Nice Quote

[dbdigital]

I didn't want to "muddy up" the great Tom Ray's discussion on HD-Radio any more then it has been with attacks on DE's opinions, however well-deserved these attacks may be.

But I really liked this quote from radio host Bob Morgan concerning the reaction from listeners to his show on KCAA, San Bernadino:

"Another thing I'm discovering. With all the talk of HD and audio quality these days, if you play the hits people grew up with, and give them a decent presentation, they honestly don't care whether it's AM or FM. I'm talking about baby boomers here, not the techie generation…I know the researchers and consultants would like to pretend they're dead, but they're very much alive and responding to the show”.

http://www.thebobmorganshow.com/

Say what you will about the 50+ generation but they listen (to AM, no less), they buy and their growing. Any advertiser or ad agency who thinks otherwise is losing out.

db

 

[davideduardo]

I didn't want to "muddy up" Tom Ray's discussion on HD-Radio any more then it has been with attacks on DE's opinions, however well-deserved these attacks may be.

But I really liked this quote from radio host Bob Morgan concerning the reaction from listeners to his show on KCAA, San Bernadino:

"Another thing I'm discovering. With all the talk of HD and audio quality these days, if you play the hits people grew up with, and give them a decent presentation, they honestly don't care whether it's AM or FM. I'm talking about baby boomers here, not the techie generation…I know the researchers and consultants would like to pretend they're dead, but they're very much alive and responding to the show”.

http://www.thebobmorganshow.com/

Say what you will about the 50+ generation but they listen (to AM, no less), they buy and their growing. Any advertiser or ad agency who thinks otherwise, does so to their extinction.

db

The point to remember is that the last group to grow up on AM music is now in its late 50's. Anyone younger will not use AM for music no matter how good it is, just like teens fled to FM in the 70's for CHR, disco, etc. Once they left, they never came back.

Agencies are simply messengers for their clients. And the clients specify the demos for their products or services. The reason 55+ is not bought is that the return on investment is not good in upper demos... costs more to create a sale than the profit on the sale. Companies like P&G spend hundreds of millions on research on their products to determine where they have sales potential and the cost of sale.

 

[clouseau]

I didn't want to "muddy up" the great Tom Ray's discussion on HD-Radio any more then it has been with attacks on DE's opinions, however well-deserved these attacks may be.

But I really liked this quote from radio host Bob Morgan concerning the reaction from listeners to his show on KCAA, San Bernadino:

"Another thing I'm discovering. With all the talk of HD and audio quality these days, if you play the hits people grew up with, and give them a decent presentation, they honestly don't care whether it's AM or FM. I'm talking about baby boomers here, not the techie generation…I know the researchers and consultants would like to pretend they're dead, but they're very much alive and responding to the show”.

http://www.thebobmorganshow.com/

Say what you will about the 50+ generation but they listen (to AM, no less), they buy and their growing. Any advertiser or ad agency who thinks otherwise is losing out.

db

Hey DB. Thanks for starting this thread and moving it outside of the Tom Rey thread. I have been hesitant to get involved in this discussion, because Tom is basically speaking my position on HD. Or should I rather say that I have been speaking his. He truly understands the ins and outs. He drove the van for Pete's sake. I also love that he works for Buckley. Long ago and far away, a news director gave me an internship at a Buckley station. It turned into a nice little job and cemented a love for radio that I will never lose.

On to your topic. And that of WGILradio. Sadly, we as listeners are our own worst enemy as far as what is on the radio. Let me explain. "Most of us" and I use that term because we "ALL" belong to the set of listeners, would rather hear one of our favorite 24 songs than something deeper in "Our Playlist".

The older you get, the more this is true. Keep in mind I am talking the "Average" listener here.

So "Theoretically" if you listen in the car for 30 minutes to and from work, the best way for me (A Programmer) to get you to listen for the "WHOLE" 30 minutes is to play nothing but your favorite songs in that 30 minutes.

Now this seems "REALLY" simplistic, but it basically works. Sure there's a burn factor. But there's also a reason why you are never more than 3 songs from an "A". 30 minutes to work. 30 minutes going home. 5 commutes a week. Any programmers here have a problem with a 10.0 TSL???

