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New WILM PD and "morning drive personality"

Under the Hawkins, WILM insisted on full rate card (salespeople would complain about this endlessly!) but tossed in free spots to loyal clients.

WJBR is endlessly into rate cutting; with vastly more costly operations, WDEL & WSTW try to uphold rate.

Sure there are SOME advertisers on both WDEL & WSTW, but WDEL has many, many clients who are not at all on WSTW. You can tell this just from listening. In fact, some of the nation's top news and talk stations have come through the recession better than many F.M. music stations.

By the way, could you cite one top-tier talk station in a Top 100 market (not a station on a graveyard frequency with second- and third-tier nationally syndicated talk-show hosts) which has ELIMINATED traffic in A.M. drive? I can't. More infrequent traffic (every fifteen minutes rather than every ten), yes. Traffic elimination? No.
 
Matt,

What station owner in their right mind would have a full-time news staff of five, two sports reporters, three traffic reporters, two talk show hosts, three production/technicians and a healthy part-time staff (not to mention a PD) if the station weren't selling and/or they were giving their spots away for free??
 
Chris, I respect your loyalty to your station and your pride in your operation. However, your evaded a direct response (affirm or deny) to the question of whether Delmarva sales reps "throw in" spots on AM to clients who buy FM (a practice once known as "salting the log"). Instead you offered a hypothetical.

Hypothetically, in today's market, who "in their right mind" would want to own a radio station? Would a station owner "in their right mind" in today's radio market would operate in a medium market with such a large staff? I know you have listeners who appreciate your work but if you worked for a public company, accountable to investors, they might feel differently.

DX, The way radio works, one day somebody with a morning personality talk show will ditch the traffic reports. The world will continue to spin. Then bunches of other stations will ditch traffic reports and not doing traffic reports in talk shows will be considered obvious truth.
 
Here's another way to look at the question of billing. How much would WDEL make if were a stand alone? It is hard to argue that WDEL would survive if it they were the only station in the DBC Compound.
 
I am not privy to proprietary information, and even if I were, it would not be appropriate to spill it all over this board.

Let's just say that WDEL has dwarfed WILM in revenue for many, many years. And the Hawkins operated WILM at a loss at least from the late 1980's onwards. (With absolutely no sign of improvement over the horizon, they sold WILM to Clear Channel in the new millennium. Surely this past recession would've been the final nail.)

And let's just say WDEL-only clients could fill a ballroom. WDEL is far too loaded with commercial inventory to play games.

And obviously WDEL shares infrastructure, traffic reporters, sales and technical support with sister WSTW (and don't forget Graffiti Radio now!). The support goes in both directions. Peter MacArthur voices short A.M. news briefs on WSTW, for example.

But as I alluded to earlier, a number of 'full-service' news/talk stations have actually fared relatively well during the economic downturn... compared to some F.M. music stations! It comes back to being a vital cog in the community.

It's apples & oranges to compare a family-held company with one of the big publicly-traded companies. For example, many of the big companies have massive debt service from their acquisition orgy; some of the family-owned media companies do not.

I'm not sure a publicly-traded company is the best business model for local broadcasting anyway.

If I worked for a national broadcast company, I'd want to work for Bonneville International, owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints --- the Mormons. Look at their exemplary stations, like Washington's WTOP; Salt Lake City's KSL; and Seattle's KIRO. The Mormons expect a return from their broadcast operations, but they pursued a different business model, a model which allowed WTOP to crush Washington's ABC-owned, WMAL.

...which brings us to the question of stand-alone. It may be a question just for the sake of argument.

Other than Pittsburgh's KQV (tied to a family newspaper), give me one other news-intensive station in a reasonably sized market which DOESN'T have sister stations. (Chicago's WGN doesn't has a sister radio station, but it does have WGN TV 9, plus The TRIBUNE, admittedly in bankruptcy chaos, but NOT because of WGN.)

And not mentioned here is WDEL's aggressive presence on the web... an Edward R. Murrow award-winning site which builds more content and revenue by the year, recession or no.
 
Mike: I don't know these people as you do. I don't think the issue is how nice they are personally. Just what works or doesn't work on the air. Given all the posts I've seen including personal attacks on people in radio on these boards, I'd just as soon leave personal character (good or bad) out of the discussion. Radio is both a business and a performance art and anyone's work is subject to fair comment (understanding that comment on someone's work is not a reflection on their character).

