NOVEMBER NUMBERS

[Parttimer]

DVE and 104.7 tied for #1 12+ thanks to the election...

The Fan has lost 40% of their audience since baseball ended. They are now only tied for 8th in their key demo of men 25-54. Madden is #1 in men 18-34 in PM drive. It will be interesting to see if the Fan rebounds now that the election is over..I've thought all along that those listeners shifted to News/Talk.

970's highest rated show is Mike & Mike from ESPN.

Star is cutting into Kiss' hold on the young female demos. Mark Anderson has dramatically improved Star's sound since he took over as PD.

Christian Rock K-Love on 98.3 is growing rapidly. They are now 4th in women 18-34, and tied with Y108 for 3rd women 25-54. This is happening elsewhere also... in Orlando, non-commercial Christian WPOZ has been #1 overall a couple of times and is always near the top.

WAMO is tied for 10th in women 18-34 with WLTJ, which continues to perform very poorly. LTJ really needs to think about a format change (and part of their problem is that their own worst enemy is right down the hall at BOB-FM).

 

[Boss Radio]

It will be interesting to see if the Fan rebounds now that the election is over..I've thought all along that those listeners shifted to News/Talk.

Possible, I guess, but there was plenty of election talk before September, especially with the Republican primaries being contested. Highly unusual for sports talk to take this big a hit in football season.

And how comfortable will the new PD be making changes after just a month or so on the job? The original three-year talent contracts come due on Feb. 1 so he has decisions to make.

 

[Pratte4Life]

A recent thread on here asked if conservative talk was on the way out. Now we see it is No. 1 in the market.

Just sayin'.

Some thoughts on the Fan-

One thing about The Fan that I wonder about is the impact of the program director. It seems the demise of The Fan's ratings also coincides with the departure of Terry Foxx to Atlanta.

Mr. Foxx might not have been the most popular PD in town. This board, for instance, called him out for not showing up at Fan remotes and promotions, and he was not from Pittsburgh. He hired lots of out-of-town talent and left guys like Ellis Cannon and Stan and Guy on the waiver wire.

But what has happened as far as I can tell is a change from caller driven to host driven shows since Foxx left. I will admit some of the caller driven topics in the early days of The Fan seemed less than compelling- "What was the best mustache you can remember in sports?"

But people called in.

Remember what Ron Fimrite wrote in perhaps the greatest article ever written on Pittsburgh sports, the famous "Two Champions From The City of Champions" Sports Illustrated piece from 1979 where Willie Stargell and Terry Bradshaw were named "Sportsmen of the Year?"

"[Pittsburgh] is a place so intimate . . . talk show callers can become overnight celebrities."

( http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1126426/1/index.htm - find the line at the end of the first page)

The thought here is that when The Fan was more caller driven, it related to the audience more. One of the criticisms of The Fan is that so many of the hosts came from New York. But at least when the station was more caller driven under Foxx, the New York hosts were balanced by Pittsburghers calling in.

For an example of what I'm talking about, yesterday when I listened in I heard Andrew Filipponi talk about his heartbreak in watching the Syracuse Orangemen lose in the 1995 NCAA Tournament when he was 9.

I think Filipponi is very bright and talented, but that topic made me change the dial. It was a topic that had no interest to an audience outside of upstate New York.

But a year and a half ago Filipponi was asking callers to call in and tell him about Roberto Clemente. It may not have advanced contemporary sports discourse, but the lines were filled and the stories were great. Heck, I called in, even though I am not nearly old enough to remember Roberto Clemente!

But the point is- asking the callers to lead with a topic that related to his audience worked. Asking a 26-year-old man from Buffalo to lead had Filipponi fall back on stories about rooting for Syracuse as a little boy and that didn't work.

I realize that host-driven radio has been the trend in sports talk radio since ESPN Radio came on the scene in 1991. But in this instance, what its done is taken the station away from their audience and more to the talent their rivals on WBGG refer to as "carpetbagging hosts."

The way The Fan is formatted now, it doesn't seem as if a caller could be an "overnight celebrity" these days.