Now we can all agree this is a BS way to program a radio station. I know I thought my station was too tight. But guess what. Over time, cume (Number of people tuning in per week) stayed pretty constant. But depending on how much tighter the playlist got, TSL (Time Spent Listening) actually went UP! That's because (Overall) people don't change the station unless they find something they "HATE". THis is where the "53 minutes of continous music" was born. (Along with the 7 minute stopset.)

IOW, we as listeners actually REWARD radio stations for playing the same stuff over and over. Trust me. If there were better ratings to be had by not doing it, radio wouldn't do it. If I had that answer I'd be in a single digit market, not a 3 digit market.

I guess my point here is that "David is not the enemy". Neither am I.

Show us how to get better ratings and we'll follow. (Not better ratings from YOU, but better ratings from Jo and JoAnne Average and their kids) Y'know.. The Arbitron Folks.

I've been ripped here for "Assuming" I know what people want. I think overall I have a pretty good idea how to get better ratings. However, I would ask the "Prospective PDs" one question...

Why wouldn't a guy who is selling his company for 20 "BILLION" dollars not take a chance on you if you had a better idea???

ANSWER. Lowry Mays has been there. He's done that. And you DON"T have a better idea.

Me either. Is that another "A" I hear?

Clouseau

Corporate radio is all about new ideas. And better ratings. And better sales.

 

[dbdigital]

I didn't want to "muddy up" the great Tom Ray's discussion on HD-Radio any more then it has been with attacks on DE's opinions, however well-deserved these attacks may be.

But I really liked this quote from radio host Bob Morgan concerning the reaction from listeners to his show on KCAA, San Bernadino:

"Another thing I'm discovering. With all the talk of HD and audio quality these days, if you play the hits people grew up with, and give them a decent presentation, they honestly don't care whether it's AM or FM. I'm talking about baby boomers here, not the techie generation…I know the researchers and consultants would like to pretend they're dead, but they're very much alive and responding to the show”.

http://www.thebobmorganshow.com/

Say what you will about the 50+ generation but they listen (to AM, no less), they buy and their growing. Any advertiser or ad agency who thinks otherwise is losing out.

db

Hey DB. Thanks for starting this thread and moving it outside of the Tom Rey thread. I have been hesitant to get involved in this discussion, because Tom is basically speaking my position on HD. Or should I rather say that I have been speaking his. He truly understands the ins and outs. He drove the van for Pete's sake. I also love that he works for Buckley. Long ago and far away, a news director gave me an internship at a Buckley station. It turned into a nice little job and cemented a love for radio that I will never lose.

On to your topic. And that of WGILradio. Sadly, we as listeners are our own worst enemy as far as what is on the radio. Let me explain. "Most of us" and I use that term because we "ALL" belong to the set of listeners, would rather hear one of our favorite 24 songs than something deeper in "Our Playlist".

The older you get, the more this is true. Keep in mind I am talking the "Average" listener here.

So "Theoretically" if you listen in the car for 30 minutes to and from work, the best way for me (A Programmer) to get you to listen for the "WHOLE" 30 minutes is to play nothing but your favorite songs in that 30 minutes.

Now this seems "REALLY" simplistic, but it basically works. Sure there's a burn factor. But there's also a reason why you are never more than 3 songs from an "A". 30 minutes to work. 30 minutes going home. 5 commutes a week. Any programmers here have a problem with a 10.0 TSL???

Now we can all agree this is a BS way to program a radio station. I know I thought my station was too tight. But guess what. Over time, cume (Number of people tuning in per week) stayed pretty constant. But depending on how much tighter the playlist got, TSL (Time Spent Listening) actually went UP! That's because (Overall) people don't change the station unless they find something they "HATE". THis is where the "53 minutes of continous music" was born. (Along with the 7 minute stopset.)

IOW, we as listeners actually REWARD radio stations for playing the same stuff over and over. Trust me. If there were better ratings to be had by not doing it, radio wouldn't do it. If I had that answer I'd be in a single digit market, not a 3 digit market.

I guess my point here is that "David is not the enemy". Neither am I.

Show us how to get better ratings and we'll follow. (Not better ratings from YOU, but better ratings from Jo and JoAnne Average and their kids) Y'know.. The Arbitron Folks.

I've been ripped here for "Assuming" I know what people want. I think overall I have a pretty good idea how to get better ratings. However, I would ask the "Prospective PDs" one question...