Matt, you'll notice that I rarely comment on John Watson's show, and then only to say it's on WILM, but I just don't discuss his show in terms of its quality, his style, etc on these blogs. I did on this thread and it was a negative review, but as I like and respect John, I felt I needed to add those personal notes, because it's a distasteful thing to say a negative rating on someone's work that I personally know, like, and respect. So yes I'd agree with you, whether or not the person is a likable person off air isn't important to our discussion, but I felt I needed to say it anyhow.
 
MikefromDelaware said:
Matt, you'll notice that I rarely comment on John Watson's show, and then only to say it's on WILM, but I just don't discuss his show in terms of its quality, his style, etc on these blogs. I did on this thread and it was a negative review, but as I like and respect John, I felt I needed to add those personal notes, because it's a distasteful thing to say a negative rating on someone's work that I personally know, like, and respect. So yes I'd agree with you, whether or not the person is a likable person off air isn't important to our discussion, but I felt I needed to say it anyhow.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. You got me thinking about the difference between how your describe on-air Watson and off-air Watson. Maybe his current and former program directors are (at least partly) at fault. Either they allowed him to develop some bad habits on the air or they encouraged the kind of on-air behavior you found distasteful. Unfortunately in much of the industry, rudeness and even meanness are standard and even seen as good for ratings.
 
Sorry, Matt. You're right. I didn't directly answer the question because I figured people could do the math.

In order to support the largest broadcast staff in Delaware, commercials on WDEL are not "thrown in" for free on WSTW buys. In fact, we don't even give away our Internet commercials.

I don't work on the sales side, but it's my understanding that WDEL is mainly sold seperately from WSTW. Are there combo buys? Absolutely. But I have been told over the years by sales managers and account executives that they do not give WDEL spots away, and we have made goal and budget every month this year.

And although we are not a public company, we are still accountable to our owners and board of directors. Just because we're not public doesn't mean they want to or can lose money.
 
Chris, do not even waste your time with these people. One, getting rid of traffic has got to be the dumbest thing I have heard in a long time. Matt, it is clear you work for a want to be radio station just on the internet ( Which did not work in the first state ) KYW the biggest and best!! lives and dies with traffic on the 2's and is the biggest seller!!! WDEL, the Best in Delaware, lives and dies with traffic watch on the 9's, and I am sure is a huge seller!!!!!! Two, WDEL and WSTW can and DO STAND ALONE, so there would be no need at ALL to give away spots. Clear Channel is probably giving away family members just to get people to advertise. My Point is, Clear Channel is selling all of the stations in one package and they still can not do it.
 
DX. You are right. There are not many stand alone AM stations in a single market. Other than the ones you have named, I can only think of one more, and that would be WOR in New York City. Talked to a banker in Philadelphia recently, who got information from an outfit called Miller Kaplan, who ranks and audits the advertising billing from radio stations for broadcasters, and he said the stations in Wilmington rank in this order. 1. WSTW , 2. WJBR , 3. WDEL, 4.WXCY, 5.WDSD , 6. KISS FM, 7. WILM, 8.1290 The Ticket, 9. Faith AM, 10. Radio La Sabrosa(?). I can't even begin to guess what the last three bottom feeders bill annually, but if I were to give it may best guess I would have WSTW at $7 million, $WJBR at 5 million, WDEL at $3 million, WXCY at 2.8 million, WDSD at about $2.7 million, Kiss at 1 million and WILM at $500,000. So, to turn the lights on at WDEL and to pay the staff and run, what is with out a doubt the best medium market AM station in the county, I would think you are looking at close to $2.5 million per annum. I would think the owners would be happy with $500,000 in their pockets, from WDEL alone. And remember, the profit margins at WSTW would even be greater, as your expenses are much lower. Do good, be well, and happy.
 
Matt, something all of us should remember, radio personalities have lives outside of their radio show. I remember reading about one of the WAMS jocks from the time I was a teen ( I forget his name now), but he was a Classical Music fan, but made his living playing Top 40 Rock and Roll for us kids, probably some of the others were in to Big Band music as they were adults and their teen years were during the 1940's, but rather than play Glenn Miller or Benny Goodman, they played the Beatles and the Dave Clark 5. DJ's work at a radio station, they play what they are paid to play ( whatever the format calls for). A talk show host might put on a certain persona on air, but be very different off air.