Furthermore, many, not all but many, of "Pittsburgh born-and-bred" hosts on the station seem to react with great negativity towards the city in which their audience resides. That works for Mark Madden. The other guys who do it are copy cats.

One of the ways WFAN in New York has been able to succeed throughout the years is by embracing their callers and audience. If 93.7 The Fan can do that, I believe they will not only reverse their downward trend, but they will also be the top rated station in town.

 

[Boss Radio]

Madden is #1 in men 18-34 in PM drive.

Seems like he ought to be. I don't know what else that group would find palatable in PM drive. DVE's music and Sean McDowell would probably appeal more to the 20-year-old's father.

 

[F.M.Hertz]

Good talk show hosts shouldn't ever depend on callers.

I'm not saying that the Fan has good talk show hosts, but a talk show host is hired to express his/her views. For example, the Glenn Becks, Rush Limbaughs, etc. do pretty well without the need for callers. Rush is famous for not taking callers until he is deep into the 2nd hour. Another example is The Fan's "brother" [ahem] station a few steps down the hall. Almost every host will give out the phone-in number as soon as they crack the mic coming out of the news or a spot break. Simply put, talk show callers are a crutch and if a host throws out the number, he/she isn't doing their job in developing a point. They also probably didn't do enough research on their topic, and yes, are mailing it in. IMHO.

Some callers seem to have bigger egos than the hosts. I read a story in the trades where a producer said that a regular caller demanded that she be put on the air "because it was her right." The kicker to the story was that there was only 1 minute left in the show and the host said that he was wrapping up and couldn't take any more calls. Calling a talk show is a privledge. Unfortunately, this isn't the case at the "Grandaddy of Them All" that lets a Cookie Lady talk about what she had for dinner, and a Clown tell jokes that weren't funny in 1924.

[stepping down from soapbox]

 

[Parttimer]

A recent thread on here asked if conservative talk was on the way out. Now we see it is No. 1 in the market.

Just sayin'.

There won't be another presidential election for 4 years... I'm hearing that some of the major ownership groups see the format as maybe not being sustainable. Clear Channel abandoned oldies as a format a few years ago for similar reasons... an aging listener base with little possibility of attracting new listeners.

And by the way, 104.7's cume was 1/3 less than WLTJ's, and only slightly higher than the Fan, which had a 3-share. It's the same people, they just listened longer.

But we'll see.

Good talk show hosts shouldn't ever depend on callers.

I'm not saying that the Fan has good talk show hosts, but a talk show host is hired to express his/her views. For example, the Glenn Becks, Rush Limbaughs, etc. do pretty well without the need for callers.

Jim Rome has a great bit on why he doesn't take many calls. He says, "the easiest thing to do is "calls, calls, calls...nobody takes more calls than me'." He equates that with laziness and a lack of preparation. In particular, it is clear that the Fan's midday show does ZERO homework (just listen to them do football picks... who you pick isn't interesting, the segment is about why you're picking them... maybe the best in the business at this is Colin Cowherd at ESPN).

And if you're going to take calls, screen them... and I don't mean "what's your name and where are you calling from". Talk to the callers off air, only let the good ones get through.

It isn't rocket science.

 

[Pratte4Life]

Talk stations always have lower CUMES. I'm not totally convinced that the higher CUMES from music stations aren't because it's the same listeners there, too, they just bounce around from, say, Y108 to the Frogs, or WDVE to BOB, when the commercials come on.

You say conservative talk is aging, and I'm not going to tell you that Sean Hannity and Justin Beiber are one and the same.

However, another thing I saw about 104.7 and their rise in November was that Andy Dean replaced Michael Savage at that same time.

So before we lump oldies and conservative talk together, remember a 20something replaced a guy who is turning 70 and the result was the station did better than ever before- including the 2004 and 2008 Presidential Election seasons.

 

[F.M.Hertz]

Really? Talk stations always have lower cumes? Perhaps you haven't seen the latest ratings in some other markets. Let me embellish:

Los Angeles: Market #2
KFI-AM - #2 station in the market. [ding dong]

Chicago: Market #3
WBBM-AM - #1 station in the market.
WGN-AM - #3 in the market.
WLS-AM - #5 in the market.