Why wouldn't a guy who is selling his company for 20 "BILLION" dollars not take a chance on you if you had a better idea???

ANSWER. Lowry Mays has been there. He's done that. And you DON"T have a better idea.

Me either. Is that another "A" I hear?

Clouseau

Corporate radio is all about new ideas. And better ratings. And better sales.

The trouble is, clouseau, you and I are on two very different highways on this issue. You talk about reaching a mass quantity of listeners, I talk of programming for certain under-served populations of listeners. You talk of programming for the masses, I talk of niche programming. You say HD-Radio will bring niche programming with extra channels, I say that if the FCC and broadcasters had been doing the right thing by serving the public (instead of exclusively advertisers) to begin with, we wouldn't need HD-R's extra channels to make up for this lack. Like I said, in L.A., we have a half dozen FM stations playing Urban. Why?

Now, I'm not so stupid as to proclaim that I'm right and you're wrong (especially since I've never owned or programmed a radio station, I work in television) but I will say that we just see the issue of programming from two very different perspectives.

db

 

[davideduardo]

I say that if the FCC and broadcasters had been doing the right thing by serving the public (instead of exclusively advertisers) to begin with, we wouldn't need HD-R's extra channels to make up for this lack.

The FCC has noting to do with formats,

And stations, to get ad revenue, must serve listeners with what they want, or there would be no audience to offer to advertisers. You may not be aware that ad rates are pretty much established by audience size. HD-2 simply offers the cance for second tier formats that are not big enough to justify putting on a main channel.

Like I said, in L.A., we have a half dozen FM stations playing Urban. Why?

We have one real urban station, Stevie Wonder's KJLH. We have one hip hop station that leans Black, KDAY. We have a mostly Hispanic hip hop and rythmic station, Power 106. We have one r&b oldies station, KRBV. That is five, in five different formats aimed at five different audience groups. Not six.

But, whether it is five or six (I am guessing you are wrongly including KXOL as an "urban" station) is irrelvant. Stations go for the largest audience segment they think they can attract. If the field becomes too crowded, one or more stations change format. Otherwise, we would still have MOR on five or 6 stations. And three or four Top 40 stations.

The fact is that there are only a couple of cases of a single format being on more than one station in the market... like Indie and KROQ, and one can safely argue that Indie is not a lot like KROQ.

 

[PocketRadio]

The point to remember is that the last group to grow up on AM music is now in its late 50's. Anyone younger will not use AM for music no matter how good it is, just like teens fled to FM in the 70's for CHR, disco, etc. Once they left, they never came back.

Agencies are simply messengers for their clients. And the clients specify the demos for their products or services. The reason 55+ is not bought is that the return on investment is not good in upper demos... costs more to create a sale than the profit on the sale. Companies like P&G spend hundreds of millions on research on their products to determine where they have sales potential and the cost of sale.

Not true - I am at the tail-end of the baby-boomers, certainly not in my late fifties, but I grew up on the Classic Rock of the 1960's and listen to nighttime AM, especially to WABC's Saturday Night Oldies:

"Musicradio 77 WABC - The Greatest Top Forty Music Radio Station of All Time!"

http://www.musicradio77.com/

Take a good look at the extensive message board - nothing like killing off a piece of history with AM-HD. And now, teens have fled FM for iPods, cell phones, Satellite Radio, the Internet, and gaming systems are are not looking back. Just wait, until Mobile Pandora, Slacker, and other "personalized" music services takeoff.

 

[R.F. Burns]

The point to remember is that the last group to grow up on AM music is now in its late 50's. Anyone younger will not use AM for music no matter how good it is, just like teens fled to FM in the 70's for CHR, disco, etc. Once they left, they never came back.

Agencies are simply messengers for their clients. And the clients specify the demos for their products or services. The reason 55+ is not bought is that the return on investment is not good in upper demos... costs more to create a sale than the profit on the sale. Companies like P&G spend hundreds of millions on research on their products to determine where they have sales potential and the cost of sale.