So even with a person like Rick Jensen at WDEL, who for my ear, is an obnoxious off the chart right winger most of the time, who tries to sound hip, probably is a very different person off air. He may still be an off the chart right winger, but I bet Mr. Jensen has a life besides trashing anyone who's not a conservative member of the GOP. Just like anyone else who works in radio as well as in industry. When you leave work, you leave behind that work and do other stuff. My guess is, Rick is a good neighbor and I'd probably like him and even get along well with him, as long as we didn't discuss politics (I don't know Jensen so this is only a guess).

Rush Limbaugh is an example. I am not a fan, but I prefer him over most other right wing talkers (Laura Ingraham on WDEL at night I think is a bit better, if I have to listen to a conservative bash libs and Dems). However, my point about Limbaugh is, when elRushbo married wife #4 ( I have no clue what her name is), he hired Elton John to do the music at the wedding reception. Now, Elton is about as liberal as you can get, but as Rush did explain on his show one day, this isn't about politics, I wanted good music and Elton John is one of the best, and I can afford to hire the best, so I did. I wonder how many of his ditto heads were upset that Rush put politics aside and hired Mr. John, because he plays great music, even if they both are on opposite sides on every political issue? Rush's after hours life, probably is different than the persona he projects at the EIB.
 
People often forget that top 40 stations, at least 6am to 7pm, had a mostly adult audience (in what we now call the money demos). They couldn't have sold spots during the day if their listeners were in school. I had a chance to listen to some airchecks from "back in the day" a while ago and the daytime jock patter, the spots, the contests were clearly targeting adults - housewives and people at work. Group W stations like WBZ and KDKA were as "full service" as then middle of the road stations like WDEL or WCAU - only with a top 40 playlist. Now things did change after 7pm and some harder rock cuts were added to the playlist but a lot of people who grew up with swing bands liked rock (people were even doing the same dances through the first several years of the rock era as they did to swing bands).

People who love music (and early personality DJs who programmed their own stuff loved music first, radio second) often love a wide range of musical genres. Benny Goodman was a trained classical clarinetist who often performed with symphony orchestras, in addition to being the King of Swing.

El Rushbo was a top 40 DJ. I've heard airchecks and he did pretty much the act he does now, only now he takes calls and rants instead of playing records.

But I've often suspected that talk show hosts don't believe any of the !@#$ they dish out. The station plays top 40; they play top 40. The station does right-wing talk; they do right wing talk. If progressive talk ever caught on, a lot of these right-wing talkers would switch teams without blinking.
 
Geta Vansestern (sp) on Fox comes to mind. She originally was on CNN, and all of a sudden she's a conservative talking head on Fox.
 
In fairness to Greta Van Susteren, she has mostly filled the role as a legal analyst, hasn't she, on highly publicized cases? So it's not at all clear if she intentionally changed her ideology.

Agreed that many talk-show hosts change their spots depending on what advances their careers.
(Although in Limbaugh's case, let's remember he comes from a family of arch-conservatives, many judges or in the legal profession around Cape Girardeau, Missouri.)

But, let's remember... it seems a disproportionate number of talk-show hosts were once jocks, not newspeople (although some have been both!)

I've heard the theory that some veered conservative out of life experiences in radio (being in radio, some made very little money, and hated to see what they were paying in taxes; and, rightly or wrongly, some of them - white guys, which is the majority of them - felt wronged by affirmative action, EOE, and the FCC's rules!).

Few comment on the point that some of these guys, as jocks, "pushed the envelope" when it came to sexual innuendo, etc.; now, they embrace a movement which includes the Christian Right. (I'm sure many would respond that they embrace the libertarian strand of conservatism!).

In the Wilmington market, it would seem the three major talk show hosts (Jensen, Mascitti, Watson) say what they believe, and are not using Wilmington as a "stepping stone" to a bigger market. Therefore, relative candor.
 
But, let's remember... it seems a disproportionate number of talk-show hosts were once jocks, not newspeople (although some have been both!)