San Francisco: Market #4
KNBR-AM - #1 in the market.
KQED-FM - #2 in the market.
KCBS-AM - #3 in the market.

Washington, DC: Market #7
WAMV-AM - #1 in the market.
WTOP-FM - #2 in the market.

Atlanta, GA: Market #8
WSB-AM - #2 in the market.

Music radio listeners are more apt to stay with a station because of the music. If someone is listening in the office, they're not going to get up from their desks or stop what they're doing every 10 minutes to change the dial. Music radio is more a part of the environment like wallpaper than talk radio where the listener pays a little more attention to it.

And WPGB gets higher numbers the month before one of the most crucial elections in our lifetime beacuse an unknown 20-something replaces Michael Savage? 104.7's numbers came from Beck, Limbaugh, and Hannity.

Please, Pratte, check your facts the next time you want to opine.

 

[F.M.Hertz]

By the way, Andy Dean is 31.

 

[Pratte4Life]

By the way, Andy Dean is 31.

Yeah. Thirty one is not close to 29. It is, in fact, the new 70.

My point is shattered. Sorry.

 

[Alton]

There won't be another presidential election for 4 years... I'm hearing that some of the major ownership groups see the format as maybe not being sustainable. Clear Channel abandoned oldies as a format a few years ago for similar reasons... an aging listener base with little possibility of attracting new listeners.

And by the way, 104.7's cume was 1/3 less than WLTJ's, and only slightly higher than the Fan, which had a 3-share. It's the same people, they just listened longer.

But we'll see.

Parttimer, isn't that why they got rid of Jay Bohannon as PD and hired a new pd because CC wants to make 104.7 more sports oriented? I don't see any drastic sports changes as of yet, but I hear down the road, there's real estate there for it.

 

[Pratte4Life]

Q

Furthermore, Hertz, I was discussing CUME, and the figures you are quoting are AQE. It is my understanding that CUME is the amount of listeners tuned in during a period of time, whereas AQE is the percentage of radios tuned into a specific station.

We share the same idea on talk radio. The listeners are more apt to pay more attention to it. Hence, this is one of the reasons I am skeptical the format is going away, which to be honest sounds almost like something the left, who would love to see the format weakened or go away, is trying to float out there.

If I can get three listeners who will pay attention to my commercials, isn't that at least as desirable as nine who will tune in and out and punch the buttons in their car and inflate the CUME that way?

I am well aware the Presidential election had an influence in 104.7's book. Never said it wasn't, and to be honest I'll be surprised if it remains No. 1 in December.

However, the passions and polarizations of the electorate were just as alive in the 2004 and 2008 election seasons as they are now. And 104.7 wasn't No. 1 in those books then. This simply doesn't speak well of the arguement the format is fading.

In fact, Nov. has 23 days after the election (I do not know if the entire November book is calculated from the 1st to the 30th, or if it is in fact what the stations did in October and the ratings are released a month late, or whatever. If someone would like to enlighten us, I welcome their input). Now, did conservatives turn to 104.7 during that time to lick their wounds? If that is the case, then again the idea that conservative radio is going to go away doesn't add up. Yes, some of the audience would figure to fade away or have passions rechanneled, but I would think conservatives will have plenty of a need to lick wounds for the next four years.

As for Dean being an unknown, he probably was better known nationally because of his appearances on "The Apprentice" than most talk show hosts are when they debut, but I'll let that one slide.

So my facts are there.

Your comprehension skills? Less so.

 

[F.M.Hertz]

I brought up the numbers to prove that talk radio is still is a viable format.

