Nighttime skywave service outdated?

[rbrucecarter]

Just tell that to Hurricane Katrina refugees around the country, who rely on WWL skywave at night for information. This is a graphic illustration of why nighttime skywave is NOT outdated, and offers a valuable service to citizens. If we sacrifice nighttime skywave so big city stations can run IBOC at night and receive a miniscule boost in ratings, it will never be restored. And people who rely on it will suffer.

OK, lets let WCBS and KRVN test IBOC at night and jam vital information for people who have already suffered enough.

 

[John_U]

> Just tell that to Hurricane Katrina refugees around the
> country, who rely on WWL skywave at night for information.
> This is a graphic illustration of why nighttime skywave is
> NOT outdated, and offers a valuable service to citizens. If
> we sacrifice nighttime skywave so big city stations can run
> IBOC at night and receive a miniscule boost in ratings, it
> will never be restored. And people who rely on it will
> suffer.
>
> OK, lets let WCBS and KRVN test IBOC at night and jam vital
> information for people who have already suffered enough.
>
Hi,

Now is it possible that when all stations are broadcasting AM IBOC at night, that while AM DX would be next to impossible, digital DX using the IBOC signal might be better? Don't know, just asking.

John

 

[rbrucecarter]

> Now is it possible that when all stations are broadcasting
> AM IBOC at night, that while AM DX would be next to
> impossible, digital DX using the IBOC signal might be
> better? Don't know, just asking.

I can clearly hear the lower digital sideband of 620 KMKI over 300 miles away (the upper is obliterated). As soon as IBOC radios are in the $50 range (like THAT will happen anytime soon), I will try some IBOC DX. I asked on this board one time about "what if" you can only get one sideband. The responses ranged from "I don't know" to "degraded mono only". So I assume that some degree of DX will be possible if one sideband is available. IF that created a perfect mono, even at reduced bitrate at 300 plus miles - I would be impressed. But - I am constrained to point out that there was a vastly superior stereo technology available for AM that was supplanted by this kludgey digital system. It produced 10 kHz stereo signals at 300 miles, plus a bit of heterodyne whistle from a 630 over 100 miles away. There was a small degree of noise, but the system worked day and night, and didn't interfere with any adjacent stations.

Almost noise free stereo vs. mono with reduced bitrate at 300 miles out. Your pick. I know which one I prefer.

 

[John_U]

>
> Almost noise free stereo vs. mono with reduced bitrate at
> 300 miles out. Your pick. I know which one I prefer.
>
Personally I would prefer DRM and, just like TV, mandate a cutoff of analog AM.

John

 

[westlife]

> Almost noise free stereo vs. mono with reduced bitrate at
> 300 miles out. Your pick. I know which one I prefer.

With second-generation Motorola C-Quam decoding and AMAX receiver technology, analog AM Stereo can do even better than that. How about full stereo over 460-mile skywave DX, on the first adjacent channel of a local 50,000-watt clear channel station transmitting only 28 miles away? AM IBOC can't do that... probably even DRM can't do that... but C-Quam AM Stereo can! Listen for yourself:

<a target="_blank" href=http://www.amstereo.audio-stream.net/amstereo/files/stations/North-America/USA/Michigan/wjrflash.mp3>http://www.amstereo.audio-stream.net/amstereo/files/stations/North-America/USA/Michigan/wjrflash.mp3</a>
<P ID="signature">______________

</P>

 

[bp37918]

Back in the good old days I remember listening to WLS and I was getting them in stereo and I live in East Tenn. But will all the daytimers getting low power at night I can't do that now.

> > Almost noise free stereo vs. mono with reduced bitrate at
> > 300 miles out. Your pick. I know which one I prefer.
>
> With second-generation Motorola C-Quam decoding and AMAX
> receiver technology, analog AM Stereo can do even better
> than that. How about full stereo over 460-mile skywave DX,
> on the first adjacent channel of a local 50,000-watt clear
> channel station transmitting only 28 miles away? AM IBOC
> can't do that... probably even DRM can't do that... but
> C-Quam AM Stereo can! Listen for yourself:
>
http://www.amstereo.audio-stream.net/ams> tereo/files/stations/North-America/USA/Michigan/wjrflash.mp3
>

 

[THEInsultant]

> >
> > Almost noise free stereo vs. mono with reduced bitrate at
> > 300 miles out. Your pick. I know which one I prefer.
> >
> Personally I would prefer DRM and, just like TV, mandate a
> cutoff of analog AM.
>
> John
>

Yes.. Here's a thought! Just make radios with IBOC-FM and DRM-AM if the radio will be a digital one. Manufactures thing AM is a stepchild anyway, so if it's just something they have to do so they can sell FM IBOC, they will. After about 6 years or so of getting radios in the hands of the public, stations can CHOOSE to go DRM. Music stations would be well served to make the switch earlier. If people could get decent audio quality, I contend more people would listen to AM music stations, even IF not everyone had a compatible radio. AM listership is so far down, with a few spoken-word exceptions, that there is little place for it to go but up.

