Nielsen Issues DMCA Takedown Notice to Wikipedia over DMA Listings

[tripinva]

Apparently, Nielsen sent a DMCA takedown notice to Wikipedia over its use of DMA rankings in listings of TV stations. This is evidenced by the recent disappearance of anything and everything referencing Nielsen markets from all TV stations.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think Nielsen has a legitimate case here. I'm running through my thoughts of the various types of intellectual property and I don't think it's any of them:

- They publish is on their website, so it's not a trade secret
- As long as the name "Nielsen" is not used, it can't be trademark infringement
- Information is not patentable
- Copyright only covers expression of ideas, and not the ideas themselves. Since nobody's copying and pasting Nielsen's list, only using the information contained in it.

Unless there's some other argument that I'm not aware of. Granted, I'm basing this on an intellectual property course I'm in right now, plus a healthy daily dose of Slashdot for the last several years, but can anyone explain how they justify this?

I ask mainly because I'm concerned about my own site. I would hate to have to investigate another method of listing stations. I can think of ways to do it, but none are as easy as what I've got going now.

- Trip

 

[Markxxx]

WOW TRIP LOL

I just logged in to Wikipedia and found out, then was gonna post this, but you beat me too it. You're good man.

Too bad you can head up the FCC

I understand your points, but Nielsen is claiming (whether it holds up or not) that the TV markets have NO STANDING what-so-ever to anyone other than the people who subscribe to their rating service.

Indeed the FCC uses the markets since they are there but even the FCC has no official designated markets, it just uses them because Nielsen is the only game in town and Nielsen allows them to.

As for your website, yeah Nielsen could make a fuss over it. What would happen is Nielsen would scare you by sending you an email, a cease order. If you do not change it, what they'd do is then try to pressure whoever hosts your website. If that doesn't work, then they may or may not sue you.

Wikipedia is HUGE and it's highly unlikely that Nielsen would target your site unless it gets too big.

The long and the short of it is Nielsen will threaten but that doesn't mean they're right, sometimes it's not worth fighting. Even if you win, a large company can sue you into the ground.

Here's more on the Wikipedia article

http://tinyurl.com/nielsentvmarkets

(Go to the bottom or click on number 75. If you're a member of Wikipedia, you can contribute your feelings there)

 

[tripinva]

My rationale is this: during the digital transition, stations were told they had to sign on by a certain date based on market size. Stations in the top 10 markets had to be on by a certain date, etc. If a station does not subscribe to Nielsen, and thus does not have rights to data to figure out what market they're in, then how could the FCC enforce their rules? How could the station be held accountable? There's no law saying stations have to give money to Nielsen, and any such law would get laughed out of court.

- Trip

 

[Markxxx]

The FCC uses Nielsen's markets because they are convenient. Nielsen allows the FCC to use it's markets. So there is no violation of copyright.

The FCC could've said "all stations in the Top Ten most populas states," it's up to them

You're 100% correct no one says you have to subscribe to Nielsen. No one, not even Nielsen has ever said their surveys are even accurate. It's just an agreement the TV stations, TV networks and advertisers have agreed to. Nielsen never has claimed to be a scientific poll.

Let's look at it like this, Nielsen says "We are going to create a list, it's our list."

Because it's Nielsen's list and it has no meaning to anyone who subscribes to Nielsen it can't be used unless Nielsen says so. Nielsen's markets have become a defacto grouping but officially they aren't

Now you can't copyright facts. This is why a TV movie of the week could run a story on OJ Simpson and not pay him, as long as they soley stuck to the fact as reported in the newspapers.

WMAQ-TV is in the Chicago Nielsen TV market. That is a fact. I can put this on my website, I can state it here, I can go to Wikipedia and put it in a sentence saying so. You can't copyright facts.

So why you could say WMAQ-TV is in Chicago Nielsen TV market, because it's a fact, you can't USE The list to organize your data.

You see the difference. By saying WMAQ-TV is in Nielsen Media's #3 Market Chicago, you're just stating a fact. You're not USING the list in any way. In fact publishing the ranking would be fine, cause you're just stating a fact.

But when you USE that list to organize your website (or any website or data table), what you're doing is using a list Nielsen developed for your own use without their permission.