What I have a problem is the thinking that a unknown who replaced Savage brought huge ratings to 104.7. Impossible. Someone who's on late night is going to bring in all of its listeners? That's one of radio's lowest listened periods in the broadcast day compared with 10A to 6P. Andy Dean is not the savior of WPGB. He's only on 80 stations across the country, and was probbaly snapped up at the last minute when Savage suddenly bolted. I wouldn't be surprised if Savage comes back to 'PGB as his new arrangement starts tomorrow. You're absolutley right about Dean. If he was never on "The Apprentice," he'd be still out on the streets looking for work. He bankrolled his success on that show and by working for Trump to make a name for himself. And good for him, someone of a younger demo who is building a successful career as a host. I've always said that talk stations should take chances on a host or two that's under 40 instead of a middle aged white guy. Anyone reading this over at KD?

You can obviously talk cume all you want, and that makes a difference, but stations sell inventory based on ratings. Yeah, I could have a great cume, but if I'm number 5 in the market that isn't going to help me sell commercial inventory to an advertiser. People look at ratings, and that is part of the orginal argument on this topic: WPGB tied with WDVE for the top spot in the latest ratings. If I'm an advertiser the first thing I'm looking for is how your station ranks in the market. Stations also tout the rankings. When was the last time you heard a promo like this: "WXXX, Anytown's #1 choice for guys between 21 and 32 listening on Tuesdays in February between 10:15 and 10:32 in the morning when they're in their pickups driving to the hardware store to pick up some parts and grab an early lunch at the local drive-in before going back to work. Turn it up, and rip the knob off!" OR "More housewives listen to the KXXX at the dentists' while they wait to get a root canal on Mondays in January between 1:43 pm and 1:52 pm." Doesn't happen.

True. If I'm in the car, I'm going to punch buttons if a spotbreak happens, but sometimes I'm not because I either like the station or I'm teased into hearing for something coming out of the break. So you're point is that all radio listeners are in the car? People who listen to radio in the cars is a big part of listening, but you're discounting people in stores and offices that have a radio on where they are a captive audience. Also, if I'm working in the driveway at my house and I have the radio on in the garage, and can hear it (I have a short driveway), I'm not going to run all the way to my radio to turn the dial.

Yes, talk radio won't go away, especially conservative talk. Perhaps conservative hosts who lured listeners before the election kept them afterwards because they had something compelling to say, or maybe listeners wanted reaction and analysis to what happened on November 6, where a lot of polls said that Obama would lose in a huge landslide. The fears that conservative talk going away is from those who probaby want the Fairness Doctrine brought back. Pairing a liberal point of view with a conservative point of view, yeah, that seems to work. Name one successful liberal radio talk host. Maybe that's why Renda pulled the plug on WPTT's format and went with all $, all the time.

 

[Pratte4Life]

Hertz- I don't want to have bad blood with you, or anyone else for that matter. One poster in particular came on here picking fights years ago with often times bad information he insisted was true and I always thought the forum was the worse for it.

But I do know my facts and it seems to me you're trying to attack me with information we both agree on. In all honesty, I think we're on the same side here.

I never said Andy Dean was the savior. What I am trying to figure out is why 104.7 was ranked No. 1 in Nov. when in other presidential election months in the station's history they weren't.

The one lineup change 104.7 made was Dean. But you're completely taking my mention of him out of context.

Now, I don't know what kind of a factor Dean was/is. I will suggest that having some young blood might have been a shot in the arm for the station, and perhaps it even helped out other shows. Gone was the crazy old guy (who I happen to be fond of, but regardless) for a hip younger one. That can have a trickle down effect to the other shows.

Other factors as to why 104.7 may have done so well in my next post.

 

[F.M.Hertz]

I don't mean any bad blood, and I'm not looking to pick fights. In fact, I like the healthy exchange of ideas, thoughts, and cogitations on this forum. Althought we've probably never met, you're the type that I'd love to have a few milshakes with and talk about radio. [offering peace pipe and olive branch]

I had a feeling that WPGB would kick butt in November, and the numbers prove it. Now, the sales guys in the Golden Flash Cube will be armed with numbers to sell the station on. My thoughts are that they have three of the most popular shows in the country on their schedule. My other point, our society is based on rankings, and a subject like cume is a topic that mostly broadcasters use. Watch any commercial set during the football games today. One car company will tell you they have the #1 truck overall, and an appliance store will tout that they are #1 for appliances. All that matters is who's top of the heap.

