probably go to 1580 now that WEHH has moved. (Or to 1320 
What else would require protection from a western Monroe County site? On the low side, I'm pretty sure WOLF's apps to move to 1510 are long since dead, the nearest 1500s are in Ohio and New Jersey, and the nearest 1490s are WOLF and WGMF, way outside any potential KB 25 contour. On the high side, the closest 1530 I can think of is in Connecticut, there's 1540 in Syracuse and then WCGR. Co-channel, there's Long Island and Greenfield, Mass. and not much else.
Technically, it's actually pretty workable, I think. Politically and practically, it's still a non-starter, for sure!
What else would require protection from a western Monroe County site? On the low side, I'm pretty sure WOLF's apps to move to 1510 are long since dead, the nearest 1500s are in Ohio and New Jersey, and the nearest 1490s are WOLF and WGMF, way outside any potential KB 25 contour. On the high side, the closest 1530 I can think of is in Connecticut, there's 1540 in Syracuse and then WCGR. Co-channel, there's Long Island and Greenfield, Mass. and not much else.
Technically, it's actually pretty workable, I think. Politically and practically, it's still a non-starter, for sure!
Speaking of WHAM why is this station so hard to DX compaired to KB? I would think a non-DA would have the advantage. I know WHAM being on 1180 has that VOA station at the tip of Florida to contend with and all the jamming that it brings but WHAM is weak comparied to the the Buffalo Blowtorch at 1520.
The moniker will probably stay with the station forever or until another format that is piped-in is put there, which ever comes first...
On a semi, or maybe not-so-related note...did the 2003-2006 'KB revival ever make $$?
I'd seen a quip somewhere that it was pulling somewhat respectable ratings (for a music AM) and then after the switch to Progressive Talk, it tanked.
My current station was once owned by Entercom. It was a happy day when we were sold to someone who actually knew what they were doing.
I'd seen a quip somewhere that it was pulling somewhat respectable ratings (for a music AM) and then after the switch to Progressive Talk, it tanked.
My current station was once owned by Entercom. It was a happy day when we were sold to someone who actually knew what they were doing.
B
Bob1370
Guest
"I'd seen a quip somewhere that it (KB) was pulling somewhat respectable ratings (for a music AM) and then after the switch to Progressive Talk, it tanked."
All pretty true. Only Mike Doyle would know whether KB as a classic hits station garnered enough ad revenue to put it in the black. Lots of things, from ratings to demos to the effectiveness of the sales department (and how thinly it's spread over a lot of stations) can affect that. We can say the Arbitron performance of the station was promising enough to show there was potential for profit, if not immediately, then not far down the line. KB as a talker had been buried in under-1-share territory as a satellite talker and business radio station before 2003. Even a brief fling with Howard Stern didn't budge it. As a personality classic hits station, IIRC, it nudged into the 2s about halfway through its run and showed particular strength in the drivetimes (where Danny Neaverth and Hank Nevins, and later, Jack Armstrong, were holding forth). This despite virtually no marketing and promotion--the station built a respectable cume and AQH purely by word of mouth.
If it had gotten even a modicum of marketing and promotional support, and a little more live local content (like afternoon news and traffic) it would have made an even more significant dent in the market and become a viable player in Buffalo like CFZM has in Toronto. Evidently Entercom decided that wasn't enough so they're back to a neglected satellite fed waste of 50,000 watts. It's not so much that progressive talk itself is the cause of the failure, any canned format on that signal would perform as badly or worse. It's lack of live local content and service, competing against other sister stations that do offer more of a full service menu, that keeps it down. The station is basically being run defensively, as a barrier to prevent any adult programming with teeth from providing an effective challenge to sister station WBEN's talk and sister station WGR's sports. It wouldn't be run that way if another company controlled at least one of the full market coverage AMs in the city.
KB is one of the best arguments for partial repeal of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and replacement with laws that reduce the size of a company's maximum allowable cluster in a market. The pre-1996 rules would force Entercom to choose which two of its three full-market-coverage AMs to keep (my guess is it would choose WBEN and WGR) and which one to sell to someone else who could then try to make a go of it.
For everyone's good, what they should do is sell KB, accepting the fact that they've reduced it to little more than stick value and taking the money they'd get (which even at stick value would be in seven figures) to invest in their remaining properties. They can afford a calculated gamble that a new owner of the 1520 facility would make only limited competitive headway, but give Entercom a couple million in extracash for the dubious privilege of trying.
All pretty true. Only Mike Doyle would know whether KB as a classic hits station garnered enough ad revenue to put it in the black. Lots of things, from ratings to demos to the effectiveness of the sales department (and how thinly it's spread over a lot of stations) can affect that. We can say the Arbitron performance of the station was promising enough to show there was potential for profit, if not immediately, then not far down the line. KB as a talker had been buried in under-1-share territory as a satellite talker and business radio station before 2003. Even a brief fling with Howard Stern didn't budge it. As a personality classic hits station, IIRC, it nudged into the 2s about halfway through its run and showed particular strength in the drivetimes (where Danny Neaverth and Hank Nevins, and later, Jack Armstrong, were holding forth). This despite virtually no marketing and promotion--the station built a respectable cume and AQH purely by word of mouth.