Not true - I am at the tail-end of the baby-boomers, certainly not in my late fifties, but I grew up on the Classic Rock of the 1960's and listen to nighttime AM, especially to WABC's Saturday Night Oldies:

"Musicradio 77 WABC - The Greatest Top Forty Music Radio Station of All Time!"

http://www.musicradio77.com/

Take a good look at the extensive message board - nothing like killing off a piece of history with AM-HD. And now, teens have fled FM for iPods, cell phones, Satellite Radio, the Internet, and gaming systems are are not looking back. Just wait, until Mobile Pandora, Slacker, and other "personalized" music services takeoff.

Saturday Night Oldies? That's WABC in name only. By the way it's broadcast in HD. You want to listen to WABC, do it over the internet without all the noise and fading and lousy analog AM audio.. No one under the age of 50 is listening to shows like that anyway. Teenagers don't listen to AM radio and they certainly don't listen to Mark Simone and WABC. That station has an audience that's basically 45+ tilting towards the 60 to death demographic. WABC hasn't sounded like the old WABC since the NSRC mask was introduced. I demo'd my B.A. which I brought to a friends home over the weekend. he's about 35 or 40 miles from NYC. using the supplied dipole for FM reception brought in all the major NYC HD FM facilities cleanly. On AM I use a Radio Shack loop and with it I waas able to receive all of the NY AM HD stations. he was surprised to hear the wine noise which is caused by nearby TV sets and other electronic devices, disapppear when the radio switched to HD mode. All of a sudden, there was high end to the audio and the noise floor dropped to silence as opposed to the typical carrier sound one hears even on strong AM signals.

 

[johneb2johneb2]

I didn't want to "muddy up" the great Tom Ray's discussion on HD-Radio any more then it has been with attacks on DE's opinions, however well-deserved these attacks may be.

But I really liked this quote from radio host Bob Morgan concerning the reaction from listeners to his show on KCAA, San Bernadino:

"Another thing I'm discovering. With all the talk of HD and audio quality these days, if you play the hits people grew up with, and give them a decent presentation, they honestly don't care whether it's AM or FM. I'm talking about baby boomers here, not the techie generation…I know the researchers and consultants would like to pretend they're dead, but they're very much alive and responding to the show”.

http://www.thebobmorganshow.com/

Say what you will about the 50+ generation but they listen (to AM, no less), they buy and their growing. Any advertiser or ad agency who thinks otherwise is losing out.

db

I agree with what you are saying, and am in the 50+ generation. I recently purchased the HD100 radio for one reason; it offered me a type of music that I grew up and listened to that was no longer available on the standard channels. Had that type of music been available on standard AM or FM, I can honestly say I would not have even considered it.
John E B, just an average listener!

 

[R.F. Burns]

I didn't want to "muddy up" the great Tom Ray's discussion on HD-Radio any more then it has been with attacks on DE's opinions, however well-deserved these attacks may be.

But I really liked this quote from radio host Bob Morgan concerning the reaction from listeners to his show on KCAA, San Bernadino:

"Another thing I'm discovering. With all the talk of HD and audio quality these days, if you play the hits people grew up with, and give them a decent presentation, they honestly don't care whether it's AM or FM. I'm talking about baby boomers here, not the techie generation…I know the researchers and consultants would like to pretend they're dead, but they're very much alive and responding to the show”.

http://www.thebobmorganshow.com/

Say what you will about the 50+ generation but they listen (to AM, no less), they buy and their growing. Any advertiser or ad agency who thinks otherwise is losing out.

db

I agree with what you are saying, and am in the 50+ generation. I recently purchased the HD100 radio for one reason; it offered me a type of music that I grew up and listened to that was no longer available on the standard channels. Had that type of music been available on standard AM or FM, I can honestly say I would not have even considered it.
John E B, just an average listener!

Broadcast radio is a mass market device. A station can not afford to program to the few instead of the many. Both satellites together have nowhere near the audience numbers of standard terrestrial radio stations. XM & Sirius program for the few and you see where it's gotten them. If you are looking for programing for the few, look at the non commercial radio segment on FM. In any decent size market these stations will play the most obscure music in many formats that a commercial facility would never touch. We who work in major markets, where the vast majority of listeners live, are working for multi million dollar facilities who live by the whims of agency buys. Small mom & Pop buys don't account for much income relatively speaking. Many of these smaller businesses can't afford to advertise on a large radio station. Some of these smaller buys take place on a stations seperate internet feed. While some in here may not like to read this, these are the facts and broadcast radio is a business not a hobby. People who work in the industry don't leave their shifts to go to their real jobs so that they can support their family. Comparing radio to an I-pod is like comparing radio to a walkman. The I-Pod is just another playback device. It is not an alternative to radio because it can not do what radio does. maybe kids without any community roots listen to their I-pods but most adults who own I-Pods don't forget radio because of it. Radio is an information source. I-Pods are not. As today's children age and purchse homes and have greater ties to their communities, radio willl be there to provide immediate information which at this time no other free mobile device can do.