To be real about the whole deal, the ratings are a joke. It's more of a joke now ever since Arbitron went with the method that excludes the rankings of stations that don't subscribe. If all the stations were used, KDKA would probably #10 in the market. I believe that the Renda stations and Steel City cluster aren't posted becase tey don't subscribe.

To reiterate my point, and I agree with you wholeheartedly, young blood is needed in this market. The young'uns aren't moving away like they did in the 80s and 90s. In fact, Pittsburgh is becoming a destination. If I was a transplant to this area and I heard some of the offerings in this market I would stick with my iPod or listen to other stations across the country over the internets. There isn't one breakout host. I've said on here before, and I'll say it again, a station like KD could totally return to dominance by thinking younger and by putting a younger sound on the air. What I mean are hosts that are under 40 (and not producers). They had a chance with Kevin Miller, but management made him a scapegoat. Plus, they didn't promote him enough. He could have been a huge factor in turning the station around. What do we have now? A midday talk host retread who interviewed an author of a book on dogs of famous generals from World War II last week! I'm not kidding. Rush was talking about the Fiscal Cliff, and Pintek was talking about dogs! As Uncle Beano (R.I.P) would exclaim: Unbelievable!

 

[Pratte4Life]

Hertz, you do realize I wasn't the guy trying to make the arguement that 104.7's lower CUME than music station XYZ was a negative factor, right?

We got that settled? Because, again, you're coming on here as if you're trying to refute me, when in fact we agree on almost everything you've written and in fact a lot of what you've written I wrote first earlier in this thread.

That said- what I am trying to analyze is why this year's presidential election would propel 104.7 to No. 1 when they weren't in 2004 and 2008.

Here are some other thoughts-

1. In 2004, Rush was still on KDKA. Although I was told Neil Bortz actually beat out Rush in the ratings locally during this time (somebody double check that, but I remember hearing it), there was more of a choice back then than there is now.

2. In 2004 and in 2008, 104.7 still had a sports content with Ellis Cannon and, in 2008, the Pirates. I'm trying to remember when Pitt was there; they've bounced around so much over the past 15 years I can't recall when exactly they left 96.9 for 104.7 and then to 93.7.

The thought here is that if you want to hear politics, you want to hear politics. You don't want to wait until E is done to hear politics.

3. The weakness of other stations.

I think I agree with what you're saying, F.M. Especially with Miller. I was out of town when he was here for the most part, and what I remember about him most was a bunch of left-leaning posters lambasting him for being conservative.

The other thing I remember about him was listening the day Myron Cope died. You wouldn't think KDKA would offer the best coverage of that, but they did. Miller understood the story, brought on some of his contemporaries as guests, had callers offer their best Myron Cope stories.

Meanwhile Mark Madden, then on 1250, led off his show talking about something that happened on the Penguins' team bus. When he got on to Cope, he extended his feud with him fueled by his own desire to have Cope's legacy for his own career. First he said he felt the Terrible Towel wave Pitt was going to do in Cope's honor at that night's basketball game was in poor taste. Then Mark made another dismissive comment or two before moving on. And that was it on Cope's own station.

Joe Bendel, to his credit, did talk about Cope. But you could tell he wasn't a big listener ("I remember calling up his show once to talk about goaltending" was one comment) and even had one wacko caller scream out "He was an old drunk who is burning in hell!" before cutting her off.

I always felt Miller was one of KDKA's top talents. He deserved better than the short shaft he was given here.

 

[cingram]

Congratulations to WBGG on their 0.6 share. They actually may have passed Frankie Day this month.

Guess we'll never know.

C.