-------->

Now I am not saying I agree with Nielsen, I don't, I think it's a stupid thing to do. I agree with you Trip, but I'm just trying to show you how Nielsen is looking at. If you agree or disagree with them, that is up to you, but that is Nielsen's line of reasoning.

As for your personal website, it's cool, I like it and use it. Don't worry about it, and don't change it. They don't just sue you, they send you a note telling you to stop first, then you can figure out what to do.

 

[tripinva]

So... I can see the fact, but I can't use the fact for anything useful? I'm not arguing with you, I know you're just saying what their rationale is, but does that make any sense to anybody? How can one limit how a fact is used when it's out in the public like the DMA list?

- Trip

 

[Markxxx]

Oh I hear you and I agree with everything you say, it's stupid of Nielsen to go this far.
I will miss the lists on Wikipedia. Heck Nielsen could even be wrong, however the only way we'll know who is right is if Wikipedia fought back, which they said they aren't going to.

They'll have to think of another way of grouping lists, like by Metro Area. You're the guy who knows all about markets and TV stations perhaps this is a time for you to go to Wikipedia and suggest alternative ways of making grouping lists.

I tell you one time some company sent me an email demanding I remove my bad review from Amazon. I told them, if they don't like my review take it up with Amazon. The problem was, that my bad review was coming up in a Google search, before the company website. They made a camera click device.

Anyway they threatened to sue me, I said, "I'm entitled to my opinion so sue me, or take it up with Amazon." I never heard from them, the company obviously thought their company could bully me. The review still is up but now if you do a Google Search the company website comes up BEFORE my bad review, so they got better links to their website and drove up their position.

So see you don't have to be right, just have enough lawyers to scare you or to sue you into submission

 

[KeithE4]

I'd use census data combined with stations' coverage maps as published on the FCC website. That should very close to how Neilsen & Arbitron define their markets without infringing on their copyrights and business methods. Of course, maybe that's how they do it, at least in part.

And since that info is a matter of public record, paid for by We The People, there isn't squat that Neilsen or Arbitron could do about it.

 

[azumanga]

They'll have to think of another way of grouping lists, like by Metro Area.

The trouble is that there are more metro areas (and even micropolitan areas) than Neilsen DMAs. The Seattle DMA, for example, has ten metro areas.

I'd use census data combined with stations' coverage maps as published on the FCC website. That should very close to how Neilsen & Arbitron define their markets without infringing on their copyrights and business methods.

A better way would be to not even mention market rankings or DMAs, just the main metro area. And if a community is in the same market but not the same metro area (such as Bellingham, in the Seattle DMA but in its own metro), include it anyway. The best solution would be to leave Neilsen and its rankings out of this.

 

[KML0224]

So will they sue me when I say Hartford/New Haven is the 29th largest TV market? (LOL)

 

[Markxxx]

So will they sue me when I say Hartford/New Haven is the 29th largest TV market? (LOL)

No you can say that because it's a fact and you can't copyright facts.

But Wikipedia isn't just stating a fact. They are using a list Nielsen has made up to categorize their data (in this case it's TV stations).

 

[stationi]

I like the way Wikipedia now list a few markets.

For Toledo it is...

"Television Stations viewable in Northwestern Ohio/Metro Toledo
(or within 60 miles/100 km of Downtown Toledo)"

And then for the markets use this list here....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

----------

What's outrageous is that these television market ranking are the standard in the industry. For example, WNBC is the NBC affiliate for the New York market. When you buy syndicated content for your station, you get exclusive use for that television market. When you go to the FCC to buy a second station in an area they check to see if they are in the same television market.

 

[rch66]

Can't they just duck the DMA reference by organizing it by service area? For example, the market XYZ with TV stations ABCD have legal right over service in these counties.... Then organize a list ranked by # of TV HH of service area

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas
About the MSA, its not the same.