 

[clouseau]

The trouble is, clouseau, you and I are on two very different highways on this issue. You talk about reaching a mass quantity of listeners, I talk of programming for certain under-served populations of listeners. You talk of programming for the masses, I talk of niche programming.

I hear and understand what you are saying, but the knife cuts both ways. Demographics play a part in this, but lets leave them out of it for now and just talk actualy persons.

If "Urban Station #3" were to decide to program "Traditional Jazz" (As an example) I would assume the "audience" would get smaller because if it were bigger as a JAZZ station than as the #3 Urban Station, they'd already BE a jazz station. But let's say they changed. We "Fixed" the lack of service problem for the Jazz listeners. But we said "Screw You" to the larger group of "Urban Station #3's listeners. Unless you expect them to settle for Urban Station 1,2 4 or 5. Then "THEY say radio sucks because there's no choice and it all sounds the same.

You say HD-Radio will bring niche programming with extra channels, I say that if the FCC and broadcasters had been doing the right thing by serving the public (instead of exclusively advertisers) to begin with, we wouldn't need HD-R's extra channels to make up for this lack. Like I said, in L.A., we have a half dozen FM stations playing Urban. Why?

Because people there want to listen to it. It's not a black thing or a city thing. It's a "Number's" thing.

Now, I'm not so stupid as to proclaim that I'm right and you're wrong (especially since I've never owned or programmed a radio station, I work in television) but I will say that we just see the issue of programming from two very different perspectives.

I agree with that. I'm having real trouble with what happened to the listeners of Urban Station #3, though. Did they just "Get Assimilated"?

Clouseau

 

[dbdigital]

The trouble is, clouseau, you and I are on two very different highways on this issue. You talk about reaching a mass quantity of listeners, I talk of programming for certain under-served populations of listeners. You talk of programming for the masses, I talk of niche programming.

I hear and understand what you are saying, but the knife cuts both ways. Demographics play a part in this, but lets leave them out of it for now and just talk actualy persons.

If "Urban Station #3" were to decide to program "Traditional Jazz" (As an example) I would assume the "audience" would get smaller because if it were bigger as a JAZZ station than as the #3 Urban Station, they'd already BE a jazz station. But let's say they changed. We "Fixed" the lack of service problem for the Jazz listeners. But we said "Screw You" to the larger group of "Urban Station #3's listeners. Unless you expect them to settle for Urban Station 1,2 4 or 5. Then "THEY say radio sucks because there's no choice and it all sounds the same.

You say HD-Radio will bring niche programming with extra channels, I say that if the FCC and broadcasters had been doing the right thing by serving the public (instead of exclusively advertisers) to begin with, we wouldn't need HD-R's extra channels to make up for this lack. Like I said, in L.A., we have a half dozen FM stations playing Urban. Why?

Because people there want to listen to it. It's not a black thing or a city thing. It's a "Number's" thing.

Now, I'm not so stupid as to proclaim that I'm right and you're wrong (especially since I've never owned or programmed a radio station, I work in television) but I will say that we just see the issue of programming from two very different perspectives.

I agree with that. I'm having real trouble with what happened to the listeners of Urban Station #3, though. Did they just "Get Assimilated"?

Clouseau

You're assuming that listeners to Urban #3 are listening only to that station. But it is just as likely that they are listening to more than one station, since more than one is available (and, as you know, all it takes is a block of commercials or a least favorite song and, at the touch of a button, a listener is on to another station). If Urban #6 (the lowest rated at #29) went away, the few listeners it had would likely be distributed among Urban 1,2,3,4 and 5. I would hardly consider having five stations to choose from all broadcasting the same or similar formats as 'settling' or that the audience is being 'screwed.'