 

[Boss Radio]

You can obviously talk cume all you want, and that makes a difference, but stations sell inventory based on ratings. Yeah, I could have a great cume, but if I'm number 5 in the market that isn't going to help me sell commercial inventory to an advertiser. People look at ratings, and that is part of the orginal argument on this topic: WPGB tied with WDVE for the top spot in the latest ratings. If I'm an advertiser the first thing I'm looking for is how your station ranks in the market. Stations also tout the rankings. When was the last time you heard a promo like this: "WXXX, Anytown's #1 choice for guys between 21 and 32 listening on Tuesdays in February between 10:15 and 10:32 in the morning when they're in their pickups driving to the hardware store to pick up some parts and grab an early lunch at the local drive-in before going back to work. Turn it up, and rip the knob off!" OR "More housewives listen to the KXXX at the dentists' while they wait to get a root canal on Mondays in January between 1:43 pm and 1:52 pm." Doesn't happen.

Agencies pay no attention to the total listeners 6+ numbers. It doesn't mean a thing to them. They're trying to identify demographics that match the target audience of whatever product or service they're selling so, yes, they do study the kind of detailed information you're spoofing. Bigger agencies have entire departments that analyze these numbers so they can tell where the money is going to be most effectively spent.

 

[Parttimer]

Really? Talk stations always have lower cumes? Perhaps you haven't seen the latest ratings in some other markets. Let me embellish:

Los Angeles: Market #2
KFI-AM - #2 station in the market. [ding dong]

Pratte is correct.
Station Nov 12 Cume
KIIS-F 5.5 3,605,600
KFI 5.3 1,280,600
KBIG-F 5.0 3,220,300
KOST 4.3 3,007,200

Chicago: Market #3
WBBM-AM - #1 station in the market.
WGN-AM - #3 in the market.
WLS-AM - #5 in the market.

WVAZ 5.5 1,055,100
WBBM 5.5 1,895,200
WGN 4.5 740,700
WOJO 4.3 903,000
WLS 4.1 675,700

WBBM is not a long-form talk station, but rather all-news like WINS in NY.

San Francisco: Market #4
KNBR-AM - #1 in the market.
KQED-FM - #2 in the market.
KCBS-AM - #3 in the market.

KNBR 8.1 1,506,700
KQED-F 5.7 823,800
KCBS 5.4 1,076,900
KMVQ-F 4.4 1,466,600

KNBR is a sports station and carries Giants baseball.
KQED is NPR.
KCBS is all-news like WBBM and WINS.
KMVQ is CHR.

Washington, DC: Market #7
WAMV-AM - #1 in the market.
WTOP-FM - #2 in the market.

WAMU 8.4 661,800
WTOP-F 8.2 1,232,300
WIHT 7.2 1,308,000

WAMU is NPR owned by American University.
WTOP is all-news like WBBM, WINS, and KCBS.
WIHT is CHR.

Atlanta, GA: Market #8
WSB-AM - #2 in the market.

WVEE 8.6 1,182,000
WSB 8.3 990,400
WALR-F 7.0 970,700
WAMJ 6.5 888,900
WSB-F 6.2 1,392,200

WALR and WAMJ are Urban AC, another traditionally low-cume high-TSL format.
WSB-FM is AC.

Please, Pratte, check your facts the next time you want to opine.

Well, those are the facts.

And it reinforces my original point, that conservative long-form talk shows have a narrow audience that stays all day. They're old and getting older and owners don't think they can grow it long term.

Parttimer, isn't that why they got rid of Jay Bohannon as PD and hired a new pd because CC wants to make 104.7 more sports oriented? I don't see any drastic sports changes as of yet, but I hear down the road, there's real estate there for it.

That's what I've heard as well.

 

[Parttimer]

Re: Q

Furthermore, Hertz, I was discussing CUME, and the figures you are quoting are AQE. It is my understanding that CUME is the amount of listeners tuned in during a period of time, whereas AQE is the percentage of radios tuned into a specific station.

Cume is the number of people who tune in to a particular station over the month, AQH is a computation of number of listeners and how long they listen.

When two stations have similar AQH numbers and one of those has a dramatically lower cume, it means the same people listen for very long periods of time. CHR typically has people who stick around for a few songs, talk stations hope to hold people for longer times. The problem at the Fan, for instance, appears to be more that people aren't staying with the station as long as they had been previously.