I've heard the theory that some veered conservative out of life experiences in radio (being in radio, some made very little money, and hated to see what they were paying in taxes; and, rightly or wrongly, some of them - white guys, which is the majority of them - felt wronged by affirmative action, EOE, and the FCC's rules!).

Many conservatives in industry, who are blue collar also felt wronged by affirmative action, EOE as they as "evil white European males" have been pushed aside where many companies in the Fortune 500 would have hiring sprees where ONLY women and minorities need apply. So as radio has paralleled industry, that in many respects is why the Tea Party movement is so popular with white guys.

As far at jocks becoming talk show hosts. Sure, as they aged, they no longer were the desired person to jock to that younger audience, so they became talkers for that older demo and kept their career in radio going. Sort of like folks in industry who learn new things so they can move into the new areas that their respective company is getting into, so that they as older employees don't become passe'.
 
I've heard the theory that some veered conservative out of life experiences in radio (being in radio, some made very little money, and hated to see what they were paying in taxes; and, rightly or wrongly, some of them - white guys, which is the majority of them - felt wronged by affirmative action, EOE, and the FCC's rules!).
Click to expand...

If you look at the pathetic number of minority on-air radio people on non-minority formats, then and now, that last one is utterly bogus.
 
A lot more women on the air now, even on the networks as news anchors, even network TV news. Listen to CBS radio news, NPR news, and many of the local stations. In some cases a woman gets the promotion to drive time news and she's not the best voice or anchor over some guy who's far more experienced, has the voice, etc, etc, but EOE. Don't misunderstand me, many are excellent ( I'm not going to name specific names), but they generally have less seniority and pass many guys who have been there far longer due to EOE ( it works that way also for industry). So those guys passed by probably don't see it as positively as some other folks would.

Now in terms of ethnic minorities, you do make a good point. However, the same question could be asked about minority owned stations or minority owned businesses. Do they hire white news folks and jocks, or in the case of a minority owned business do they have to hire a % of white employees? Does EOE work in reverse in those cases? I truly don't know the answer to that question. It may, but then again it may not.
 
Considering the new WILM morning show has made its debut - 6---9 a.m. - maybe it's time to return to the original theme of these posts, and critique the show.
 
Listened today to Elliott in the Morning on my way up from the Eastern Shore. The show sounded fine, and I am sure it will get better as the programming department fine tunes it in the weeks to come. Some thoughts. WILM has a real problem with their demo. From the sound of the callers, the median age is 83. WDEL has a much hipper sound, and younger hosts help them in the 25-54 money demo. WDEL's production and on air presentation is much superior. I think they have designated producers. Listening to WILM, I get the impression that the news anchor answers the phone. I don't think Valerie Knight and John Watson have ever gone from the 9 am news to local talk without botching it up. Someone needs to teach them how to use the 7 second delay. Clear Channel does have the advantaqge of many national programming tools that can help the sound local. The sports guy might originate from Akron, but with technology, can banter back and forth with Bruce, giving it a live and local feel. They can also report on local teams. The traffic reports also sound much better on WDEL. They guy on WILM always sounds rushed, and in his defense, I am sure he has another six stations that he has to report on. WILM still has a serious sales problem. They're way too may psa's and pi's during prime time programming. Stations like WILM and WDEL need seperate sales teams. That's the only way to maximize the sales effort. Plus with so many young sales people, the news/talk station is simply an after thought. They would much rather sell the hip station that plays Taylor Swift. Finally, I do like the fact that they simulcast with WDOV in the morning. This gives them two thirds of the state. Do good, be well and happy.
 
I listened to Elliot in the Morning, both yesterday and today. Today was better than yesterday. The sounder for traffic/weather is rather loud and brassy ( a big band with heavy metal guitars wailing away) which is fine as long as they pot it down enough so you can actually hear the traffic and weather. Yesterday it was too loud, today, just right.