But in the process the station that was Urban #6 is picking up a whole new audience; whether it's jazz, adult standards, "Boss Radio" or a variation of oldies. How many is hard to say but I can tell you that the station would "own" that audience.

Frankly, I don't think radio or advertisers have ever done a study on the 50+ market to know whether it has potential or not. They seem to be content to just accept the conventional wisdom.

A good friend of mine who is a freelance writer, used to work for AARP's magazine, Modern Maturity, back in the early 80's when they were just starting to sell advertising. They were told the very same cliche, no advertiser wants the 50+ market. At first, the sales force had a hard time but they armed themselves with some very good stats on the spending power and growth of the 50+ market, created a very effective presentation (which I helped them produce) and offered incentives and discounts to potential advertisers. Slowly they won over their targeted advertisers and sold ad space. In time, AARP's magazine and newspaper was generating millions of dollars in ad revenue with each issue. That is still the case today. And most of the advertisers who started with them, stayed with them.

True, we're talking about a nationwide readership of 33 million but the potential for radio in this age bracket is just as tremendous. Contact Maturity Magazines Group and ask to see some stats on the 50+ market. I think you'll be amazed.

BTW, I'm well aware that the FCC doesn't regulate formats, they abdicated that responsibility years ago.

db

 

[R.F. Burns]

The trouble is, clouseau, you and I are on two very different highways on this issue. You talk about reaching a mass quantity of listeners, I talk of programming for certain under-served populations of listeners. You talk of programming for the masses, I talk of niche programming.

I hear and understand what you are saying, but the knife cuts both ways. Demographics play a part in this, but lets leave them out of it for now and just talk actualy persons.

If "Urban Station #3" were to decide to program "Traditional Jazz" (As an example) I would assume the "audience" would get smaller because if it were bigger as a JAZZ station than as the #3 Urban Station, they'd already BE a jazz station. But let's say they changed. We "Fixed" the lack of service problem for the Jazz listeners. But we said "Screw You" to the larger group of "Urban Station #3's listeners. Unless you expect them to settle for Urban Station 1,2 4 or 5. Then "THEY say radio sucks because there's no choice and it all sounds the same.

You say HD-Radio will bring niche programming with extra channels, I say that if the FCC and broadcasters had been doing the right thing by serving the public (instead of exclusively advertisers) to begin with, we wouldn't need HD-R's extra channels to make up for this lack. Like I said, in L.A., we have a half dozen FM stations playing Urban. Why?

Because people there want to listen to it. It's not a black thing or a city thing. It's a "Number's" thing.

Now, I'm not so stupid as to proclaim that I'm right and you're wrong (especially since I've never owned or programmed a radio station, I work in television) but I will say that we just see the issue of programming from two very different perspectives.

I agree with that. I'm having real trouble with what happened to the listeners of Urban Station #3, though. Did they just "Get Assimilated"?

Clouseau

You're assuming that listeners to Urban #3 are listening only to that station. But it is just as likely that they are listening to more than one station, since more than one is available (and, as you know, all it takes is a block of commercials or a least favorite song and, at the touch of a button, a listener is on to another station). If Urban #6 (the lowest rated at #29) went away, the few listeners it had would likely be distributed among Urban 1,2,3,4 and 5. I would hardly consider having five stations to choose from all broadcasting the same or similar formats as 'settling' or that the audience is being 'screwed.'

But in the process the station that was Urban #6 is picking up a whole new audience; whether it's jazz, adult standards, "Boss Radio" or a variation of oldies. How many is hard to say but I can tell you that the station would "own" that audience.

Frankly, I don't think radio or advertisers have ever done a study on the 50+ market to know whether it has potential or not. They seem to be content to just accept the conventional wisdom.

A good friend of mine who is a freelance writer, used to work for AARP's magazine, Modern Maturity, back in the early 80's when they were just starting to sell advertising. They were told the very same cliche, no advertiser wants the 50+ market. At first, the sales force had a hard time but they armed themselves with some very good stats on the spending power and growth of the 50+ market, created a very effective presentation (which I helped them produce) and offered incentives and discounts to potential advertisers. Slowly they won over their targeted advertisers and sold ad space. In time, AARP's magazine and newspaper was generating millions of dollars in ad revenue with each issue. That is still the case today. And most of the advertisers who started with them, stayed with them.