<P ID="signature">______________
--- THE Insultant ---</P>

 

[rbrucecarter]

> Yes.. Here's a thought! Just make radios with IBOC-FM and
> DRM-AM if the radio will be a digital one. Manufactures
> thing AM is a stepchild anyway, so if it's just something
> they have to do so they can sell FM IBOC, they will. After
> about 6 years or so of getting radios in the hands of the
> public, stations can CHOOSE to go DRM. Music stations would
> be well served to make the switch earlier. If people could
> get decent audio quality, I contend more people would listen
> to AM music stations, even IF not everyone had a compatible
> radio. AM listership is so far down, with a few spoken-word
> exceptions, that there is little place for it to go but up.

From what I have heard, DRM is a digital only format. There is a hybrid mode - but it will splatter on adjacents just as bad as IBOC.

Just because it is European, it doesn't make it better.

 

[John_U]

>
> From what I have heard, DRM is a digital only format. There
> is a hybrid mode - but it will splatter on adjacents just as
> bad as IBOC.
>
That was the whole idea. It may be time to scrap analog AM just like analog TV and go straight digital.

 

[Les]

Let the riots begin!

> That was the whole idea. It may be time to scrap analog AM
> just like analog TV and go straight digital.

It's one thing to try to obsolete most of the TV sets in America
since anyone with cable or satellite can keep their analog sets
as long as they want. Those without those services can buy
set-top converters.

But try to convince an acne'd adolescent (12+) to haul some
kind of converter around with his/her boom box. Or try to
get an adult to glue a converter to the dashboard of his/her
(wow, I'm impressively PC today!) SUV.

An elegant technical proposition but politically???

It could work if DRM were introduced, compatible receivers
were distributed by government at ridiculously low prices
and a huge tax were put on the purchase of new analog receivers.

Shouldn't take more than 20-years or so to make it comfortable
for a politician or bureaucrat to force analog radio off the air.
<P ID="signature">______________
Happiness is like beer....you don't really buy it, you just rent it.</P>

 

[THEInsultant]

Re: Let the riots begin!

> > That was the whole idea. It may be time to scrap analog AM
>
> > just like analog TV and go straight digital.
>
> It's one thing to try to obsolete most of the TV sets in
> America
> since anyone with cable or satellite can keep their analog
> sets
> as long as they want. Those without those services can buy
>
> set-top converters.
>
> But try to convince an acne'd adolescent (12+) to haul some
> kind of converter around with his/her boom box. Or try to
> get an adult to glue a converter to the dashboard of his/her
>
> (wow, I'm impressively PC today!) SUV.
>
> An elegant technical proposition but politically???
>
> It could work if DRM were introduced, compatible receivers
> were distributed by government at ridiculously low prices
> and a huge tax were put on the purchase of new analog
> receivers.
>
> Shouldn't take more than 20-years or so to make it
> comfortable
> for a politician or bureaucrat to force analog radio off the
> air.
>

What I'm saying is make is manditory for the receiver manufactures to include DRM for AM in their IBOC FM tuners/radios. Let that go for a few years, then let stations choose to go all digital when they want to. Many would stay analog for many years to come, however, there would probably be some music stations that would be early adopters of going totally DRM. Let's face it. The AM band is nearly dead with the exception of a couple news-talk stations in each market. After there were a fair amount of radios out in the market, my guess is some of the lower rated stations would just switch over as they would likely get more listenership with being digital with a music format than catering to those that don't have the radio to get it. You're right in thinking it would take 20 years to make a total switch-over, however, I feel something like 6 years for some stations with some formats would be a likely possibility. Let the station owners decide. Just don't let the manufactures decide to not include it on digital radios. In fact, if they wanted to, include IBOC FM and AM, and DRM. Several years down the road people could toss that daytime only crap out the window that way.