I called and talked with Bruce Elliot off air, after his show yesterday and did suggest potting down the sounder (since no one apparently caught on to the volume during the entire show), which they apparently did today. I also mentioned that until they get more actual spots why play so many PSA's each half hour as they take up a sizable part of the half hour ( I heard the Smokey THE Bear PSA at least 4 or 5 times during the time I was tuned in). Bruce explained that WDOV has different spots that WILM and so WILM fills PSA's while WDOV is airing local spots. So apparently WDOV sells better than WILM, that's a sad commentary. One thing Bruce could do to make it a better experience for the WILM listeners, rather than air all those PSA's while WDOV has a real spot break, why not do another story that you have timed out to fit that time space. I remember a CBS radio news show years ago doing something like that. Some stations would break away for a spot break, while they were gone, for those who were still there the anchor would read another story timed to end a few seconds before the others would rejoin the broadcast, you'd hear a click sound then he'd go on to the next story. Granted it's more work and effort for Bruce, but it would make listening to WILM during his show much more enjoyable and might hold some of his audience longer.

I'm surprised that the CC Delaware sales department hasn't sold that morning block as a "statewide network" show for bigger statewide clients (like banks, WaWa's, DART, News Journal, etc, that would be heard on both WILM/WDOV), with local avails for smaller local customers like a Dover Dunkin Donut's or an Manhatten Bagel shop on Concord Pike, etc, to air on their respective local station.

As far as the actual show, I believe it can work with some tweaking. The basic lineup for the show seems to be: Fox news on the hour, then traffic/weather on the 5's, then Phil Feliciangeli (sp) from Dover doing local Delaware News, Bruce chatting with Phil about some story, Bruce promoting an upcoming interview later in the hour or later in the show, more traffic/weather, not to mention the spots/PSA's interspersed in this mix quite often. Then sports with Allan Krackal (sp) (by the way, he's in Wilmington), Bruce chats with Allan about a sports story, a Wall Street Journal Report, Kim Kommando, or a similar featurette, traffic/weather, Bruce may have an unusual story that he shares and comments just prior to the bottom of the half hour. Then Fox news and the second half hour essentially repeats that format with different stories or a short interview to comment on by Bruce. Bruce did have a few interesting interviews this morning. The problem though is he has such a short time and he ended up cutting off one person after he asked the guest a question ( I guess he looked up at the clock and realized he had to cut to Fox news on the half hour).

Bruce seems rushed as he's got to say quickly what he's going to say (my guess is that he's has a news story he wants to discuss and is talking off the top of his head so he's trying to think what he wants to say and say it in an intelligent way, but unlike a talk show where the host has a decent amount of time to prattle on to make his/her point (a monologue) Bruce only has a minute or two, because of the strict traffic/weather on the 5's (WDEL has a similar problem with their traffic on the 9's during their morning or afternoon news block which messes up many of Allan Loudell's interviews in PM drive - many of Allan's interviews are interesting and sort of get cut short for traffic-spots).

One major difference I noted in WILM's traffic report vs WDEL's is some of the WILM reports are pre-recorded and reused, so maybe they'd be better to not air traffic every 10 minutes. The problem with pre-recording the weather or traffic is if the person giving the info says something that sticks out then when you rehear that report you know it's not live due to that weird phrase or word that was used or a glitch or stumbling over a word and they re-stumble over the same word exactly the same way 10 minutes later. The weather doesn't change in 10 minutes, but the traffic sure could and if you're listening for more than 10 minutes it seems like why bother if you're going to play the same report again. But as Porky Hooton pointed out the traffic net guy probably has a bunch of other stations he's also giving reports to, where WDEL's traffic only has WDEL and WSTW (I was surprised that Delmarva didn't use the same traffic reporters on WXTU, but they don't at least for the Wilmington traffic).

I think Elliot in the Morning can be successful, but it's a very tight format that doesn't allow Bruce to really do what he apparently likes to do, comment and discuss with listeners the issues of the day. If it were me, I'd cut back the traffic/weather from every 10 minutes to every 15 minutes, :05, :20, :35, :50. I believe that would help the flow of the show to be less chopped up. Bruce's unusual stories or interviews do make the show more interesting than just the news. My guess is,
the show will flow better with time as Bruce, Phil, and Allan get used to the new format. I wonder who's running the board, hopefully not Bruce as he seems to have plenty to do now, possibly Valarie.

Now the $64,000 question, will CC Delaware promote the show on via their many billboards around the state?

If Bruce gets to tweak the show so it flows and seems lessed rushed, and choppy, etc, his show could give WDEL's Peter McArthur and Melanie Armstrong's morning news show some serious competition. I guess time will tell.
 
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