True, we're talking about a nationwide readership of 33 million but the potential for radio in this age bracket is just as tremendous. Contact Maturity Magazines Group and ask to see some stats on the 50+ market. I think you'll be amazed.

BTW, I'm well aware that the FCC doesn't regulate formats, they abdicated that responsibility years ago.

db

in our lifetime when did the FCC mandate formats? the probklem is that agencies won't buy 55+. Don't believe it? Maybe you should place a call to some of the agency people. I'm sure David has agency numbers which you can call to filll you in on what the advertising reality is today. WABC in NY is one of the more successful stations numbers wise but their billing is low because their audience is elderly and agencies don't want old.

 

[davideduardo]

Frankly, I don't think radio or advertisers have ever done a study on the 50+ market to know whether it has potential or not. They seem to be content to just accept the conventional wisdom.

Major advertisers do research on the consumers of their products constantly. Among the things often studied are both the appeal of the product by demos (age, sex, ethnicity, lifestyle groups, etc.) and the effectiveness of advertising to different groups. What is commonly found is that, while 55+ may buy many advertised products, getting the group to change from one product to another may take more advertising than the profit on the sale can "finance" and so there is a low or no return on investment. So they don't target 55+ because there is no profit to be had.

A good friend of mine who is a freelance writer, used to work for AARP's magazine, Modern Maturity, back in the early 80's when they were just starting to sell advertising. They were told the very same cliche, no advertiser wants the 50+ market. At first, the sales force had a hard time but they armed themselves with some very good stats on the spending power and growth of the 50+ market, created a very effective presentation (which I helped them produce) and offered incentives and discounts to potential advertisers. Slowly they won over their targeted advertisers and sold ad space. In time, AARP's magazine and newspaper was generating millions of dollars in ad revenue with each issue. That is still the case today. And most of the advertisers who started with them, stayed with them.

If you look at the magazine, most of the ads are for senior medications, health plans, and retirement communities and such. The medications can only use print, due to the disclaimer requirements, and the health plans have too much copy and tables... often they have tear-outs for information. The retirement communities need "appetite appeal" (pictures) and are not radio opportunities, either. This is the same sort of thing as sustains much of newspaper display space: price item ads with lots of copy and pictures; they don't work on radio.

True, we're talking about a nationwide readership of 33 million but the potential for radio in this age bracket is just as tremendous. Contact Maturity Magazines Group and ask to see some stats on the 50+ market. I think you'll be amazed.

Advertisers already have research on consumers. That's why the routinely do not target 55+, especially on radio.

BTW, I'm well aware that the FCC doesn't regulate formats, they abdicated that responsibility years ago.

They never had that authority. At most, they required percentages of news and public affairs, but did not regulate formats. Ever.

 

[clouseau]

You're assuming that listeners to Urban #3 are listening only to that station. But it is just as likely that they are listening to more than one station, since more than one is available (and, as you know, all it takes is a block of commercials or a least favorite song and, at the touch of a button, a listener is on to another station). If Urban #6 (the lowest rated at #29) went away, the few listeners it had would likely be distributed among Urban 1,2,3,4 and 5.

I didn't assign "Ratings weight" to the station numbers, but we certainly can. What leads us to think that station #6 hasn't considered the new format?? Either they can make more money doin what they're doing.... Or they really WANT to do what they're doing. Either way, who are WE to dictate to them? We're dancing up to a sliperry slope here...

I would hardly consider having five stations to choose from all broadcasting the same or similar formats as 'settling' or that the audience is being 'screwed.'

I would tend to agree, but I'm not an "urban music" listener. And the P1 people who are station #6's are getting screwed. We're proposing a subjective judgement here. Jazz or Boss Radio is more important than Urban Station #6. Or more profitable. Or more popular. If there is a better plan for station #6 then pitch it to them. Thee's a whole army or people doing that now. They're called consultants.

In the process the station that was Urban #6 is picking up a whole new audience; whether it's jazz, adult standards, "Boss Radio" or a variation of oldies. How many is hard to say but I can tell you that the station would "own" that audience.

Actually they'd have to build it. But it would be theirs.

Frankly, I don't think radio or advertisers have ever done a study on the 50+ market to know whether it has potential or not. They seem to be content to just accept the conventional wisdom.