<P ID="signature">______________
--- THE Insultant ---</P>

 

[Les]

could work if

> What I'm saying is make is manditory for the receiver
> manufactures to include DRM for AM in their IBOC FM
> tuners/radios. Let that go for a few years, then let
> stations choose to go all digital when they want to. Many
> would stay analog for many years to come, however, there
> would probably be some music stations that would be early
> adopters of going totally DRM. Let's face it. The AM band
> is nearly dead with the exception of a couple news-talk
> stations in each market. After there were a fair amount of
> radios out in the market, my guess is some of the lower
> rated stations would just switch over as they would likely
> get more listenership with being digital with a music format
> than catering to those that don't have the radio to get it.
> You're right in thinking it would take 20 years to make a
> total switch-over, however, I feel something like 6 years
> for some stations with some formats would be a likely
> possibility. Let the station owners decide. Just don't let
> the manufactures decide to not include it on digital radios.
> In fact, if they wanted to, include IBOC FM and AM, and
> DRM. Several years down the road people could toss that
> daytime only crap out the window that way.

Sounds decent.

Obstacles would be a single company with a monopoly on the technology jacking up transmission and reception products so high that many would be priced out. Think that can't happen?
<P ID="signature">______________
Happiness is like beer....you don't really buy it, you just rent it.</P>

 

[John_U]

Re: could work if

> Obstacles would be a single company with a monopoly on the
> technology jacking up transmission and reception products so
> high that many would be priced out. Think that can't
> happen?
>
We're not talking about a four letter acronym here are we

I am wondering (since we are already killing the sidebands with IBOC) and that since DRM can be fit (with some help) into a 10 Khz bandwidth; we put the DRM in the first adjacent and then at some future date just turn off the analog and slide the DRM over.

There are probably a ton of technical reasons it wouldn't work.

John

 

[Les]

Re: could work if

> There are probably a ton of technical reasons it wouldn't
> work.


Politically, I don't think anything is gonna be allowed to work.
Unless there's money in it for more than just one or two congresspersonae.
<P ID="signature">______________
Happiness is like beer....you don't really buy it, you just rent it.</P>

 

[dbdigital]

Re: could work if

> > What I'm saying is make is manditory for the receiver
> > manufactures to include DRM for AM in their IBOC FM
> > tuners/radios. Let that go for a few years, then let
> > stations choose to go all digital when they want to. Many
>
> > would stay analog for many years to come, however, there
> > would probably be some music stations that would be early
> > adopters of going totally DRM. Let's face it. The AM
> band
> > is nearly dead with the exception of a couple news-talk
> > stations in each market. After there were a fair amount
> of
> > radios out in the market, my guess is some of the lower
> > rated stations would just switch over as they would likely
>
> > get more listenership with being digital with a music
> format
> > than catering to those that don't have the radio to get
> it.
> > You're right in thinking it would take 20 years to make a
> > total switch-over, however, I feel something like 6 years
> > for some stations with some formats would be a likely
> > possibility. Let the station owners decide. Just don't
> let
> > the manufactures decide to not include it on digital
> radios.
> > In fact, if they wanted to, include IBOC FM and AM, and
> > DRM. Several years down the road people could toss that
> > daytime only crap out the window that way.
>
> Sounds decent.
>
> Obstacles would be a single company with a monopoly on the
> technology jacking up transmission and reception products so
> high that many would be priced out. Think that can't
> happen?
>
Isn't that what iBiquity is all about? It's already happening.

On their own website, the DRM Consortium recommends that radios be equipped with chipsets to decode both IBOC and DRM and I think that is a very good idea (heck, why not include AM Stereo as well?).

I'm frankly surprised that more people aren't alarmed and outraged at the idea of one company owning the digital transmission technology all AM/FM stations in the U.S. will be using for decades to come. And it's a technology no other country has adopted, further isolating the U.S. from the rest of the world.

Whatever flaws DRM has, at least it's open source and not subject to the license fees and whims of one company.

db

 

[JasonW]

Re: could work if

Why not just manage the AM band better and mandate higher minimal AM receiver quality standards? I've been in Miami, Atlanta, rural northern Georgia, Los Angeles, New York City, Washington DC, Anchorage, and Fairbanks (plus a lot of places in between while driving), and I've never been unable to get clear analog AM reception on either car receivers, table radios, or pocket radios.

Excellent AM receivers are readily available. The C. Crane Company's CC Radio, General Electric Super Radio, Sangean pocket radios such as the DT 200V, and the Lennox "Sports Radio" pocket receiver all have selective tuning, superb sensitivity, and warm, rich audio quality. I'm listening to KFBX 970 right now on my Sangean DT 200V. There's not a hint of static even though it's sitting less than a yard away from my computer's RF-noisy monitor. IBOC and DRM? Bah, digital, schmigital! It's just a "solution" running around in search of a problem. -- J. Jason Wentworth