For Philadelphia it includes Cecil County MD, mainly because Elkton is the largest town and is technically closer to Philly than Baltimore and probably has significant connect economically with Wilmington and Newark than with Baltimore, except for the commonality with Annapolis. However, the rural areas further west - Philly FM and TV isn't as strong, and its still in the state of MD. Its by Nielsen's standards in the Baltimore DMA. The motels in Elkton which use Dish Network/DirecTV carry WJZ, WMAR and WBAL, not the Philly stations. On the other hand, Lehigh Valley and a few other counties are not considered part of Philadelphia's MSA but it is part of the Nielsen DMA for Philadelphia.

 

[wncc]

Don't the "must carry" rules enacted by congress overwrite Nielsen's claim?

 

[Markxxx]

It's my understanding that Nielsen ALLOWS the FCC to use their lists. Nielsen will not ALLOW Wikipedia to use it.

I see how frustrating it is because Nielsen IS the defacto standard but it legally has no force. Tomorrow the FCC could just change their rules and make up their own markets.

It's like eBay says it's not a monopoly. And it isn't. Anyone can start an online auction website. But eBay is what's termed as an "effective" monopoly, in that it's so popular, other online auctions can't compete, because you have to have buyers to get sellers to your site. And sellers don't want to waste time listing on a site with no buyers. Buyers don't want to waste their time looking at sites with no seller. Classic "catch-22"

Wikipedia can create their own lists so long as the list isnt a duplicate of Nielsen's list with just the title changed.

 

[jal41]

The lists of the stations were created by Wikipedia users, not Neilsen.

There were no Neilsen ratings (the revenue generator for Nielsen) on Wikipedia. It seems the issue is the DMA numbers. Nielsen must be short on cash or someone must really have been in a bad mood that day.

If Neilsen sued, the case would be thrown out of court faster than a piece of furniture could be thrown. The Wikimedia Foundation (a non-profit) probably does not have the cash to fight even the littlest issue, which could become probablematic down the road if someone bigger does sue them.

It sounds like if someone writes something bad about you, or someone steals your copyright, all you have to do is send a nice lawyer letter their way, and it will be taken down.

 

[mleach]

It sounds like if someone writes something bad about you, or someone steals your copyright, all you have to do is send a nice lawyer letter their way, and it will be taken down.

That is IF one can find a lawyer willing to get involved.

About five years ago I had a friend of mine who did the morning show at a local AM station not far from me. One day his market's local media website, the webmaster mentioned on his site that not only did my friend have bipolar disorder ( totally false ) but his marriage lasted only 3 weeks ( that one was true ). There were also some other "personal-none of our business" stuff posted about him on that site as well. He contacted the webmaster and demand him to take down all this infomation ( the webmaster claimed he didn't have too "free speech" ). He then contacted every lawyer in town and all of them pretty much told him they will not get involved ( again they didn't want to take away one's right to "free speech" ). It was only when the owner of his radio station and the other radio & TV stations in the market got together and went after that site when all this personal stuff about him was finally taken down.

 

[azumanga]

What about libel?

 

[mleach]

What about libel?

True he could have sued for that but the problem is that the guy who ran the site was disabled and he wouldn't had received a dime had he sued. Actually this is the reason why I believe companies like Neilsen and sites like Wikipedia, You Tube and the others...rare does the "little guy" get sued.

Say for example some teenager from Indiana decides to put up a Madonna video on You Tube. Madonna sees it and gets the clip removed. Of course from a legal standpoint Madonna could get You Tube to track down the user who had uploaded her video and Madonna could sue that teenager. But what would she gain? Bad press saying that Madonna would sue a "fan"? The press would eat her alive !!

Its better to sue the "big guys" !!!

 

[mjlarochelle]

Both Nielsen and BBM Canada are hyper-protective of their data, and I can never understand why. It's just statistics, what harm does it do to release this to the public? The bizarre thing with BBM Canada is that all their ratings books for the past ten years, for every radio and TV market, are readily available. All you have to do is walk into the library at Ryerson University in Toronto and it's there. There is a warning on each book though saying use of the data carries a $1 million fine. They make all this hulabaloo about protecting the data from unauthorized users, and yet it is so easy to obtain.

 

[tripinva]

My site has implemented a new ranking system, which is a work in progress. Markets will move and change until I get everything hammered out, but it mixes census data with distance from antenna sites and station coverage areas. Once it's complete, I'll be safe.

- Trip