And that's where the PPM can skew results. Let's say that 22 year old works in a factory or auto repair shop. The Radio is tuned to the Classic Rock station all day. That 22 year old probably didn't pick the station...
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November 2021 Trends
- Thread starter Rusty Bridges
- Start date
That's the difference between P1 and P2. You can see that information if you drill down into the data.
Once again, you'd be surprised. Younger people have great knowledge and respect for older music.
Lynyrd Skynyrd has a lot of people in their 20s and 30s at their farewell concerts. That's why they extended it.
But keep in mind those same salesmen have WYRK and WBLK in the arsenal. The online and syndicated platforms have a different group of salespeople, some based at Compass, who are looking at a national view, not just Buffalo. That's why it's good to have multiple revenue streams.
Almost every member of Skynyrd is dead. They were a poor man's Allman Brothers when they were alive.
In the Summer, you'll see kids at all kinds of Oldies concerts. Attending a live event is not exactly an accurate metric. Alternative Buffalo had "successful" Summer concerts and the format failed...
As I said, if you drill into the numbers (which you can't do) or if you engage with the listeners (which you don't do), you know the full picture.
If you can provide supporting data to your 85% number, other than your personal stereotype, show me.
12+ (or 6+ in PPM markets) is given freely by Nielsen, both shares and cume. So are daypart rankers. The rest is covered by contracts and restricted use.
Some people here who have access to deeper numbers can cautiously make some comparisons in the sales demos.
And it is not all about 25-54. Ethnic buys are mostly based on 18-49. There are lots of subset buys, too, such as Women 25-44 or Men 35-54 and the like. So even having the 25-54 numbers does not say it all.
Wrong. In 18-24 it averages (multi-book average) 4th. 5th in 19-34 and 18-49 and 3rd in 25-54.
Men and Women? I would be very skeptical of this data if I was an advertiser targeting that age group. You have stated that Rock is a dead genre...
You're skeptical because it doesn't agree with your stereotype. You have no actual data to prove otherwise.
You are significantly underestimating the multi-generational appeal of classic rock. This is anecdotal, but plenty of people (mostly men) I know under 30 listen to classic rock, either on the radio, streaming services, and some combination. It's, in large part due to familiarity, as they grew up to their parents listening to it and the music is also part of pop culture (e.g. video games, movies, etc.)
This is a great summary on music testing, and why stations play what they play. These are the facts.
The only thing I caught that I question is "testing all the possible songs with listeners" . They do not test all the possible songs. They test the ones they want to.
I remember when I was at YRK in the 80's, on a music test, the song "Mountain Music" from Alabama was thru the roof in testing. Like #1 by far. 3 months later, it was a dud according to the "Music test".
There were also songs that were never even presented to the people at the auditorium testing. These were not songs written and sang by Jimmy Bob in Stykersville, these were huge artists at that time. George Strait, Clint Black, Randy Travis, Barbara Mandrell, KT Oslin, Restless Heart, Steve Wariner.........These artists were huge at that time (86-90), but the songs by these artists we not tested at all. Yet, Alabama Mountain Music, which is a core of any classic country went from on fire, to nill 12 weeks later.
I am not a fan of music testing at all, it's killed the industry, along with horrible consultants, research, etc. These are the same people who said HD Radio was gonna be the biggest thing ever. These are the same people who still thing the magic key is 3 breaks an hour, :20, :40, :50, because if you miss that top of the hour music sweep, your damned for life.
I have said this before, Nielsen is the only metric we have as an industry for measurement, but as God it my witness, I just looked at a diary last month that gave WSPQ is Springville all there quarter hours, and raved about them. The station has not been on the air in what, 5 years????????? That doesn't sound like the type of scientific research that's gonna cure cancer.
The testing, the consulting, the research, the metrics like Nielsen......it really is all BullS*IT . (I have to put an asterisk because nobody would be able to figure out the word I said)
It's all a money grab folks.. Do I love the rating when my station does great? Of course I do. Do I hate them when they are down? Of course I do.....but whatever they are, deep down, I know it's all hot, steaming BullS*IT. ( There's that asterisk again, just to keep everyone on their toes.)