If it had gotten even a modicum of marketing and promotional support, and a little more live local content (like afternoon news and traffic) it would have made an even more significant dent in the market and become a viable player in Buffalo like CFZM has in Toronto. Evidently Entercom decided that wasn't enough so they're back to a neglected satellite fed waste of 50,000 watts. It's not so much that progressive talk itself is the cause of the failure, any canned format on that signal would perform as badly or worse. It's lack of live local content and service, competing against other sister stations that do offer more of a full service menu, that keeps it down. The station is basically being run defensively, as a barrier to prevent any adult programming with teeth from providing an effective challenge to sister station WBEN's talk and sister station WGR's sports. It wouldn't be run that way if another company controlled at least one of the full market coverage AMs in the city.
KB is one of the best arguments for partial repeal of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and replacement with laws that reduce the size of a company's maximum allowable cluster in a market. The pre-1996 rules would force Entercom to choose which two of its three full-market-coverage AMs to keep (my guess is it would choose WBEN and WGR) and which one to sell to someone else who could then try to make a go of it.
For everyone's good, what they should do is sell KB, accepting the fact that they've reduced it to little more than stick value and taking the money they'd get (which even at stick value would be in seven figures) to invest in their remaining properties. They can afford a calculated gamble that a new owner of the 1520 facility would make only limited competitive headway, but give Entercom a couple million in extracash for the dubious privilege of trying.
In my perfect world it would be sold to whomever currently owns WKBW-TV (assuming they'd know what to do with it), who would rekindle the revival (if any of the old personalities were still interested) and then exploit the synergies possible between TV and radio. In addition, establish a strong Internet presence to drive at-work listening. Not the easy road but one with a potentially lucrative payoff in the end IMHO.
FWIW CBS is starting to promote its TV O&Os and radio properties working together.
FWIW CBS is starting to promote its TV O&Os and radio properties working together.
chas108 said:
BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA. Do you have any idea of what's going on at WKBW-TV? The place is a nightmare, mired in 3rd place, and managed by a lackey trying to cut enough expenses to please his venture-capitalist masters. "Clueless" would be giving them too much credit.
Bob, let me elaborate on what you said. Sales probably could have been much better for KB with a dedicated sales team that only sold KB. I'm sure faced with selling the more expensive spots on WBEN and some of the higher rated Entercom FM's they did that first and then KB. The sales staff has to believe in the station and it's format.
With some aggressive sales and promotions KB might have done better. Then again they probably didn't want to cut into WBEN. It's a shame to see KB get beaten by WWWS 1400 in the 12+ ratings.
I was one of the first to start checking out the FM dial but as I get older I tend to look for good content. I don't care if it's AM or FM.
With some aggressive sales and promotions KB might have done better. Then again they probably didn't want to cut into WBEN. It's a shame to see KB get beaten by WWWS 1400 in the 12+ ratings.
I was one of the first to start checking out the FM dial but as I get older I tend to look for good content. I don't care if it's AM or FM.
Here we go again with the KB thing. It's damn near impossible to resurrect a legendary station like KB especially after it had assumed room temperature for so many years. Which KB did you want? The 55-63 era KB? The 64-73 era KB? The 74-85 era KB? What we heard was a bad mash-up. Jack Armstrong playing The Everly Brothers. It was interesting for a few weeks and then over. Not because of legendary guys like Danny and Jack, but because it was 2004 and time had passed KB by. Recall the threads on this board regarding the music, jingles and rotations. For the record: Persons 12+: Fall 04 1.3 / Winter 05 1.7 / Spring 05 1.7 / Summer 05 1.6 / Fall 05 1.4. Persons 25-54 don't warrant printing out of respect for the heritage and memory of what KB was when it was the King.
I agree with E9, KB(as we remember it) belongs to yesterday, just like Crystal Beach, the Century Theater, Harvey & Corky Productions and so many other fond memories of yesteryear. If you miss KB, go to the tribute site, http://wkbwradio.com/ - perhaps they should consider soliciting for more KB airchecks - now that would be fun.
SirRoxalot said:
I qualified my remarks to allow for exactly that possibility; not having lived in the market for years. I do drive thru on "the 90" several times a year to visit family in Syracuse. Is 3rd place at least ahead of the NBC affiliate (WGR-TV when I lived there)? If not...that is truly sad.
As for "which 'KB would I want"...a local version of "True Oldies" with jocks who can still make the emotional connection they made back-in-the-day, without attempting to recreate how they sounded back-in-the-day. If you heard how Jack Armstrong sounded at his last live gig in Greensboro, NC (Big Apple Airchecks had the retrospective)...that's what I was thinking. That said, I caught him once during the revival and in contrast to Greensboro, Jack instead sounded like he was trying to recreate 1972, only over Del Shannon's "Runaway". He could still pull it off, of course, but it was just a little weird. "Mash-up" was a good descriptor.
And yes, David Fill's site can always use a few more good airchecks. At least www.rockradioscrapbook.ca has some good stuff.
Sorry Chas I think WGRZ TV 2 out rates WKBW-TV these days.
What year did you leave? I too left when it was still WGR-TV not my choice, parents retired to Florida while I was still a teen. Missed the area a lot in those days and would DX KB to hear what was going on.
What year did you leave? I too left when it was still WGR-TV not my choice, parents retired to Florida while I was still a teen. Missed the area a lot in those days and would DX KB to hear what was going on.
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