I'm not so sure about that. Advertising is pretty well studied to death in an ongoing basis. And there are significant behavioural issues that change with age.

A good friend of mine who is a freelance writer, used to work for AARP's magazine, Modern Maturity, back in the early 80's when they were just starting to sell advertising. They were told the very same cliche, no advertiser wants the 50+ market. At first, the sales force had a hard time but they armed themselves with some very good stats on the spending power and growth of the 50+ market, created a very effective presentation (which I helped them produce) and offered incentives and discounts to potential advertisers. Slowly they won over their targeted advertisers and sold ad space. In time, AARP's magazine and newspaper was generating millions of dollars in ad revenue with each issue. That is still the case today. And most of the advertisers who started with them, stayed with them.

True, we're talking about a nationwide readership of 33 million but the potential for radio in this age bracket is just as tremendous. Contact Maturity Magazines Group and ask to see some stats on the 50+ market. I think you'll be amazed.

I'm not arguing there is not "Some Money" out there. But you'll never sell Beer, Soda, Most cars, Ipods, New Rims, Most Day Spas, Snow Mobiles, Most motorcycles, etc...
There's much greener pastures as Urban #6. (Apparently)

BTW, I'm well aware that the FCC doesn't regulate formats, they abdicated that responsibility years ago.

db

As well they should have, IMHO.

Keep in mind, too, that the radio industry is always looking for something that works better. Don't forget Jammin' Oldies, Free FM, Jack, Air America, and a Chicago boss radio (Sort of) with Landecker.(Or was it Lujack).

The're going with what works.

Clouseau

 

[dbdigital]

If you look at the magazine, most of the ads are for senior medications, health plans, and retirement communities and such.

As well as ads for food, travel, cars and alcohol...gee, the very things adults of any age use. This isn't a matter of what works visually verses radio, this is an ageist mindset that needs to end.

db

 

[R.F. Burns]

If you look at the magazine, most of the ads are for senior medications, health plans, and retirement communities and such.

As well as ads for food, travel, cars and alcohol...gee, the very things adults of any age use. This isn't a matter of what works visually verses radio, this is an ageist mindset that needs to end.

db

The issue is that agencies believe that it is easier to get younger people who don't have brand loyalty to switch then older people. That's what they believe and that is why they spend thei money on younger demos. It has nothing to do with how much money a group has, it's all about brand loyalty and how much easier it is to convince the younger group to respond to advertising.

 

[radiopilot]

If you look at the magazine, most of the ads are for senior medications, health plans, and retirement communities and such.

As well as ads for food, travel, cars and alcohol...gee, the very things adults of any age use. This isn't a matter of what works visually verses radio, this is an ageist mindset that needs to end.

db

The issue is that agencies believe that it is easier to get younger people who don't have brand loyalty to switch then older people. That's what they believe and that is why they spend thei money on younger demos. It has nothing to do with how much money a group has, it's all about brand loyalty and how much easier it is to convince the younger group to respond to advertising.

You mean the younger and younger people not listening to radio anymore, how can they get those ads to those younger people on Ipods, and the internet?

No wonder internet advertisment now leads radio for revenue dollars.

Radiopilot

 

[clouseau]

You mean the younger and younger people not listening to radio anymore, how can they get those ads to those younger people on Ipods, and the internet?

No wonder internet advertisment now leads radio for revenue dollars.

Radiopilot

Anecdotally, advertising does not have much of any effect in many categories - At least for my family.

You can advertise Coke in every stopset and give it away. I'll still buy Pepsi.

I laugh my Backside off at the Clydesdales playing football. But I'll still be havng a Miller Lite.

Did I mention that Mac and PC are really Funny? I have six computers. All PC's. I doubt I'll ever buy a Mac.

I don't know advertising all that well. But there seems to be a shread of truth in it to me.

YMMV

Clouseau

Officially out of the demo.

 

[davideduardo]

If you look at the magazine, most of the ads are for senior medications, health plans, and retirement communities and such.

As well as ads for food, travel, cars and alcohol...gee, the very things adults of any age use. This isn't a matter of what works visually verses radio, this is an ageist mindset that needs to end.

Most of the ads are text heavy and are pring-only.

There is no mindset; there is research on return on investment for advertising. Plenty of stations deliver huge 55+ audiences, but no clients ask their agencies to buy for that demo.