Which is why we don't base airplay of classic songs on 40 year old tests. Instead we test classic songs now. People respond to music they like at that time, and they are not predictors of songs that will hang on for power gold 40 years later. How do you think Van Morrison tested as a current? Not very good.
Also at the time, the country chart moved a whole lot quicker than it does now. Back then, it was possible for a big star to have three or four #1s in a year. Garth did it. Friends in Low Places flew up the chart in 8 weeks, stayed there for four weeks, and was gone a few weeks later. One consultant at the time complained that country radio was eating its young, so they slowed down the charts.
BTW Mountain Music tests well now, but it's not Alabama's highest testing song, nor is it the highest testing song from the 80s.
That is a pure station staff level decision. In my experience running the research department of a larger broadcaster, we encouraged stations to add plenty of "what if" songs such as crossovers, older songs that might be "anthems" and, particularly, songs that got play on new media sources.
For example, one LA station usually found 280 to 320 songs as playable, but it tested around 600 four times a year. Unless those "what if" songs did miserably on the first try, we might put them in a second test. And some songs that did not test a year or two ago might work today: they could have rested enough or "come of age" in the meantime.
Burn. The best thing to do with those is rest the songs and try again in the next test.
Again, local decisions or prejudices. The first thing a PD who does testing needs to remember is that their personal tastes have nothing to do with the process. Test as many possible songs as can be included, and the listeners will cull out the duds for you.
All music testing does is give you a broad picture of what listeners like and dislike. Inside a station, we loose perspective because we hear all the songs way too often and one PD is simply one person, not the whole audience.
Some did. Most of us realized that it was not going to work with no home radios, no portables, and limited new car options.
Yet some of us came up with ways to monetize the services, such as foreign language formats leased to people anxious to serve immigrant groups like Persians, Armenians, Russians and those from India, China, Vietnam and other Asian nations.
In PPM markets, we either place the breaks at :00 and :30 or :15 and :45. You are talking about diary markets, and those "middle of the quarter hour" breaks have been proven by many of us reviewing millions of diaries over the years and seeing when people listened.
Betcha' the listener was in their 70's or beyond. I used to see an occasional similar instance in my 40 years of reviewing diaries and I found mentions of morning show hosts who had died a decade or more ago and even non-Hispanics listening to a Spanish language station that had not been in English for 15 years.
We even joked that "every 80-year-old in Chicago things everything they listen to is WGN".
My best example, which I mentioned before, was my first music test in the mid-70's. The station I joined was the lowest rated FM in a market with 116 stations in the survey area. We were playing way too many songs. Knowing the format, I decided to score the first 100 songs myself, before the test. 20 or so songs I thought were great tested as stiffs. I was off by more than 20% on half the songs. We did the test, implemented, cut the playlist and jumped to #1 in one book... and we had twice the share of the #2 station. We tested regularly, and the result was 22 years at #1 despite many challenges.
To quote again what Owen Charlebois told me once in Columbia: we have three kinds of clients at Arbitron. There are those who went up who know they are programming geniuses. There are those who stay the same, who don't say anything, and those who went down who know that ratings are rigged and inaccurate.
I have NOT said that.
Current rock is a declining game because growing percentages of teens and young adults are into rhythm-based music; this has been going on for over two decades.
Alternative has become fragmented so it's not a particularly viable "one-for-many" radio format.
Classic rock has become the prevailing genre, as it appeals to rock fans of all ages because it is a monolithic genre and has somehow become liked by those younger people (under 40) who do enjoy rock.
In every market, classic rock stations do well in 18-34, 25-54, 35-44 and other under-55 demos. As has always been the case, rock has generally been a 60% male, 40% female format and that is generally true today as well.
I can't be skeptical of data that is proven in hundreds of markets.
Based on what you and A are saying, WBUF is doing something seriously wrong. They should have a gold mine instead of being dead in the water with a 1.9 share.
Rock has many sub genres. Not everyone wants to hear Skynyrd and Zeppelin once an hour. David has railed against AAA formats as being too old. The data he provided disproves his own beliefs...
All you know is the 12+numbers. You wouldn't know if it's a gold mine.
AAA is not the same as Classic Rock. AAA is an old-leaning format that only seems to do well either on non-commercial stations or where there is a heritage station, such as Denver and Chicago and Portland.
Classic Rock is a mainstream format, defined by present day research and localization (more Capricorn in the South, for example). There is ample consensus on a larger library of songs.
Seen another way, Classic Rock is the matured version of Lee Abrams' AOR format from the 70's.
Ask Buddy. He knows WBUF isn't...
A few points about Classic Rock and 97 Rock. The point has been made that many 18-34s heard this music as a result of their parents' choices while growing up. Arguably, this is correct, but there's more to it. A substantial number of 18-34 year old males construe Classic Rock as "new," which is to say, it's not as dated, burned or shopworn to an 18-34 male as it is to, say, a 59 year old (father.)
Additionally, most 18-34 year old Classic Rock listeners who also cume Active Rock or Country have come to understand that Classic Rock is the underpinning of those genres. The young rockers and Country artists often give testimony to the fact that they listened to Zep or CCR, the Stones, the Who, Skynyrd and the Allman Brothers. Those Classic Rock bands influenced their creative process as musicians and song writers, as well as their stage presence.
97 Rock is at times, tiresome. But it's proven to be resilient. It's a legacy Classic Rock station whose personalities, past and present, are recognized for their contribution to the station and the format. Furthermore, it has consistently kept pace with its listeners and the community. It's also one of the most localized Classic Rock stations in the country, regardless of market size. It's also one of the most successful.
The decision by Townsquare to enter the Classic Rock race by flipping WBUF to its present position is not entirely without merit, however the execution of the decision left much to be desired. The imaging, the presentation, and the overall execution of WBUF pale when compared to 97 Rock. WBUF came out of the starting gates a few lengths behind the lead horse and never made up ground going into the second turn. If we're now in the stretch, WBUF is in the back of the pack. No amount of whipping will get the horse to show, place or win.
Posters and readers here should understand that listeners in the Buffalo-Niagara Falls market have seen and heard WBUF challenge 97 Rock before when Howard Stern was doing mornings on the Infinity stations. 97 Rock withstood that challenge and not only survived, but grew. WBUF's most recent assault on 97 Rock's legacy is akin to WBUF bringing a knife to a gun fight.
Additionally, most 18-34 year old Classic Rock listeners who also cume Active Rock or Country have come to understand that Classic Rock is the underpinning of those genres. The young rockers and Country artists often give testimony to the fact that they listened to Zep or CCR, the Stones, the Who, Skynyrd and the Allman Brothers. Those Classic Rock bands influenced their creative process as musicians and song writers, as well as their stage presence.
97 Rock is at times, tiresome. But it's proven to be resilient. It's a legacy Classic Rock station whose personalities, past and present, are recognized for their contribution to the station and the format. Furthermore, it has consistently kept pace with its listeners and the community. It's also one of the most localized Classic Rock stations in the country, regardless of market size. It's also one of the most successful.
The decision by Townsquare to enter the Classic Rock race by flipping WBUF to its present position is not entirely without merit, however the execution of the decision left much to be desired. The imaging, the presentation, and the overall execution of WBUF pale when compared to 97 Rock. WBUF came out of the starting gates a few lengths behind the lead horse and never made up ground going into the second turn. If we're now in the stretch, WBUF is in the back of the pack. No amount of whipping will get the horse to show, place or win.
Posters and readers here should understand that listeners in the Buffalo-Niagara Falls market have seen and heard WBUF challenge 97 Rock before when Howard Stern was doing mornings on the Infinity stations. 97 Rock withstood that challenge and not only survived, but grew. WBUF's most recent assault on 97 Rock's legacy is akin to WBUF bringing a knife to a gun fight.
I don't think we're in the stretch yet. It's only been a year since the change. When the change happened a year ago, I compared it to a similar situation in Boston, with a heritage classic rock station WZLX owned by iHeart was challenged by WBOS. That latter station used an imported morning show from Beasley's Detroit station. It's been more than two years and WBOS is still way behind WZLX.
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